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Ah I see. I suppose that does make a good deal of sense. I'll concede this one to you.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
EDIT: Also, I cant find anything that says having a set power = generating a power. Do you have a page number for that?

How about one that says if you have a Set power you don't generate powers?

BRB Generating Psychic Powers wrote:In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

 grendel083 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
EDIT: Also, I cant find anything that says having a set power = generating a power. Do you have a page number for that?

How about one that says if you have a Set power you don't generate powers?

BRB Generating Psychic Powers wrote:In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Right, but this in no way denies the permission given by the FAQ.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite permission to generate an additional power.
Or cite permission to replace Veil.

You have to prove one of the two to move forward with your argument.

Edited my post. Need a page number from you first.

It doesn't seem to refer to set powers as being generated anywhere. (that I could find)

ebook.

Generating Psychic Powers
...
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated.

How is something that is only explained under "Generating Psychic Powers" not, I don't know, generating psychic powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
EDIT: Also, I cant find anything that says having a set power = generating a power. Do you have a page number for that?

How about one that says if you have a Set power you don't generate powers?

BRB Generating Psychic Powers wrote:In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Right, but this in no way denies the permission given by the FAQ.

The permission given by the FAQ is irrelevant without permission to either:
a) generate a second power
or
b) ignore the set power and randomly generate another one.

Since you've declined to cite permission for either of those I'm going to guess you haven't found permission?

Yay, someone finally agrees that Perils are considered Manifesting a Psychic Power. Being that they're under the same heading and all.

Kyutaru wrote:
Yay, someone finally agrees that Perils are considered Manifesting a Psychic Power. Being that they're under the same heading and all.

Sigh.

People mock me for responses like this, but apparently it's perfectly fine to throw it back at me? I wasn't aware of that.
I shouldn't, but I'll address this anyway.

In your example, "MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS" is the heading. Perils is in a boxout and mentioned completely separately.
In the relevant rules, "Generating Psychic Powers" is the heading. And the second paragraph of that heading deals specifically with set powers.

Perhaps actually investigating your claims in the future would be a good idea. These situations aren't comparable.

See pg 24, red bordered box, "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" and take your own advice.

Kyutaru wrote:
See pg 24, red bordered box, "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" and take your own advice.

Wow - the red bordered box that has nothing to do with the actual rules for Perils?
Thanks for that. Do you have anything constructive to add?

rigeld2 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite permission to generate an additional power.
Or cite permission to replace Veil.

You have to prove one of the two to move forward with your argument.

Edited my post. Need a page number from you first.

It doesn't seem to refer to set powers as being generated anywhere. (that I could find)

ebook.

Generating Psychic Powers
...
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated.

How is something that is only explained under "Generating Psychic Powers" not, I don't know, generating psychic powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
EDIT: Also, I cant find anything that says having a set power = generating a power. Do you have a page number for that?

How about one that says if you have a Set power you don't generate powers?

BRB Generating Psychic Powers wrote:In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

Right, but this in no way denies the permission given by the FAQ.

The permission given by the FAQ is irrelevant without permission to either:
a) generate a second power
or
b) ignore the set power and randomly generate another one.

Since you've declined to cite permission for either of those I'm going to guess you haven't found permission?

Its not needed because of this.
"in some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The permission given by the FAQ is almost completely unrestricted. It only requires the model to be a Psyker or Psychic Pilot from the Eldar Codex. I don't need permission in two locations.

If the unit in question is Mastery Level 1 and already has a set spell, he CANNOT roll for a second one.

The ruling in the FAQ allows for rolls on units that can actually roll for one. As a Mastery Level 1 Psyker cannot rid themselves of a set power, nor can they have more than one, they cannot roll. This is very simple to understand people.

Example.

Ezekiel from the DA.

He is a Mastery Level 3 Psyker, but he comes with Mindworm by default. He does not get too roll 3 new power as he already has one. GW used simple mathematics, 3-1=2 to determine how many he can roll, same for the unit in question:

Unit begins with ML 1, subtract 1 power he already knows and wow, what a surprise, you get zero.

1-1=0

If the unit in question was ML 2 then yes he could roll.

Daemonology being added to a list of powers being rolled from does not give you a roll. You need to actually be able to roll to use it and ad the unit in question has one power already and cannot take a second, he cannot roll. Anything else is flat out wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Its not needed because of this.
"in some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The permission given by the FAQ is almost completely unrestricted. It only requires the model to be a Psyker or Psychic Pilot from the Eldar Codex. I don't need permission in two locations.

You have answered your own question. See highlighted.

The unit is starting with one power already. The otherwise if for those not starting with set powers who are eligible to roll.

As much as I don't like to admit it, Rigeld2 is actually correct here.

You have no permission to drop a set power nor do you have permission to roll for an additional power on a ML 1 Psyker who already has a power.

 Lobomalo wrote:
As a Mastery Level 1 Psyker cannot rid themselves of a set power, nor can they have more than one, they cannot roll.

The underlined is false.

Warlocks are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers. Pink Horrors are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers. Astropaths are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers.

In fact, except for a few exceptions, every Level 1 Psyker has 2 powers.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
As a Mastery Level 1 Psyker cannot rid themselves of a set power, nor can they have more than one, they cannot roll.

The underlined is false.

Warlocks are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers. Pink Horrors are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers. Astropaths are Level 1 Psykers with 2 powers.

In fact, except for a few exceptions, every Level 1 Psyker has 2 powers.

You answered your own question, but did not dispute mine. Those units come with them naturally. In fact, most Level 1 Psykers have no set spells and generate only one due to their ML, everything you listed are special exceptions.

Just looked through Daemons codex as well as the FAQ.

Where are you getting the idea that Pink Horrors get two powers? It isn't in their unit description n page 38, not in the army listing in the back of the book, nor do they have any special rules on them giving them 2 from what I can find.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Its not needed because of this.
"in some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The permission given by the FAQ is almost completely unrestricted. It only requires the model to be a Psyker or Psychic Pilot from the Eldar Codex. I don't need permission in two locations.

So the Psyker/Psychic Pilot starts the game with a power. He has no permission to generate random ones (because he's got a static one and therefore the sentence starting with "Otherwise" that you emphasized so much doesn't apply) and so he has permission from the FAQ ... where exactly?

rigeld2 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Its not needed because of this.
"in some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

The permission given by the FAQ is almost completely unrestricted. It only requires the model to be a Psyker or Psychic Pilot from the Eldar Codex. I don't need permission in two locations.

So the Psyker/Psychic Pilot starts the game with a power. He has no permission to generate random ones (because he's got a static one and therefore the sentence starting with "Otherwise" that you emphasized so much doesn't apply) and so he has permission from the FAQ ... where exactly?

Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They get two powers the same way Tervigons get two powers.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They randomly generate one and get one for Focus.

Most ML1 Psykers will have at least 2 powers.

BRB; page 22: "the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to this Mastery Level."

BRB; page 22: "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..., that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."

BRB; page 23: "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed ... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

Eldar Codex, page 47: "SPECIAL RULES: ... Psyker (Mastery Level 1) (Shadowseer only). PSYKER: A Shadowseer has the Veil of Tears psychic power."

Long story short: The Daemonology discipline is known to the Shadowseer, but since he is only ML1 and has a power listed, he cannot generate a power from Daemonology.

None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

For the sake of completion. Why not just say "hemlock wraith fighter" instead? Because it doesn't apply to it in the sense you're suggesting

 Ignatius wrote:
For the sake of completion. Why not just say "hemlock wraith fighter" instead? Because it doesn't apply to it in the sense you're suggesting

Would you a agree that there is a direct conflict with the BRB and the FAQ?

Yes, there is permission that any psyker in the Eldar Codex may generate [roll for] psychic powers from the Daemonology discipline EXCEPT those whom cannot generate [roll for] powers (i.e. Shadowseers and Hemlocks). Therefore, any psyker with the ability to generate [roll for] powers may do so from Daemonology (e.g. Eldrad, Spiritseer, etc). The rule that wins out is both of them. One doesn't override the other. Basically, where ever you see a sentence describing what powers a unit can generate [roll for], you add Daemonology to that list; such as on page 28 of the Eldar Codex.

And yes, by my logic and RAW, a Hemlock cannot generate [roll for] a power from Daemonology because a Hemlock does not generate powers by rolling for them. It is given one. However; since the Hemlock one gets one power from the Telepathy discipline, it now gets Psychic Shriek (because of Psychic Focus). As for why they included "Psychic Pilot," I have no idea.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

 Happyjew wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

Right what I am trying to point out is that:
A: Hemlock rules deny it permission to roll for powers.
B: FAQ grans the Hemlock Permission to roll on Daemonology.

This is a clear conflict, and I believe that the FAQ take precedence.

For the Shadowseer:
A: BRB rules state that a ML 1 can only know 1 power (except psychic focus)
B: FAQ grants the Shadowseer permission to generate a power from Daemonology.

This is also a conflict. One rule says I can, the other says I cannot. FAQ takes precedence.

BRB, page 28; "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranid faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."

It is stated in the Codex: Eldar that the two models in question (Shadowseer and Hemlock Wraithfighter) have the powers given and cannot randomly generate powers; therefore; they cannot get access to Daemonology.

The FAQ states: "Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Daemonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Are you taking "others" to mean powers? Because it's referring to disciplines, and seeing as neither the Shadowseer nor Hemlock Wraithfighter have disciplines listed this doesn't apply to them.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

It's not a conflict.
There's nothing saying you don't have permission to generate a power from demonology.
The issue is you don't have permission to generate any powers whatsoever.

Unless you'd like to cite a rule for once? Maybe?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They randomly generate one and get one for Focus.

Most ML1 Psykers will have at least 2 powers.

That's right, forgot about the focus.

This is another exclusive thing that isn't effected by ML either though, so even with the Focus, you still wouldn't be able to roll for the unit in question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

Right what I am trying to point out is that:
A: Hemlock rules deny it permission to roll for powers.
B: FAQ grans the Hemlock Permission to roll on Daemonology.

This is a clear conflict, and I believe that the FAQ take precedence.

For the Shadowseer:
A: BRB rules state that a ML 1 can only know 1 power (except psychic focus)
B: FAQ grants the Shadowseer permission to generate a power from Daemonology.

This is also a conflict. One rule says I can, the other says I cannot. FAQ takes precedence.

There is no conflict. The FAQ only states that you add Daemonology to the list of choices you would normally select from before you roll on a power. It is not giving you an additional roll.

So, essentially, we are given Daemonology as a discipline, but are unable to generate from it.

It's a distinction without a difference, but it exists. Screw up?

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
So, essentially, we are given Daemonology as a discipline, but are unable to generate from it.

It's a distinction without a difference, but it exists. Screw up?

It covers all Psykers, only those can can select powers benefit

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was looking through all the stuff in FAQs and codex and couldn't find anything. Still checking for how Pink Horrors get 2 powers, codex and FAQ don't mention this and I never played with or against Daemons

They randomly generate one and get one for Focus.

Most ML1 Psykers will have at least 2 powers.

That's right, forgot about the focus.

This is another exclusive thing that isn't effected by ML either though, so even with the Focus, you still wouldn't be able to roll for the unit in question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
None of this really matters. We have SPECIFIC permission to generate a power from Deamonology. Now that conflicts with the fact that the shadowseer has one set power, is ML 1, and is therefore restricted by the BRB. Please tell me which source of rules wins out in a direct conflict?

Also as a RAI note, by your logicm the Hemlock could also not generate a power from Daemonology. If this is the case, please tell my why they included "Psychic Pilot" in the FAQ when the Hemlock is the ONLY unit with that rule?

The problem with the Wraithfighter, is it has a special rule as part of the Psyker special rule that specifically says that the Wraithfighter does not roll for powers.

The Shadowseer, however, does not have this note.

Right what I am trying to point out is that:
A: Hemlock rules deny it permission to roll for powers.
B: FAQ grans the Hemlock Permission to roll on Daemonology.

This is a clear conflict, and I believe that the FAQ take precedence.

For the Shadowseer:
A: BRB rules state that a ML 1 can only know 1 power (except psychic focus)
B: FAQ grants the Shadowseer permission to generate a power from Daemonology.

This is also a conflict. One rule says I can, the other says I cannot. FAQ takes precedence.

There is no conflict. The FAQ only states that you add Daemonology to the list of choices you would normally select from before you roll on a power. It is not giving you an additional roll.

This statement is false.

FAQ says
"Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule may generate powers from the Deamonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their Army List Entries."

Permission generate means that we have permission to roll on the tree. How else do you think anything from the Eldar codex would generate a power from Daemonology?

1. FAQS are not official and therefor in tournaments have no standing

and secondly, ML1, = 1 roll and 1 focus UNLESS you have specific powers listed. EG and i know this is a bad example as nids got screwed over again with the new powers... but broodlord has 1 specific power and as a psyker knows the other listed nid powers does that mean i can ignore his listed power in exchange to roll off? NO Specifically listed powers HAVE to be taken this is a VERY exlicit instruction as per the rule book.

Now citge actual rules saying that you can ignore this 1 EXPLICIT instruction and not your faq vague instruction or admit your wrong