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Then a Straight + or - modifier to make it especially hard to hit him unless he is in a challenge with a VERY CC orient unworldy beast, he wont be getting hit too often preserving his CC badassery and hopefully not getting one shoted.

Ether way the guy shouldn't survive getting hit with a lascannon from a mile away. he isnt that extraordinary.

If you need a cop out just give him EW in CC and or challenges only.

I do recall that in the previous dex he only had his 4++ in close combat. I could keep him as I have him described but with these changes: 4++ and EW in close combat only, and drop him down to 150pts. That way he's vulnerable outside of combat and fits nicely as the leader of a Crusader squad.

The thing is, he's competing with a Burning Blade/AA Captain, which is only 165 points. The Captain has better Strength, more attacks, causes Blind and unlocks a Command Squad, whereas your Emperor's Champion would have EW in CC and one reroll to wound.

As has been mentioned, the problem is that the title of "Emperor's Champion" can vary in significance. If rookie Neophyte Herp McDerp is elevated to Emperor's Champion even the current stats and rules might be a tad too much, whereas if someone like Ludoldus or Helbrecht recieved the vision we'd have a case of Sigismund Reborn on our hands. Perhaps some sort of system where the Emperor's Champion is more like a "normal" HQ in that you'd be able to pay more to get better stats, or stay cheap and still get a relatively good CC-booster for your points?

 phoenix darkus wrote:
I do recall that in the previous dex he only had his 4++ in close combat. I could keep him as I have him described but with these changes: 4++ and EW in close combat only, and drop him down to 150pts. That way he's vulnerable outside of combat and fits nicely as the leader of a Crusader squad.

No I think he always had a 4++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As has been mentioned, the problem is that the title of "Emperor's Champion" can vary in significance. If rookie Neophyte Herp McDerp is elevated to Emperor's Champion even the current stats and rules might be a tad too much, whereas if someone like Ludoldus or Helbrecht recieved the vision we'd have a case of Sigismund Reborn on our hands. Perhaps some sort of system where the Emperor's Champion is more like a "normal" HQ in that you'd be able to pay more to get better stats, or stay cheap and still get a relatively good CC-booster for your points?

Now that you mention it, I think an insanely cool idea would be to have "The Emperor's Champion" as a special rule for BT detachments where, before the game begins, you get to randomly nominate one character in your army and on a roll of 4+, he gets the vision and thus becomes the Emperor's Champion, trading his melee weapon for a S6 AP2 sword, his armor for a 2+/4++, and receives a +2WS stat boost. So if a sarge gets the vision, he wont be as good a champion as when your main HQ gets it. All free of charge, as part of the BT CT. But of course, remember it only works on a 5+.

Sir Arun, why would you ever nominate someone OTHER than your main HQ for that? It shouldn't be based off of nomination.

thats why I said random.

As in...nominate a number on a D6 for every character you have in your army.

If its less than 6, re-roll the 'duds'.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Emperor's Champion Ulricus, alongside High Marshal Ludoldus and Canoness Jasmine, fought and defeated a Greater Daemon of Khorne in the Battle of Fire and Blood. Seeing as they all lived through the volcano they were fighing in erupting, that's something.

And if we're being literal, Sigismund was the first Emperor's Champion, and he's pretty much a textbook example of who should have Eternal Warrior (as is Ludoldus, but that's a different story).

The Marshal Ludoldus threw a Holy Orb of Antioch into a pit of lava, and that's what ended the Greater Daemon.

The other thing is that the Emperors Champion is a title, not a person, and I don't believe there's any rank requisite for the person who becomes the EC, just that they receive the vision. So you could get huge variation with initiates or some of the very best Sword Brethren receiving the position.

 Formosa wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Excuse me? Now I'm not even an Imperial Fists fanboy at all but that's plainly untrue

Before Lysander was even a Space Marine he was famous for surviving an Ork Waaagh! and the Quesarch Heresy, and whilst a 1st Company Captain him and several of his Marines were captured and tortured by the Iron Warriors for a considerable amount of time, which requires quite a large amount of endurance, and then he escaped with no weapons or armour. He was then tested by the chapter's offices of apothecaries, chaplains and librarians and survived that too.

After that, he destroyed the world he was tortured on and later defeated the Warsmith who took him prisoner.

Belial got his ass wiped by Ghazghkull, is a self-depressive "coulda done it better" sort of guy who got promoted to his position for bravery. His name comes from a Hebrew Idiom "Son of Belial", meaning to be a worthless man.

Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

And none of that is particularly hard for a normal fluff marine, tortured.. Yawn, happens all the time and is not enough to warrant ew.
Survived a waagh, again that's normal for marines, it's where he got his bolter drill from though so that's ok.
Survived the attentions if his chapters Libys and chaplains, again run of the mill.

Belial got cut in HALF by ghazghull and lived, that's worthy of eternal warrior, not a bit of torture, doing run of the mill marine stuff and then getting a good look over by the chapters higher ups, lysanders ew has no basis in fluff, it's a game mechanic they wanted to use and nothing more.

This is Chaos Space Marine level torture, which isn't a joke, especially given how mad the Iron Warriors have always been at the Fists. It would probably be testing on mental endurance and physical endurance, as well as posing the threat of taint. This is in combination with a mortal pilgrim that survived one of the most destructive forces of war any enemy of the Imperium can muster in the form of the Waaagh, and surviving an insurrection by heretics, which would be no doubt dangerous for anyone.

Lysander is no doubt an extremely remarkable Captain, whereas Belial is only remarkable for holding the position, Cypher has run circles around him and if one-time grievous wounds alone are grounds for EW, half the Iron Hands Chapter should probably have the rule by that logic, if nothing else their higher ups, as they're almost entirely cybernetic inside.

Also, I can find no evidence at all for Belial being ripped in half by Ghazghkull at any point. Where is your source for this? Between the fact that visual depictions of him are per the norm for Terminator Marines and well, the fact nothing I'm reading on any site makes any mention of such an occurrence, I'm doubtful.

The battle for picena 4, that's where it happened.

Chaos space marine torture, meh, feel no pain justification possibly but not ew

Ork waaagh and insurrections are paint by numbers for space marines, yeah a few die but it's not Armageddon standard of warfare.

Lysander blew up a bridge, got captured later on ans tortured, survived and escaped naked (good reason there for a pip of t or fnp), got home and interrogated, then sent back to the fight...
No reason other than what an above poster stated, 200+ characters that are designed to be beat sticks get ew, lysander has less fluff reason than other characters that should have it.

 Sir Arun wrote:
thats why I said random.

As in...nominate a number on a D6 for every character you have in your army.

If its less than 6, re-roll the 'duds'.

So you roll and take into account EVERY character? Of which there can be dozens in 2000 point games? And after this, it only does anything on a 5+?

 Formosa wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Emperor's Champion Ulricus, alongside High Marshal Ludoldus and Canoness Jasmine, fought and defeated a Greater Daemon of Khorne in the Battle of Fire and Blood. Seeing as they all lived through the volcano they were fighing in erupting, that's something.

And if we're being literal, Sigismund was the first Emperor's Champion, and he's pretty much a textbook example of who should have Eternal Warrior (as is Ludoldus, but that's a different story).

The Marshal Ludoldus threw a Holy Orb of Antioch into a pit of lava, and that's what ended the Greater Daemon.

The other thing is that the Emperors Champion is a title, not a person, and I don't believe there's any rank requisite for the person who becomes the EC, just that they receive the vision. So you could get huge variation with initiates or some of the very best Sword Brethren receiving the position.

 Formosa wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No where in lysanders fluff does it show him able to survive injuries that would kill a normal marine, belial however has such fluff and doesn't get ew, it's quite odd I think.

Excuse me? Now I'm not even an Imperial Fists fanboy at all but that's plainly untrue

Before Lysander was even a Space Marine he was famous for surviving an Ork Waaagh! and the Quesarch Heresy, and whilst a 1st Company Captain him and several of his Marines were captured and tortured by the Iron Warriors for a considerable amount of time, which requires quite a large amount of endurance, and then he escaped with no weapons or armour. He was then tested by the chapter's offices of apothecaries, chaplains and librarians and survived that too.

After that, he destroyed the world he was tortured on and later defeated the Warsmith who took him prisoner.

Belial got his ass wiped by Ghazghkull, is a self-depressive "coulda done it better" sort of guy who got promoted to his position for bravery. His name comes from a Hebrew Idiom "Son of Belial", meaning to be a worthless man.

Relating to topic ; eternal warrior should stop getting handed out like candy to make characters decent, it should apply to characters who are specifically renowned for being hard to kill, and since the EC is a generic warrior who is renowned for having the best equipment that's not really applicable to him.

And none of that is particularly hard for a normal fluff marine, tortured.. Yawn, happens all the time and is not enough to warrant ew.
Survived a waagh, again that's normal for marines, it's where he got his bolter drill from though so that's ok.
Survived the attentions if his chapters Libys and chaplains, again run of the mill.

Belial got cut in HALF by ghazghull and lived, that's worthy of eternal warrior, not a bit of torture, doing run of the mill marine stuff and then getting a good look over by the chapters higher ups, lysanders ew has no basis in fluff, it's a game mechanic they wanted to use and nothing more.

This is Chaos Space Marine level torture, which isn't a joke, especially given how mad the Iron Warriors have always been at the Fists. It would probably be testing on mental endurance and physical endurance, as well as posing the threat of taint. This is in combination with a mortal pilgrim that survived one of the most destructive forces of war any enemy of the Imperium can muster in the form of the Waaagh, and surviving an insurrection by heretics, which would be no doubt dangerous for anyone.

Lysander is no doubt an extremely remarkable Captain, whereas Belial is only remarkable for holding the position, Cypher has run circles around him and if one-time grievous wounds alone are grounds for EW, half the Iron Hands Chapter should probably have the rule by that logic, if nothing else their higher ups, as they're almost entirely cybernetic inside.

Also, I can find no evidence at all for Belial being ripped in half by Ghazghkull at any point. Where is your source for this? Between the fact that visual depictions of him are per the norm for Terminator Marines and well, the fact nothing I'm reading on any site makes any mention of such an occurrence, I'm doubtful.

The battle for picena 4, that's where it happened.

Chaos space marine torture, meh, feel no pain justification possibly but not ew

Ork waaagh and insurrections are paint by numbers for space marines, yeah a few die but it's not Armageddon standard of warfare.

Lysander blew up a bridge, got captured later on ans tortured, survived and escaped naked (good reason there for a pip of t or fnp), got home and interrogated, then sent back to the fight...
No reason other than what an above poster stated, 200+ characters that are designed to be beat sticks get ew, lysander has less fluff reason than other characters that should have it.

No, no, I want the exact source that says Belial was torn in half, because that specific point is the crux of your argument. And there's no evidence for it that I'm seeing.

You haven't actually answered my points, you've just reiterated yours, and tried to avoid mine by strawmanning. Allow me to state for the 3rd time, if you're actually just mis-reading, Lysander was not a Space Marine when he survived an Orc Waagh and a Heresy. That sort of feat is frankly incredible when you look at the death toll of innocents such events incur, and the life expectancy of each. No power armour. No bolter. No genetic enhancements. No constant protection from having a squad around.

He is a long service veteran with a knack of surviving remarkable hardships. Belial is the scrub 1st Company Captain of the crop we see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:
thats why I said random.

As in...nominate a number on a D6 for every character you have in your army.

If its less than 6, re-roll the 'duds'.

I think this is a good idea, and I actually agree with the "hit on 6's" idea in combination with this, but, with a caveat- it only applies against a "quarry" which you choose at the same time the EC is declared.

That way, despite having stats that could be pretty poor, he'd still have a decent chance of killing a harder character in melee, which his unit would actively seek out, and he'd not be as broken by also being a close combat rampager.

Just from the fluff on Warhammer40k.Wiki, I see that Belial was dealt grevious injury, but not nescessarily dismbembered or halved.
Also, from the fluff, it feels like Belial is the far superior duelist, vastly more deadly, but Lysander is a survivor and brawler. Belial was raised and trained to fight in close quarters, and win. Lysander's training came from natural adversity, and he never had to win, just to live another day and keep moving towards Terra.

Belial deserves to kick ass in CC. Lysander deserves to be indesctructible.

I did give you a source, there is only 1 battle of picena 4, the others are purging of kallidus, angels of darkness, the purging of kallidus covers the other events in the campaign.

And I reiterated my points because all you have shown me is standard space marine fluff, fought naked...so what, got tortured so what, none of that justifies why he has ew over other models that should have it.

And belial is not the crux of my argument, it's one tiny part of it, there are other characters that I mentioned.

And lastly you lexicanum source for info is laughable, they regularly leave out info or make mistakes.

 Formosa wrote:
I did give you a source, there is only 1 battle of picena 4, the others are purging of kallidus, angels of darkness, the purging of kallidus covers the other events in the campaign.

And I reiterated my points because all you have shown me is standard space marine fluff, fought naked...so what, got tortured so what, none of that justifies why he has ew over other models that should have it.

And belial is not the crux of my argument, it's one tiny part of it, there are other characters that I mentioned.

And lastly you lexicanum source for info is laughable, they regularly leave out info or make mistakes.

Checkmate.

The Chaplain turned and saw Master Belial striding into the tower from the curtain wall. He was wearing full armour, his personal standard hanging from the back banner, the white robes of the Deathwing over his green armour. Beneath the robe was evidence of the master's fight with the Ork Warlord, and Boreas could only guess at the injuries Belial has sustained.

Purging of Kadillus, page 55

Master Belial looked at the speaker intently. He was dressed only in a ceremonial robe, his armour left with Techmarines to repair the damage sustained during the retrieval of the Ork power relay. Half-healed scars from his encounter with Ghazghkull marred his exposed chest and arms, bright welts against his tanned skin. .....

...Belial crossed to the control panel set into the wood panelled wall......

Purging of Kadillus, page 285 (nothing changes)

Last I checked men, even Space Marines with no legs didn't stride or walk.

Now please elaborate on why a couple of welts on his manly chest and scratched armour isn't par the course for even the lowliest of Space Marines, and how they are justification for eternal warrior? Because outside of that all we have is "yeah, Belial sustained serious injuries guys"

Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread concerning which characters should really have EW and stuff.

digital weapons is a wargear, not a special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Just from the fluff on Warhammer40k.Wiki, I see that Belial was dealt grevious injury, but not nescessarily dismbembered or halved.
Also, from the fluff, it feels like Belial is the far superior duelist, vastly more deadly, but Lysander is a survivor and brawler. Belial was raised and trained to fight in close quarters, and win. Lysander's training came from natural adversity, and he never had to win, just to live another day and keep moving towards Terra.

Belial deserves to kick ass in CC. Lysander deserves to be indesctructible.

Lysander should have 5 wounds.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
I did give you a source, there is only 1 battle of picena 4, the others are purging of kallidus, angels of darkness, the purging of kallidus covers the other events in the campaign.

And I reiterated my points because all you have shown me is standard space marine fluff, fought naked...so what, got tortured so what, none of that justifies why he has ew over other models that should have it.

And belial is not the crux of my argument, it's one tiny part of it, there are other characters that I mentioned.

And lastly you lexicanum source for info is laughable, they regularly leave out info or make mistakes.

Checkmate.

The Chaplain turned and saw Master Belial striding into the tower from the curtain wall. He was wearing full armour, his personal standard hanging from the back banner, the white robes of the Deathwing over his green armour. Beneath the robe was evidence of the master's fight with the Ork Warlord, and Boreas could only guess at the injuries Belial has sustained.

Purging of Kadillus, page 55

Master Belial looked at the speaker intently. He was dressed only in a ceremonial robe, his armour left with Techmarines to repair the damage sustained during the retrieval of the Ork power relay. Half-healed scars from his encounter with Ghazghkull marred his exposed chest and arms, bright welts against his tanned skin. .....

...Belial crossed to the control panel set into the wood panelled wall......

Purging of Kadillus, page 285 (nothing changes)

Last I checked men, even Space Marines with no legs didn't stride or walk.

Now please elaborate on why a couple of welts on his manly chest and scratched armour isn't par the course for even the lowliest of Space Marines, and how they are justification for eternal warrior? Because outside of that all we have is "yeah, Belial sustained serious injuries guys"

Battle of picena world wide campaign, not purging if kallidus, tell you what I will save your lazy butt and go and find it for you, there should still be somewhere to download it.

And per the reference specifically, marines heal quickly, with apothecarys even quicker, and nearly getting cut in half is not completely getting cut in half so why would he not have legs?
Now show me where lysander has done anything outside the norm for a space marine, then show me how he has done something outside the norm for a captain, and lastly justify his ew as its clearly just taped on to make him a beatstick and has no fluff justification


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I notice that you still haven't addressed that I stated kharn, lucius should have eternal warrior, calgar possibly should I think, sammael should not as the adamantium mantle is a crapy throwback to 4th.

Does strakken have it?

Does the swarmlord?

Why does abbadon?

Rather than trying to pick at one part of my argument, why not address the whole thing, ew is just a mechanic and just like mc and walker they throw it on any model they feel like and damn the fluff.

Formosa, you pretty clearly said 'Cut in half' in your older posts. Stick with your guns, don't backpedal and say you meant something completely different.
Also: There is very obvious proof of Lysander surviving something normal marines don't: All the other Marines tortured alongside him died or fell to Chaos. On account of the torture. Not to mention the WAAAGH! and major Heresy he survived pre-Marine, two things which can kill people with geneseed and Power Armor frequently.

As for your other examples:
Lucius was never a survivor. A major part of his fluff is about how he dies, repeatedly.
Kharn... I dunno much about him, honestly, I never see anyone field hin.

Marneus Calgar: Is one of the oldest and toughest Marines around. Not to mention his armor alone nearly qualifies him since it's so bulky.
Sammael: Don't know much about his fluff.

But about half your examples are weaksauce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Swarmlord doesn't have it because he's never, ever been Tanky in any way.
Abbadon has it because he's got the power of 4 Chaos Gods pumping through him, each making him tougher and stronger.

I'm sorry, but not only has this line of enquiry dragged on way too long. I am tired of talking to someone who is "supposedly" an adult, yet 1) Pretends he has not said things that he has plainly stated two pages, or even a post before 2) Insults me in a way that only be described as invalid and ironic ,"lazy" and 3) Isn't actually prepared to use any legitimate evidence or points to support his argument.

So frankly I hope two things, the first is that you see what a joke your style of arguing is and improve on it, and the second is that someone cleans up the mess this thread has become.

I did indeed say "cut in half" that's my error and clarification isn't back peddling, it's clarification.

Lucius is by his very nature an eternal warrior, he is a perpetual that has been corrupted by slaanesh and now takes the bodies of those that have slain him, ref: Angel exterminatus.

Kharn survived crippling injuries through out his long life, siege of the emps palace, thousands of years of brutal warfare, that's an eternal warrior right there.

Sammael has it because of a throwback to the adamantium mantle and gw was too lazy to actually do anything interesting with the character other than copy paste and a small point drop.

Swarmlord has always been tanky up untill the newest book, t6 plenty of wounds and the only nid mc with a invun (in combat) impossible to kill permanently and described as massively powerful, good for eternal warrior.


Abbadon was simply asking for examples, it's quite clear why he has it.

Calgar has survived through some damned nasty fighting and survived a beat down by the swarmlord, feel no pain should be enough for him but he is a beatstick and as such gets it because gw thinks he should, but it's justifiable with him unlike lysander.

I have not "pretended" not to say anything, it's all in black and white, what I took to be a good natured discussion with a bit of jibbing you have taken the wrong way, your taking it far too seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and describing the tankiest character in 6th as "never been tanky in any way ever" c'mon, you know thats not true

Eternal Warrior is used to describe champions and warriors who don't die. Lucius dies all the time, he is simy reborn. He doesn't survive Lascannons to the phase, he posseses the guy with the Lascannon.

The Swarmlord has only existed for two books, and he's never been tanky. He's got a Hive Tyrant stat-line with better WS and fancy Close Combat weapons. He's 'Impossible to kill permanently' because the Tyranids re-grow one when the previous version died. A 4+ Invuln does not a tank make, he's no higher T than any other Tyranid MCs, and he's only got 3+ Armor and 4 Wounds. It's always been this way. He is by no means eternal.

I still don't know much fluff about Kharn or Sammael, so that's moot.

As for Calgar... Your argument for Belial is that he was badly injured, eviscerated, and survived. Therefore, he deserves Eternal Warrior. But... Calgar was mortally injured, eviscerated, and survived... And he only deserves Feel No Pain? How does this make sense?



Lastly, making a claim that something happened (Belial was cut in half), and then trying to argue against someone's refuting of that claim by claiming something else (He wasn't cut in half!) is a waste of everyone's time. Mr.Omega was proving that, unlike you claimed, Belial was never cut in half. You then argued that he never was cut in half, which contradicts the statements you've been building your Belial-argument on.


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If you recall, the only thing that made the Swarmlord 'Tanky' in 6th Edition was access to Biomancy's Iron Arm, until 6th Ed. Tyranids came out. Even then, he was less tanky than Wraithknights or Riptides, who have naturally good toughness or better armor. (And access to Invulns against shooting.) Chapter Masters are Tankier too, having 1 less Toughness but 2+3++ Armor, and potentially FNP and IWND. Some Chaos and CSM champs are Tankier too, including Nurgle DPs and... Well, really anything Nurgle and expensive.
What makes or ever made the Swarmlord any better than these guys?

The Swarmlord is easier to kill than a Tervigon. He's always been that way. Tyrant Guard helped this, and Iron Arm was a non-fluffy and entirely accidental tank-maker... Which Tervigon's could also get, so they'd still be tankier.

Wow, this thread is convoluted.

Look, the EC isn't supposed to be a CC god. He's a regular-joe Marine who received a vision of the Emperor and gets decked out in the Crusade's best gear. That puts him above normal marines, but he's not even at captain level, much less a Chapter Master. All this stuff about enemy units needing a modifier to hit him, or him having eternal warrior, it's not necessary. Make him better than a sergeant but worse than a Captain and price him accordingly.

WS5/BS5/S4/T4/W2/I5/A2/2+sv, 5+ Invuln

Special Rules: ATSKNF, BT Chapter Tactics, Rage, Zealot, Independent Character.

Equipment: Armor of Faith, Bolt Pistol, Black Sword (Str: +1, AP2; 5+ Instant Death, Master-Crafted)

Cost: 70 Points

If you want an Eternal-Warrior nigh unkillable beat-stick, take Grimaldus. If you want a beatstick who also helps out your bros, take Helbrecht.

That's a Character that I'd actually pay points for, although he does rather invalidate Chaplains. Chalk that up to being a benefit of our otherwise craptastic Chapter Tactics I guess.

Again, though, he's not by definition a "regular-Joe Marine", he could just as well be a Sword Brother or even a Marshal. There's nothing that says only grunts get the visions.

You're right about that- anyone can become the Emperor's Champion in a crusade.

I guess a better way to put it is that as far as mechanics, rule of averages would dictate that in an army 8,000 marines, the chances the Emperor's Champion being a badass Marshal or Castellan, to the point where if you want someone with Captain/CM stats, just take a Captain or CM.