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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 insaniak wrote:
 Throt wrote:
It doesn't fail. How many games does it take to run across problem 'x'? If the vast majority playing a game are like minded they may never come across problem 'x'.

How many of the current problems with 40K get pointed out within hours of a book being released?


And, in some cases, before.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 insaniak wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
First of all, [CITATION NEEDED] for it being intended to work as a standalone codex


The Black Library wrote:Codex: Legion of the Damned allows you to add Legion of the Damned squads into your Warhammer 40,000 army, or field them as a detachment in their own right.


"Detachment" != "Army"

You can field four Combined Arms detachments of LotD and never lose a game if you include one Allied detachment of one 35 point inquisitor.
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.

The point though was paying for the value of the work, the experience and enjoyment you get from it. The materials used to make it don't matter for enjoyment to be had.

You have yet to have a reasonable argument as to why it is wrong for people to pay for something they find value in, even if it is over-priced, which we all can agree on. Also again, the opinions of other manufacturers have no place here. We are discussing players and their spending habits and not want to be competitors of GW who honestly wouldn't even be around if GW didn't bring war-gaming to the forefront of the gaming community.


Not only is your first claim entirely subjective, it's also false. An Indie game took top accolades at E3 this year, "No Man's Sky."

So yea, our discussion is done. You're not even rational at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 06:59:16


Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 insaniak wrote:


If you have to create a house rule to deal with a situation, the rules didn't 'work' for you. You might not take issue with the fact that the rules are incomplete, but that doesn't make them complete.


This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor.

Everything else were ideas I discussed with others.

So again, for me, the rules are working as intended. I go to YMDC when people come to me with questions I am not 100% clear on answering, not because the rules are unclear for me but because I don't always have the rules handy and I get asked most questions when I'm not even playing.

Also, house ruling something does not mean something isn't working. Again, GW has allowed us to freely change and remove aspects that we do not like in the game. That does not mean that the rules are badly written or unclear.

For example, I find that Overwatch shots are always done as Snap Shots slowed because logically, someone charging at you should become easier to hit, not harder.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And I don't really want to have a 'constructive discussion about game design' because I have a hunch you mean 'how to improve a game based on my standards' when you say 'constructive'.


No, to improve it based on ANY standards. So far all you've said is that a game isn't broken as long as RAW produces an outcome, no matter how absurd that outcome is. And that's an utterly useless standard to judge a game by.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 TheKbob wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.

The point though was paying for the value of the work, the experience and enjoyment you get from it. The materials used to make it don't matter for enjoyment to be had.

You have yet to have a reasonable argument as to why it is wrong for people to pay for something they find value in, even if it is over-priced, which we all can agree on. Also again, the opinions of other manufacturers have no place here. We are discussing players and their spending habits and not want to be competitors of GW who honestly wouldn't even be around if GW didn't bring war-gaming to the forefront of the gaming community.


Not only is your first claim entirely subjective, it's also false. An Indie game took top accolades at E3 this year, "No Man's Sky."

So yea, our discussion is done. You're not even rational at this point.


You mean a preview for a game, the game hasn't even launched yet.

I am Alive got the exact same response at E3 years ago, it launched, it was filth and the players hated it.

Try again please.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Detachment" != "Army".

If you read the quote again, they're using the terms interchangeably here.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Peregrine wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And I don't really want to have a 'constructive discussion about game design' because I have a hunch you mean 'how to improve a game based on my standards' when you say 'constructive'.


No, to improve it based on ANY standards. So far all you've said is that a game isn't broken as long as RAW produces an outcome, no matter how absurd that outcome is. And that's an utterly useless standard to judge a game by.


Well, my standard is that a game be fun, and I find 40k to be ridiculous, awesome, great, hilarious amounts of it.
So by my standard, it requires no improving.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Lobomalo wrote:
This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor.


You realize that "setting the terrain up in your favor to gain an advantage" is an intended part of the rules, right? This isn't some obscure loophole that the Tau players are exploiting, the rules encourage you to use terrain placement as a strategy. Your house rule is a concession that you don't think the game as published by GW is good enough and needs to be fixed.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 insaniak wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Detachment" != "Army".

If you read the quote again, they're using the terms interchangeably here.



[CITATION NEEDED] as I do not read it that way - and there is no way of knowing the author's intent
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Lobomalo wrote:
This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor..

The specific example under discussion was LOS with models with no eyes.

If the rules require LOS from the eyes, and the models have no eyes, there is literally no way to resolve the situation within the rules. You have to create a house rule to draw LOS with those models.

 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.


- Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1-

Super Meat Boy, The Stanley Parable, Kerbal Space Program, LIMBO, The Binding of Isaac.

These games are definitely not trash.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/22 11:31:54


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 insaniak wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor..

The specific example under discussion was LOS with models with no eyes.

If the rules require LOS from the eyes, and the models have no eyes, there is literally no way to resolve the situation within the rules. You have to create a house rule to draw LOS with those models.


Sorry this made me laugh, like a lot actually. You realize that this came about by pure accident and was encouraged by the very people we mentioned earlier as rule nazis, those players who look around for any exploit to seek some flaw or advantage within the game?

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

 insaniak wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor..

The specific example under discussion was LOS with models with no eyes.

If the rules require LOS from the eyes, and the models have no eyes, there is literally no way to resolve the situation within the rules. You have to create a house rule to draw LOS with those models.


Didn't GW used to recommend actually hunching down to a "model's eye view" of the battlefield so the player could attempt to actually see if the model being fired upon could be at least partially seen by the firing model? Has that changed?

6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts

"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.


Super Meat Boy, The Stanley Parable, Kerbal Space Program, LIMBO, The Binding of Isaac.

These games are definitely not trash.


No not really, I play too many games to count and Indie games really haven't been worth my time, nor have they sold very well either. But this you can easily tell by how quickly they hit the %70 off rack at game stores.

Super Meat Boy, Flopped
The Stanley Parable, Flopped
Kerbal Space Program, Flopped
LIMBO, Flopped
The Binding of Isaac. actually did fairly well, didn't notice this on first read through, my bad,

Banished was another Indie that did well at all, so maybe I should adjust and change it to most Indie games, all is a little harsh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:
This is factually untrue and as of yet, I have put into action only one house rule and that is that terrain must be equally distributed across the map so no player can have an inherent advantage. Too many times do I see Tau, IG and Eldar try and put terrain in their favor..

The specific example under discussion was LOS with models with no eyes.

If the rules require LOS from the eyes, and the models have no eyes, there is literally no way to resolve the situation within the rules. You have to create a house rule to draw LOS with those models.


Didn't GW used to recommend actually hunching down to a "model's eye view" of the battlefield so the player could attempt to actually see if the model being fired upon could be at least partially seen by the firing model? Has that changed?


No, it's still there.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/22 11:32:58


In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Retrogamer0001 wrote:


Didn't GW used to recommend actually hunching down to a "model's eye view" of the battlefield so the player could attempt to actually see if the model being fired upon could be at least partially seen by the firing model? Has that changed?


The rules for LOS have been fixed for 7E, so it's not really much of a point anymore. But it didn't functionally work without a mutually assumed house rule for several model types through multiple editions.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.


Super Meat Boy, The Stanley Parable, Kerbal Space Program, LIMBO, The Binding of Isaac.

These games are definitely not trash.


Minecraft, Terraria, Outlast, Resogun... he's just ignorant. I've had him blocked since last night and feel great about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 11:33:13


6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts

"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Lobomalo wrote:


No not really, I play too many games to count and Indie games really haven't been worth my time, nor have they sold very well either. But this you can easily tell by how quickly they hit the %70 off rack at game stores.



Minecraft: 15,732,538 people have bought the game.
In the last 24 hours, 19,637 people bought the game.

-https://minecraft.net/stats


Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 TheKbob wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:


Didn't GW used to recommend actually hunching down to a "model's eye view" of the battlefield so the player could attempt to actually see if the model being fired upon could be at least partially seen by the firing model? Has that changed?


The rules for LOS have been fixed for 7E, so it's not really much of a point anymore. But it didn't functionally work without a mutually assumed house rule for several model types through multiple editions.


This is an example of an objectively broken rules-set, and the fact that it wasn't fixed for so long is one of the few things I actually hold against GW.

Another example would be the 5th edition morale-checks-in-transports, when a CCS lost 2-4 veterans to overheating plasma guns and was required to take a morale check inside a transport, and then failed it. Fortunately, this, too, has been addressed.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


Indie games? Seriously? Indie games are worthless and are sold on the cheap because they are trash to much of the gaming community. Sorry but Indie games are something that have no place to even be mentioned when conversing about games.



Super Meat Boy, The Stanley Parable, Kerbal Space Program, LIMBO, The Binding of Isaac.

These games are definitely not trash.


Minecraft, Terraria, Outlast, Resogun... he's just ignorant. I've had him blocked since last night and feel great about it.


Again with the insults. Only Minecraft did any good and that is mostly because its a pure sandbox game and people love sand boxes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 11:33:30


In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Another example would be the 5th edition morale-checks-in-transports, when a CCS lost 2-4 veterans to overheating plasma guns and was required to take a morale check inside a transport, and then failed it. Fortunately, this, too, has been addressed.


Oh, God... I forgot about that!

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 TheKbob wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


No not really, I play too many games to count and Indie games really haven't been worth my time, nor have they sold very well either. But this you can easily tell by how quickly they hit the %70 off rack at game stores.



Minecraft: 15,732,538 people have bought the game.
In the last 24 hours, 19,637 people bought the game.

-https://minecraft.net/stats



You cited one example which I admit does well. I've already stated that me saying all Indie games were bad was too harsh, just most of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheKbob wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Another example would be the 5th edition morale-checks-in-transports, when a CCS lost 2-4 veterans to overheating plasma guns and was required to take a morale check inside a transport, and then failed it. Fortunately, this, too, has been addressed.


Oh, God... I forgot about that!


Yet wouldn't this support the idea that GW does indeed make changes when something is actually broken?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/22 07:13:12


In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Lobomalo wrote:


You cited one example which I admit does well. I've already stated that me saying all Indie games were bad was too harsh, just most of them.


Problem is, I can cite more. But the burden of proof is on you to justify your statements. Now you're actively back peddling to words like "some" or "most."

We could play this game further, but it's a bad one. You'd lose. So the next time you post about Games Workshop stuff, and sticking to the topic of Games Workshop stuff, please keep in mind that if you make an argument, you must back it up with facts. And using "all inclusive" terms sets you up for immediate failure.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Lobomalo wrote:
Sorry this made me laugh, like a lot actually. You realize that this came about by pure accident and was encouraged by the very people we mentioned earlier as rule nazis, those players who look around for any exploit to seek some flaw or advantage within the game?


"Rule nazis" are only a problem because GW writes rules with flaws in them and doesn't care. "Rule nazis" is a meaningless concept in MTG because there are no rule issues to exploit.

Also, no, it wasn't an accident that the "no eyes = no LOS" thing happened, it was GW being lazy about writing clear rules that don't have any room for argument.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





 Peregrine wrote:
 Throt wrote:
but rules problems, these 'broken' parts, mostly come up in tournaments and not in other places.


No, they come up everywhere else as well. You just seem to think that if "casual" players agree to 4+ a rule question instead of taking it to YMDC that the problem never existed in the first place.

No they come up some places and not others. They are non-issues for many.
You assume that because the rule didn't work for you that everyone needed to roll a 4+ and had a problem.
For example
Like I said in a prior post..
In My OPINION..anyone who has an issue with the elder walkers not having eyes and need GW to write a rule to deal with that is an ass hat.
That is my opinion.
Nothing is broken and I don't need additional rules how to deal with line of sight. I dot need to roll a dice for it.
Do you want/need a 700 page rule book cover everything?
Half the things in YMDC are insanity. There was a Fantasy thread that went for 18 pages because of the line that says 'round fractions up' and how it is divided in 1999 point games. Does GW have to write a breakdown of every subtle nuance and possible situation that might arise.
I guess they do for some.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 TheKbob wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Another example would be the 5th edition morale-checks-in-transports, when a CCS lost 2-4 veterans to overheating plasma guns and was required to take a morale check inside a transport, and then failed it. Fortunately, this, too, has been addressed.


Oh, God... I forgot about that!


Yes, I ran into this once, and it was hilarious. My opponent and I agreed that they all just fried inside the transport, pounding helplessly against the metal troop-ramp as the boiling plasma slowly filled the chamber as it leaked from the breached weapons... [/grimdark]
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





 TheKbob wrote:
 Lobomalo wrote:


You cited one example which I admit does well. I've already stated that me saying all Indie games were bad was too harsh, just most of them.


Problem is, I can cite more. But the burden of proof is on you to justify your statements. Now you're actively back peddling to words like "some" or "most."

We could play this game further, but it's a bad one. You'd lose. So the next time you post about Games Workshop stuff, and sticking to the topic of Games Workshop stuff, please keep in mind that if you make an argument, you must back it up with facts. And using "all inclusive" terms sets you up for immediate failure.


Meh, I'm prone to mistakes, yet I admit when I make them. And you'll find that not many Indie games have topped the charts recently. Look back on Ign.com for the last 3 years alone to see, hell you can even see the overall rating of every game ever launched, Indie or not. Some work, most don't, those that do, stick around. The E3 preview is nothing to go off of. E3 always shows off good things, they've done it for years, but as an avid E3 watcher and gamer, most of what they show falls flat upon game launch.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Lobomalo wrote:


Yet wouldn't this support the idea that GW does indeed make changes when something is actually broken?


It was broken for, what, many full editions? So sure, they made changes, but not in any responsible fashion. And very frequently, when they fix one thing, they break more, again referencing multiple on-going, multi-page disputes on YMDC that continue ad naeseum simply because Games Workshop cares not to address them openly and efficiently.

My notion: it's because they can't and aren't allowed to do their jobs properly as rules writers due to management. I'd blame poor leadership prior to bad rules writers. Except Jervis. I cringe whenever I hear him actively spin his nonsense as good.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Lobomalo wrote:
I've already stated that me saying all Indie games were bad was too harsh, just most of them.


And you know why this is true? Because indie game developers have the freedom to take risks and do new things instead of just publishing the annual CoD/football/etc game that is just like last year's game. A chance of failure is inherent in trying to do new things instead of just milking the cash cow with more mediocre-but-profitable games.

Yet wouldn't this support the idea that GW does indeed make changes when something is actually broken?


Yes, occasionally GW does fix things, long after the point when any competent game designer would have done something about it. This doesn't excuse GW's habit of letting obvious mistakes like that slip into published products and then failing to consistently fix them on anything remotely approaching a reasonable schedule.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Wraith






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Another example would be the 5th edition morale-checks-in-transports, when a CCS lost 2-4 veterans to overheating plasma guns and was required to take a morale check inside a transport, and then failed it. Fortunately, this, too, has been addressed.


Oh, God... I forgot about that!


Yes, I ran into this once, and it was hilarious. My opponent and I agreed that they all just fried inside the transport, pounding helplessly against the metal troop-ramp as the boiling plasma slowly filled the chamber as it leaked from the breached weapons... [/grimdark]


I exalted that just for sheer (physics breaking) hilarity of the image.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
 
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