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pm713 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 da001 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.

You mean they would use a space ship built in a Forge World to unleash an Exterminatus weapon made in a Forge World upon a Forge World?

What would stop the Admech fleet to do the same on Terra? Oh, I know, the void shields the Forge Worlds built and the Mechanicus installed there to stop such attacks.

However, I agree with you. The Imperium has a lot of weaponary and countless recruits. It would be a massacre but my bets are on Terra.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

Well I imagine the big defensive guns on Luna stop that happening along with all the ships the Imperium already has. Just because you made it doesn't mean it won't blow you up....it does mean nobody else makes it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Mechanicum. Because without them the Imperium can't even fire their own guns, let alone fly their own ships or build any new technology.

But how does that stop them winning? It does mean that the whole Imperium becomes a place where a Lasgun is a rare thing because hardly any are made and whats broken stays broken which would lead to the collapse of the Imperium and probably the death of the human race. But after they beat the Mechanicus.

Because I'm not sure they can even run the ships to transport the troops to invade the Admech Forge Worlds without the Admech priests as part of the crew.

Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But rather I've never seen anything pointing to the Imperium being able to maintain their fusion reactors without tech priests in the generatorium or whatever the gak it's called in false latin.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

But they can make them work the generator or trick them.
But not outnumber them and the entire Imperium which is why the Ad Mech almost can't win.

Almost can't win? Where's the almost in it?

That's me not giving someone the chance to rage and call me narrow minded.

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Bullets without soldiers aren't that great either. Between soldierless bullets and bulletless soldiers the second one wins.

but the Admec have bodies, people live on forge worlds and furthermore they can made robots (although perhaps not full men of iron)

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Bullets without soldiers aren't that great either. Between soldierless bullets and bulletless soldiers the second one wins.

but the Admec have bodies, people live on forge worlds and furthermore they can made robots (although perhaps not full men of iron)

Not if you compare it to the IoM and most of them are just workers not actual soldiers. Which takes even more time and they still get drowned in lasfire.

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Bullets without soldiers aren't that great either. Between soldierless bullets and bulletless soldiers the second one wins.

but the Admec have bodies, people live on forge worlds and furthermore they can made robots (although perhaps not full men of iron)

Not if you compare it to the IoM and most of them are just workers not actual soldiers. Which takes even more time and they still get drowned in lasfire.

and we get back to the transport issue. human wave attacks with a few lasguns might be able to conquer a city, but they are kind of out of luck when they need to conquer something on another planet. More outmoded when that planet is in another solar system. The Soviet Union had lots of men, and lots of simple guns, but was never able to cross oceans.

The Void Dragon.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Void Dragon.

Which the Mechanicum may or may not know about, and which is most definitely bound within the deepest depths of Mars by the will of the Emperor himself, IIRC.

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Bullets without soldiers aren't that great either. Between soldierless bullets and bulletless soldiers the second one wins.

but the Admec have bodies, people live on forge worlds and furthermore they can made robots (although perhaps not full men of iron)

Not if you compare it to the IoM and most of them are just workers not actual soldiers. Which takes even more time and they still get drowned in lasfire.

Except they can still travel
and we get back to the transport issue. human wave attacks with a few lasguns might be able to conquer a city, but they are kind of out of luck when they need to conquer something on another planet. More outmoded when that planet is in another solar system. The Soviet Union had lots of men, and lots of simple guns, but was never able to cross oceans.

pm713 wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

But they can make them work the generator or trick them.
But not outnumber them and the entire Imperium which is why the Ad Mech almost can't win.

Force them? How is a random Joe Blow guard forcing an AdMech going to know whether the Adept in question is invoking the ritual to power up the engines or to overload the ship's power generator?
For that matter, how would a captain or anyone else not of the Mechanicus know? No Mechanicus would ever tell anyone outside the Mechanicus anything about such deeply held secrets! For another, how do you force someone who will logically and without emotion calculate that his own chances of survival are pretty much nil anyway, but that an act of grand sabotage by him will almost certainly be of great help to Mars and then carry out that plan with as little emotion as he had calculating it?

Tricking them is slightly more feasible - until they make contact with an outside Mechanicum agent who tells them what's going on. Or until a servitor overhears the someone in the officer corps discuss how to keep them ignorant. Hell, until a servitor happens to record two roughnecks boast about "how they showed those Mechanicum bastards".
That's assuming the Mechanicum don't have some way to communicate with other Mechanicum in the system outside the normal ships communication channels. I would, if I were the Adeptus Mechanicum.

Knowledge is power, in space moreso than anywhere else. The Mechanicus has it. The Imperium doesn't. That alone makes it an even battle

Bran Dawri wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

But they can make them work the generator or trick them.
But not outnumber them and the entire Imperium which is why the Ad Mech almost can't win.

Force them? How is a random Joe Blow guard forcing an AdMech going to know whether the Adept in question is invoking the ritual to power up the engines or to overload the ship's power generator?
For that matter, how would a captain or anyone else not of the Mechanicus know? No Mechanicus would ever tell anyone outside the Mechanicus anything about such deeply held secrets! For another, how do you force someone who will logically and without emotion calculate that his own chances of survival are pretty much nil anyway, but that an act of grand sabotage by him will almost certainly be of great help to Mars and then carry out that plan with as little emotion as he had calculating it?


Tricking them is slightly more feasible - until they make contact with an outside Mechanicum agent who tells them what's going on. Or until a servitor overhears the someone in the officer corps discuss how to keep them ignorant. Hell, until a servitor happens to record two roughnecks boast about "how they showed those Mechanicum bastards".
That's assuming the Mechanicum don't have some way to communicate with other Mechanicum in the system outside the normal ships communication channels. I would, if I were the Adeptus Mechanicum.

Knowledge is power, in space moreso than anywhere else. The Mechanicus has it. The Imperium doesn't. That alone makes it an even battle

great help to Mars and then carry out that plan with as little emotion as he had calculating it?
Hit them a bit and say do this stuff. They don't need to know what the stuff the techie does is they just need to point a gun at them and look threatening. You make them think they can live if they co operate which is pretty easy as all you need to do is say "Do this and you can live". That assumes the tech priest doesn't think they can help Mars more by living which they could.

I doubt a servitor can do that.
But how do they make contact? How do they know the other tech priest isn't lying?
You however are a rational (I assume this part) human being not a dogmatically devoted half machine man.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Void Dragon.

Which the Mechanicum may or may not know about, and which is most definitely bound within the deepest depths of Mars by the will of the Emperor himself, IIRC.

The Mechanicum certainly knows about it. It's the main source for their knowledge. And he gets yummy souls. Slowy draining 'em.

I think the Imperium would win due to their assassins. They would take out key targets and even in some cases replace them.

No one is "forcing" Enginseers and Tech-Priests into doing anything. That's simply not happening.

For one thing, people seem to be under the impression that only Imperials can be fanatical zealots. The Mechanicum makes Sisters of Battle and Space Marines look like heretics when it comes to zealotry. Very few enginseers and Magos are going to say "Okay, I'll help you run this space ship so you can make war on my people and my God, just stop hitting me."

For another, how exactly is a non-Mechanicus individual going to know whether the Enginseer is doing what he wants or not? That would be like someone who can't read torturing someone into writing an essay. They may be writing that essay on the history of McDonalds that you're demanding, or they might just be writing about how much of a dick you are. You can't read, so there's no way for you to know. Similarly, an Enginseer might be properly balancing the reactor's energy threshold so your troop-carrier can deliver its guardsmen regiments to the battlefield, or he could be rigging the Geller-Field to explode the moment you enter the warp. You don't know gak about how the ship works, so you have zero way of knowing until you're dead.

Nah, without the Mechanicus' willing cooperation, the Imperium loses access to:

Large-scale space travel
Military vehicle usage (no titans, no tanks, no bombers or air superiority fighters. You need to maintain those things bro, and assuage their machine-spirits).
Long-Range communications

And a whole slew of other things I haven't considered.

Maybe before the Great Crusade, before the Emperor parleyed with Mars, the Imperium could defeat the Mechanicus. But now, they're just too ingrained in every-day existence. As I said earlier, it would be like Humans trying to fight oxygen. One side has to breath, the other side doesn't need its enemy for anything.

For one thing, people seem to be under the impression that only Imperials can be fanatical zealots. The Mechanicum makes Sisters of Battle and Space Marines look like heretics when it comes to zealotry. Very few enginseers and Magos are going to say "Okay, I'll help you run this space ship so you can make war on my people and my God, just stop hitting me."

Not quite. Forges are largely independent, and often extremely competitive with one another. While they feed their data back to Mars (through what can only be a quantum computer), two Forge Worlds producing items of the same general technology (plasma, let's say) will be fiercely competitive.

Also, there *are* Apostate Tech-Priests, who don't go for the whole Machine God thing, and are, instead, secretly members of the Imperial Cult.

For another, how exactly is a non-Mechanicus individual going to know whether the Enginseer is doing what he wants or not? That would be like someone who can't read torturing someone into writing an essay. They may be writing that essay on the history of McDonalds that you're demanding, or they might just be writing about how much of a dick you are. You can't read, so there's no way for you to know. Similarly, an Enginseer might be properly balancing the reactor's energy threshold so your troop-carrier can deliver its guardsmen regiments to the battlefield, or he could be rigging the Geller-Field to explode the moment you enter the warp. You don't know gak about how the ship works, so you have zero way of knowing until you're dead.

Because a lot of that work is done by Technomats, not actual Tech-Priests. They don't understand the principles behind what they're doing, but they understand the rote tasks in order to make it happen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not quite. Forges are largely independent, and often extremely competitive with one another. While they feed their data back to Mars (through what can only be a quantum computer), two Forge Worlds producing items of the same general technology (plasma, let's say) will be fiercely competitive.

Sure, and various countries in the United Nations are fiercely competitive with each other, especially when it comes to sports.

That doesn't mean that they wouldn't pool resources if they were facing the threat of existential annihilation. Forges that compete are still Mechanicus.

Also, there *are* Apostate Tech-Priests, who don't go for the whole Machine God thing, and are, instead, secretly members of the Imperial Cult.

Apostate Tech-Priests become Apostates because they're convinced into doing so for ideological reasons or because they choose to. That's not the same thing as being forced to by threat of death or pain.

Because a lot of that work is done by Technomats, not actual Tech-Priests. They don't understand the principles behind what they're doing, but they understand the rote tasks in order to make it happen.

Right, and because they don't understand what they're doing, any task that exists beyond their immediate area of expertise might as well be alien to them. That's why all these ships have multiple enginseers and tech-priests on board, they need people who understands the ship in order to manage them. If they were all vented out the airlock, the ships would be dead in the water.

Furthermore, Technomats are Servitors- they're remote-controlled by their enginseers, who manage them. Without said Priests, no one on board would even know what commands to give them. Saying "do what you normally do" to a thousand servitors isn't going to work.

That doesn't mean that they wouldn't pool resources if they were facing the threat of existential annihilation. Forges that compete are still Mechanicus.

While correct, it ignores the possibility of collaboration between a Forge World and the IoM, in order to be *the* producer of X in the post-conflict galaxy.

Apostate Tech-Priests become Apostates because they're convinced into doing so for ideological reasons or because they choose to. That's not the same thing as being forced to by threat of death or pain.

Sort of, but these Apostates may not need to be threatened. They might back the Emperor's Imperium over those pagan Tech-Priests in this scenario. The point being, the odds of all the IoM's technology suddenly going belly-up because the Tech-Priests refuse to do anything and die to a robot is a bit far-fetched.

Furthermore, Technomats are Servitors- they're remote-controlled by their enginseers, who manage them. Without said Priests, no one on board would even know what commands to give them. Saying "do what you normally do" to a thousand servitors isn't going to work.

No, they're not servitors. They're the regular Joes and Janes who work in the various maintenance fields and roles. Cog-polishers, track-greasers, gauge-observers, all that kind of thing. They are not part of the Machine Cult directly, but are akin to lay worshippers. They receive enough instruction from an actual Tech-Priest to perform a single function, hundreds to thousands of them working in unison on starships or large Manufactorums or things of similar complexity, overseen by an actual Tech-Priest.

 Psienesis wrote:
While correct, it ignores the possibility of collaboration between a Forge World and the IoM, in order to be *the* producer of X in the post-conflict galaxy.

Pointless speculating. The exact opposite is true, a huge number of Imperial worlds would join the Mechanicus over the Imperium in order to secure their access to technology. In fact, the Mechanicus has more to offer to the Imperium than vice-versa, so it's probable that more Imperial worlds would turn traitor than Mechanicus Forge's would. The Mechanicus maintains their ships, their weapons, their TV's, their toilets and their refrigerators. Terra takes their money and their people and not a whole lot else.

They might back the Emperor's Imperium over those pagan Tech-Priests in this scenario.

The point being, the odds of all the IoM's technology suddenly going belly-up because the Tech-Priests refuse to do anything and die to a robot is a bit far-fetched.

It isn't, because the odds of scenario A happening over Scenario B, which is the super-majority of Magos' siding with their God and their kin is vastly less likely. Magos siding with the Imperium to fight the Mechanicus would be extremely isolated instances.

No, they're not servitors.

Source? I think you might be referring to serfs, which is a somewhat different thing. But my point remains. Serfs (or technomats, whichever terminology you want to use) do not have enough knowledge of how the ship's mechanics function, even collectively, to operate it independently of a Mechanicus figure.

 Psienesis wrote:

That doesn't mean that they wouldn't pool resources if they were facing the threat of existential annihilation. Forges that compete are still Mechanicus.

While correct, it ignores the possibility of collaboration between a Forge World and the IoM, in order to be *the* producer of X in the post-conflict galaxy.

And if Forgeworlds can defect to the IoM, so too can Hiveworlds, Space Marine Chapters, Guard Legions, and Navy fleets also defect to be with the side that can actually make their technological existence possible. Not a position that favors the IoM

 Psienesis wrote:

Furthermore, Technomats are Servitors- they're remote-controlled by their enginseers, who manage them. Without said Priests, no one on board would even know what commands to give them. Saying "do what you normally do" to a thousand servitors isn't going to work.

No, they're not servitors. They're the regular Joes and Janes who work in the various maintenance fields and roles. Cog-polishers, track-greasers, gauge-observers, all that kind of thing. They are not part of the Machine Cult directly, but are akin to lay worshippers. They receive enough instruction from an actual Tech-Priest to perform a single function, hundreds to thousands of them working in unison on starships or large Manufactorums or things of similar complexity, overseen by an actual Tech-Priest.

They are regular Joes and Janes who are useless without the Tech-Priests and who by their nature must worship the techpriests. The tech priests have all the knowledge and all of the hierarchy of control. Beyond painting the ship or manufacturing autoguns would not be possible without the tech priests. 1 machine would go out of order in a slightly unexpected way and the whole machine would come to a screeching halt.

And if Forgeworlds can defect to the IoM, so too can Hiveworlds, Space Marine Chapters, Guard Legions, and Navy fleets also defect to be with the side that can actually make their technological existence possible. Not a position that favors the IoM

Which ignores the fact that the Apostate Tech-Priests already very closely identify with Imperial culture (rather than AdMech), but the reverse is extremely rare outside of a Forge World. The vast majority of Imperial citizens find Tech-Priests very, very strange, to the point of disturbing. The chances of a Hive World abandoning the Imperium for the AdMech is slim, if only because the vast majority of Hive Worlders never see a Tech-Priest, and have no contact or understanding of them. The Hive World might as well be aligning with a Xenos Empire.

They are regular Joes and Janes who are useless without the Tech-Priests and who by their nature must worship the techpriests. The tech priests have all the knowledge and all of the hierarchy of control. Beyond painting the ship or manufacturing autoguns would not be possible without the tech priests. 1 machine would go out of order in a slightly unexpected way and the whole machine would come to a screeching halt.

Unless and until that critical system failure occurred, however, they need not understand anything about how the machines they are working with fit into the greater whole, or even to understand the principles of its operation. They need only know, on an individual level, to pull that lever when that light illuminates.

Chartist Captains, for example, will ply the stars for centuries, if not millennia, without a Tech-Priest on board. They have entire "Guilds" of crewmen within the hull that are focused on one small aspect of the ship's operation, passing knowledge down from one generation to the next by rote task and memory.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No one is "forcing" Enginseers and Tech-Priests into doing anything. That's simply not happening.

For one thing, people seem to be under the impression that only Imperials can be fanatical zealots. The Mechanicum makes Sisters of Battle and Space Marines look like heretics when it comes to zealotry. Very few enginseers and Magos are going to say "Okay, I'll help you run this space ship so you can make war on my people and my God, just stop hitting me."

For another, how exactly is a non-Mechanicus individual going to know whether the Enginseer is doing what he wants or not? That would be like someone who can't read torturing someone into writing an essay. They may be writing that essay on the history of McDonalds that you're demanding, or they might just be writing about how much of a dick you are. You can't read, so there's no way for you to know. Similarly, an Enginseer might be properly balancing the reactor's energy threshold so your troop-carrier can deliver its guardsmen regiments to the battlefield, or he could be rigging the Geller-Field to explode the moment you enter the warp. You don't know gak about how the ship works, so you have zero way of knowing until you're dead.

Nah, without the Mechanicus' willing cooperation, the Imperium loses access to:

Large-scale space travel
Military vehicle usage (no titans, no tanks, no bombers or air superiority fighters. You need to maintain those things bro, and assuage their machine-spirits).
Long-Range communications

And a whole slew of other things I haven't considered.

Maybe before the Great Crusade, before the Emperor parleyed with Mars, the Imperium could defeat the Mechanicus. But now, they're just too ingrained in every-day existence. As I said earlier, it would be like Humans trying to fight oxygen. One side has to breath, the other side doesn't need its enemy for anything.

Exactly what I was trying to say, only this is more eloquent. Have an exalt.
The Mechanicus does need the Imperium though. For much the same reason the Eldar use all of humanity.

Simple answer:

Ad-Mech cannot fly large ships without the Imperial Navy. No captains, no navigators. Being an engineer dose not mean they understand how to fly the things.

Imperial Navy cannot keep ships running and functioning without the Ad-Mech. No repairs, no-one to run the systems, manage the engines etc. They could probably continue for a short time, or possibly not depending on how things work. Are they like old steam ships that require engineers to simply change speed, or are they like modern ships where engineers are only needed to maintain and fix things.

However the IoM has one trump card over the Ad-Mech. Space Marines. Their ships are not maintained or run by the Ad-Mech. They are maintained and run by chapter surfs and Tech Marines, who are trained by the Ad-Mech, but not part of if. They also carry exterminatus weapons and have the right to use them.

If the Ad-Mech and the rest of the IoM were to split in to two need waring factions (Very very unlikely. Simple example, the Iron hands would likely side with the Ad-Mech, but lest assume it splits simply and neatly) the the IoM are left with total space superiority beyond the range of orbital fighters. Yes, they would be very thinly spread out, but there would be no opposition.

Mechanicum, in a war purely about attrition the faction that produces the munitions will eventually win.

All this talk of theAM stopping the supply of arms to the Imperium.

1.) the Imperium can produce independently of the AM.
2.) the AM loses its supply of raw materials from Imperial worlds.

AM would be crushed, as they knew they would be when they first met the Emperor.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Simple answer:

Ad-Mech cannot fly large ships without the Imperial Navy. No captains, no navigators. Being an engineer dose not mean they understand how to fly the things.

Imperial Navy cannot keep ships running and functioning without the Ad-Mech. No repairs, no-one to run the systems, manage the engines etc. They could probably continue for a short time, or possibly not depending on how things work. Are they like old steam ships that require engineers to simply change speed, or are they like modern ships where engineers are only needed to maintain and fix things.

However the IoM has one trump card over the Ad-Mech. Space Marines. Their ships are not maintained or run by the Ad-Mech. They are maintained and run by chapter surfs and Tech Marines, who are trained by the Ad-Mech, but not part of if. They also carry exterminatus weapons and have the right to use them.

If the Ad-Mech and the rest of the IoM were to split in to two need waring factions (Very very unlikely. Simple example, the Iron hands would likely side with the Ad-Mech, but lest assume it splits simply and neatly) the the IoM are left with total space superiority beyond the range of orbital fighters. Yes, they would be very thinly spread out, but there would be no opposition.

The AdMech has their own fleet of ships that is outside of the Imperial Navy

 Exergy wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
Simple answer:

Ad-Mech cannot fly large ships without the Imperial Navy. No captains, no navigators. Being an engineer dose not mean they understand how to fly the things.

Imperial Navy cannot keep ships running and functioning without the Ad-Mech. No repairs, no-one to run the systems, manage the engines etc. They could probably continue for a short time, or possibly not depending on how things work. Are they like old steam ships that require engineers to simply change speed, or are they like modern ships where engineers are only needed to maintain and fix things.

However the IoM has one trump card over the Ad-Mech. Space Marines. Their ships are not maintained or run by the Ad-Mech. They are maintained and run by chapter surfs and Tech Marines, who are trained by the Ad-Mech, but not part of if. They also carry exterminatus weapons and have the right to use them.

If the Ad-Mech and the rest of the IoM were to split in to two need waring factions (Very very unlikely. Simple example, the Iron hands would likely side with the Ad-Mech, but lest assume it splits simply and neatly) the the IoM are left with total space superiority beyond the range of orbital fighters. Yes, they would be very thinly spread out, but there would be no opposition.

The AdMech has their own fleet of ships that is outside of the Imperial Navy

But enough for domination of space?

The destruction of the mechanicus while a short term own goal long term would be better as the empire would be forced to relearn why something works rather than rote learning how to operate systems

Again, the Astra Militarum would hold off the Ad Mechs and the Astartes would crush them. Anywhere there was a real issue, send in the black ships to exterminate.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The Void Dragon.

Which the Mechanicum may or may not know about, and which is most definitely bound within the deepest depths of Mars by the will of the Emperor himself, IIRC.

The Mechanicum certainly knows about it. It's the main source for their knowledge. And he gets yummy souls. Slowy draining 'em.

A very, very, very few members of the Fabricator General's personal advisory council might know about it. The vast majority of the Tech-Priesthood does not know what it is, where it is, or even an inkling of an idea that it exists.

 PhillyT wrote:
Again, the Astra Militarum would hold off the Ad Mechs and the Astartes would crush them. Anywhere there was a real issue, send in the black ships to exterminate.

Unless their own sovereignty or existence is threatened, Space Marines tend to stay out of large-scale internecine conflicts within the larger Imperium. Case in point, the reign of Vandire - Marines didn't get involved until they were ordered to start worshipping the Emperor as a God, something which most Marines don't want to do. So as long as neither side starts sporting odd tentacles or threatening or shortchanging the Marines, most Marine Chapters would stay out of the fight.

Furthermore, the AdMech Explorator Fleets are easily capable by numbers alone to crush what few ships the Imperium will have left after the order to sabotage goes out to all senior Enginseers and Techpriests. That includes Space Marine fleets.

Thats like asking WHO would win in a fight, your lungs ir your heart. They cant function without each other