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So yeah the Flickering fire ability is a Warp Charge 1 - 3 power and at first glance that seems a perfectly normal way to play it here's the problem. It's a restrictive power.

Now the rules have changed but they've not updated flickering fire here's the big problem.

Can be manifested using 1, 2, 3 warp charge points - declare how many Warp Charge points will be used before manifesting this power.... fires an additional D6 shots for every Warp Charge point expended after the first

This is restrictive and Codex trumps rulebook. You can as far as I see only ever use 3 Warp Charge to cast Flickering Fire. It doesn't matter though because of that last statement , expend.

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence

3. Take Psychic Test. The Psyker must now expend Warp Charge points and attempt to harness them by taking a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails and nothing further happens. If two or more 6s are rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately...........



To make a Psychic test, you will first need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you are spending and remove them from your pool. Then, roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points you have expended.

Yeah so uh there are a few ways to now interpret this.


1. Flickering Fire only allows you to use 1, 2 , or 3 Warp Charge when manifesting it which uh is suck kind of.

2. Expending warp charge isn't the same as getting a success. That's pretty clear in the new rules.

3. Flickering Fire doesn't care how many successes you get just that you expend Warp Charge that's pretty well laid out and clear

4. It can't ever be cast as a level 3 well you could you'd just like hardly ever do it with only ever being allowed 3 dice.


How I think it works after reading those rules and kind of is more balanced than the terrible alternative


I have 3 Warp Charge points, I expend 3 to cast Flickering Fire at level 1, I get 2 Sucesses which makes it succeed since I expended 3 Warp Charge, it does 4D6 hits. I can't find a way to read this any other way. I mean I went over this multiple times. So let's argue this out cause it seems a bit much.

Why I think this and it's the probably the smartest way to play it?

Because if we go the other route and say well it's not limited to 3 Warp charge when manifesting like it says, then well it makes it so I can expend like as many damn Warp Charge as a I want and charge the spell up to like a 10 D6. You think well you will perils. That doesn't matter when it's coming from a squad of Pink Horrors.

I got to cast Flickering Fire at Level 1 and expend 5 Warp Charge, I succeeded. The spell now does 6D6.


Regardless, the spell doesn't really work RAW, you have to take one of those interpretations. You can only ever use 1 , 2, or 3 Warp Charge when Manifesting flickering fire which uh is pretty clear I think I don't know how you can argue against that.

If it doesn't have this limitation we get crazy D6 Flickering Fires. I mean what happens when I have 30 Warp Charge and power through a Flickering Fire at ST6.

Just a case of old terminology not being properly updated by FaQ. That spell sucks now.

 Eldarain wrote:
Just a case of old terminology not being properly updated by FaQ. That spell sucks now.

What's weird is it kind of doesn't. Cause you have a spell that's a level 1 that can do 4D6 if you use 3 Warp Charge to cast it it still does 4D6 with 1 success. The 1 -3 Warp Charge isn't actually tied to how many Warp Charge you expended. It was at one point in the old rules but using the new rules it actually makes sense and limits the spell but also gives it a boost.

It also overall makes it balanced kind of? Like you have to expend 3 Warp Charge but you still get the 4D6 and succeed on 1 Success which is good.

It's wording prevents it from being abused in powering with 30 Warp Charge, cause it limits it to 3 max.

It does seem to be a problem, the wording does tie the number of Shots generated to the number of points expanded and not to the cost of the power itself.
Clearly a case of an older Codex's terminology no longer matching the newer Rules, going off what you have posted.

JinxDragon wrote:
It does seem to be a problem as the wording does tie the number of Shots generated to the number of points expanded, which is no longer linked to the cost of the spell....

Yeah, I found that odd that was the biggest thing that and it's actuall restrictive and prevents abuse of it cause you cannot use more than 3 warp charge to cast it.

I think it's working as intended..

I just don't think people realize it's suppose to be probably done that way. Like I think people are casting it level 1 with 2 Warp Charge and not realizing it makes it a 3D6 spell from everything I can read. I mean it actually makes sense and kind of works..

Success don't determine the number WCs used. Use three, so long as you get a single success you cast it at full power. Successes only determine how difficult the power is to manifest. It is kind of awesome now. Spend 3 WC, succeed 7/8 times for full power Blasts. Or spen 2 and succeed 3/4 for medium power. Or just spend 1WC with a 1/2 chance of success for low power.

The only limitation is the number of dice you can throw, ie 3. The number of successes has no impact on how powerful the FF is, juts how many WC Points you spend to manifest it.

Did you finish reading the rules for psychic powers?

After rolling your batch of dice, each 4+ generates a warp charge point, and that's what you use to manifest psychic powers.

Also Flicker Fire says you declare the number of warp charges you're using before you roll the test so its not abuseable in the slightest.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Did you finish reading the rules for psychic powers?

After rolling your batch of dice, each 4+ generates a warp charge point, and that's what you use to manifest psychic powers.

Also Flicker Fire says you declare the number of warp charges you're using before you roll the test so its not abuseable in the slightest.

Yes, I did.

Flickering Fire ques off of WC points used to Manifest the power. WCpoints used to Manifest has nothing to do with the number of WC that are harnessed. They are different. What matters is the number of dice spent manifesting, and wheter the power is successfully manifiested, Ie enough WC are harnessed to meet WC cost.

Harnessing=/=Manifesting

What matters are how many dice are expended while manifesting the Psychic Power.

Crown:
Harnessing a Warp Charge and Expending a Warp Charge are two different things.
While the 'Manifesting using 1-3 Warp Charges' would limit the damage it doesn't fix the problem, thanks to this difference.

I think we are all in agreement , Yes? On how it's actually suppose to be used now?

It is limited in that you can only use 1, 2, 3 Warp Charge when manifesting.

Ex:

Tom has 6 Warp Charge in his Warp Pool. He uses a Pink Horror squad and selects Flickering fire he expends 3 Warp Charge the maximum amount he would be allowed. He is casting it as a Level 1 power though, so he needs only one Success. He get's two successes, since he expended 3 Warp Charge the spell is 4D6


Correct? I am assuming this is everyone elses interpretation of this as well?

 Zagman wrote:
Success don't determine the number WCs used. Use three, so long as you get a single success you cast it at full power. Successes only determine how difficult the power is to manifest. It is kind of awesome now. Spend 3 WC, succeed 7/8 times for full power Blasts. Or spen 2 and succeed 3/4 for medium power. Or just spend 1WC with a 1/2 chance of success for low power.

The only limitation is the number of dice you can throw, ie 3. The number of successes has no impact on how powerful the FF is, juts how many WC Points you spend to manifest it.

This is my realization as well. I think people have been playing it the other way where if they want 4D6 they manifest it at a 3 Warp Charge spend 6 Warp Charge then cast the spell hoping to get the 3 Successes. In fact I was doing this until I read it and wasl ike " Wait a second"....

I'm not so sure this is correct; I don't think this power functions very well with 7th Edition rules.

RAW, yes you can only use 1, 2 or 3 WC points to manifest and this is what you have to declare. The problem as I see it comes when you have to compare the number of successfully harnessed WC with the cost in the profile, which in this case is listed as 1-3.
How can we say that it's a WC1 power when it could also be WC2 or WC3? In other words how can we say that one success is enough to pass the psychic test when it could alternatively require 2 or 3 successes?

I think you've raised a good point but unless I'm missing something codex powers from the 6E era with a range of WC costs don't seem to work very well with the new psychic phase rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I'm not so sure this is correct; I don't think this power functions very well with 7th Edition rules.

RAW, yes you can only use 1, 2 or 3 WC points to manifest and this is what you have to declare. The problem as I see it comes when you have to compare the number of successfully harnessed WC with the cost in the profile, which in this case is listed as 1-3.
How can we say that it's a WC1 power when it could also be WC2 or WC3? In other words how can we say that one success is enough to pass the psychic test when it could alternatively require 2 or 3 successes?

I think you've raised a good point but unless I'm missing something codex powers from the 6E era with a range of WC costs don't seem to work very well with the new psychic phase rules.

There's really no reason for it to be Warp Level 1 -3 as you can expend more Warp for a Lower Level spell now, the maximum you can expend with Flickering fire is 3 , so if I expend 3 Warp Charge with a Level 1 spell, I've still expended 3 Warp charge which means it's charged up for the requirement of expending warp charge.

I can't honestly see a reason why it wouldn't work this way. In fact I think it's the only way it's intended to work. I'm sure they need to address it at some point but it is actually working as intended in regards to the rules.

You are still expending 3 Warp Charge to cast it , just like in 6th.

It is a good point,
The reason this loophole even exists is due to the fact the number of points expended is no longer linked to the number of points the spell requires. Because Expending Charges are no longer related to the cost of the Power, we no longer can simply state that it is a 3 point power if 3 points are expended. This means we need an alternative way to find out how much the Power costs, and these instructions are greatly missing as it is a old Power where the point cost was 1 for 1, so it creates a Black Hole in that we do not have a means to determine the power's cost. So can you quote a line stating that you have the choice to decide how many Warp Points this Power costs?

This has gone from a loophole to the power now being unusable because we don't know how many successes we need....

Hollismason wrote:
There's really no reason for it to be Warp Level 1 -3 as you can expend more Warp for a Lower Level spell now, the maximum you can expend with Flickering fire is 3 , so if I expend 3 Warp Charge with a Level 1 spell, I've still expended 3 Warp charge which means it's charged up for the requirement of expending warp charge.

I agree that RAW, if you expend 3 WC then you would get the 4D6 if you successfully manifest the power. My point is that with a variable cost it's unclear whether or not you actually pass the psychic test in 7th.

RAW it is listed as a Level 1-3 power. I can't see how you are able to just define it as a Level 1 power for the purpose of the test.

Because it gives me the choice to select it as a 1 , 2, or 3 level spell. Just never going to select it as a Level 2 , Level 3 spell.

It's in the spell description. Warp Level 1-3. In fact all spells that are like which are like few to none, are weird now.

I get to pick whether I am going to cast it as a Level 1, Level 2, or a level 3.

A point a fact though, the odds of it being cast as a level 3 with 3 dice is ridiculously low. I'd dig them up but it's lest than like 50% chance.

The spell restricts you from using more than 3 spell dice.

I agree that RAW it works the way you describe. It just seems to me to be an oversight from the word "expending" taking on a new meaning in the new rulebook.

I'd love for it to work this way as my Horrors seemed a lot crappier with 7th's system.

The Rule quote you posted states you declare how many Warp Charges are going to be used, not how many Points the Power needs to be successfully manifested.

 Eldarain wrote:
I agree that RAW it works the way you describe. It just seems to me to be an oversight from the word "expending" taking on a new meaning in the new rulebook.

I'd love for it to work this way as my Horrors seemed a lot crappier with 7th's system.

If it doesn't work that way then you'll pretty much almost never be able to cast it at it's full version as you are limited to 3 dice only.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Rule quote you posted states you declare how many Warp Charges are going to be used, not how many Points the Power needs to be successfully manifested.

I'm not sure what your conclusion is? Based on that?

Hollismason wrote:
Because it gives me the choice to select it as a 1 , 2, or 3 level spell. Just never going to select it as a Level 2 , Level 3 spell.

It's in the spell description. Warp Level 1-3. In fact all spells that are like which are like few to none, are weird now.

I get to pick whether I am going to cast it as a Level 1, Level 2, or a level 3.

A point a fact though, the odds of it being cast as a level 3 with 3 dice is ridiculously low. I'd dig them up but it's lest than like 50% chance.

The spell restricts you from using more than 3 spell dice.

This is where your argument breaks down. It doesn't give you a choice to select the WC cost of the power at all. It gives you a choice to use 1, 2 or 3 WC points to attempt to manifest the power.

In 6th the number of WC points you declared determined the cost of FF, but that cost did not influence whether the psychic test was passed or failed. In 7th the number of WC points you can expend are not linked to the cost of psychic powers, but the cost of the power does influence whether or not you pass the psychic test.

So RAW for FF you can use 1, 2 or 3 dice for the psychic test but this doesn't determine what the cost of the power is. As the cost for FF is listed as variable between 1-3 and you need to know which it is to determine the result of the psychic test, without any further information on how to do so it's actually unworkable at the moment.

HIWPI in the absence of an Errata from GW is to declare the WC cost of the FF you wish to manifest and then proceed as per the BRB rolling however many dice for the test that you wish from your WC pool.

How are Warp Charges used in seventh Edition?

Needless to say this Power does not fit into Seventh Edition very well, it is either impossible successfully Manifest or an 87.5% probability of generating enough Shots to wipe out a Horde.

You declare the spell to be WC3. Then you roll. If you fail to get 3 WC then the spell fails. The only real change is that you no longer need ML3 to get the highest number of shots or X number of Pink horrors to get WC3.

Fragile,
Where are you getting permission to declare how many Points the Power costs, as opposed to how many Warp Charges you wish to use on it?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Because it gives me the choice to select it as a 1 , 2, or 3 level spell. Just never going to select it as a Level 2 , Level 3 spell.

It's in the spell description. Warp Level 1-3. In fact all spells that are like which are like few to none, are weird now.

I get to pick whether I am going to cast it as a Level 1, Level 2, or a level 3.

A point a fact though, the odds of it being cast as a level 3 with 3 dice is ridiculously low. I'd dig them up but it's lest than like 50% chance.

The spell restricts you from using more than 3 spell dice.

This is where your argument breaks down. It doesn't give you a choice to select the WC cost of the power at all. It gives you a choice to use 1, 2 or 3 WC points to attempt to manifest the power.

In 6th the number of WC points you declared determined the cost of FF, but that cost did not influence whether the psychic test was passed or failed. In 7th the number of WC points you can expend are not linked to the cost of psychic powers, but the cost of the power does influence whether or not you pass the psychic test.

So RAW for FF you can use 1, 2 or 3 dice for the psychic test but this doesn't determine what the cost of the power is. As the cost for FF is listed as variable between 1-3 and you need to know which it is to determine the result of the psychic test, without any further information on how to do so it's actually unworkable at the moment.

HIWPI in the absence of an Errata from GW is to declare the WC cost of the FF you wish to manifest and then proceed as per the BRB rolling however many dice for the test that you wish from your WC pool.

Yes, but then you run into the issue of expenditure of warp charge, as it specifically states you expend them. Also, that was the case in 6th but not 7th. Actually I am trying to think and can't come up with an example, of another power like this?

Does anyone know of any other powers that are Warp 1-3

I think this may be a unique situation. Anyway regardless , Warp Level is no longer tied to expenditure so rules as written you can use 1, 2, or 3 to manifest the power. Now where it get's unclear is what that 1-3 means and Ican understand your confusion. I would have to look at the BRB if it makes specific mention on this subject Anyone off hand have the book handy and could look this up?

If we go your method though it becomes even more broken. Because of that last statement about Expenditure.

Now just reading it straight up you choose which level you wish it to be and I think that's pretty obvious, but there may not actually be any rules at all regarding spells that have a cost of 1-. If this is a case I'd say the spell is in fact broken currently

HIWPI it and RAW are different right now we know from the spell itself that it is a Warp Level 1-3, this does not mean it is all of them. Unless you wish to argue that.

JinxDragon wrote:
Fragile,
Where are you getting permission to declare how many Points the Power costs, as opposed to how many Warp Charges you wish to use on it?

You have a good point as previously there were I believe rules for this in 6th edition and addressed what a dash meant. Are there rules currently for that? Or has it been turned to nonsense. It states in the spell cost 1-3. You pick which of those levels it is, before it corresponded to warp charge used now it doesn't

I think it actually may be broken.

We can't interpret that 1,2,3 any other way than using those numbers if we are RAW, if we interpret the other way as you stated makes it kind of slowed.

Hollismason,
They only defined what - means in terms of Characteristics, so it is irrelevant out side of those even if this Point cost was a - and not an obvious Range. To my knowledge, the Authors have never defined what X-Y would mean because it is very likely it would mean the same thing to the Rules as it means to the general public out of them: A range between a minimal and a maximum veritable. That leaves us with this little problem, without a way to determine what that veritable actually is the best we can do is stipulate that it may be 1 or 2 or 3. Simply declaring it is a 1 has as much Rule support as declaring that it is 2.569, though declaring it 10 would be outside of the range so we know that can't be a correct answer.

JinxDragon wrote:
Hollismason,
They only defined what - means in terms of Characteristics, so it is irrelevant out side of those even if this Point cost was a - and not an obvious Range. To my knowledge, the Authors have never defined what X-Y would mean because it is very likely it would mean the same thing to the Rules as it means to the general public out of them: A range between a minimal and a maximum veritable. That leaves us with this little problem, without a way to determine what that veritable actually is the best we can do is stipulate that it may be 1 or 2 or 3. Simply declaring it is a 1 has as much Rule support as declaring that it is 2.569, though declaring it 10 would be outside of the range so we know that can't be a correct answer.

I think this is the only instance of a psychic power being this way. Also, we know a fraction is not valid because there is no way to produce a fractional number for Warp Charge. We also know that the book does state when a characteristic is halved you round up, I believe this is still true.

So we now know the answer is it is either 1, 2, or 3. We know it is not 1,2,3 because there's no way to functionally apply that with the rules which leaves us with.

Picking whether it is a Level 1, 2, or 3 spell.

So I think that solves that issue.

The issue is that we're never really give permission really anywhere to do that.

Now of course we both know you have to, and this is just a strictly argument for arguments sake. No one is going to say well it functions as a Level 1 spell the same time it functions as a Level 3 spell.

Now when we go back to referencing the spell again it just states we can use 1, 2, or 3 warp charge. This conflicts but overrides the main BRB as it gives a maximum amount used to generate the spell even though normally you would not be restricted.

Further we know that when expending warp charge for the spell anything after 1 adds an additional D6.

Therefore if you use the Maximium and choose Level 1 @ 3 Warp Charge, you'd get a 4d6 spell.

I mean it can't be really any other way, logically.

There's an artefact in the Black Legion CSM supplement which allows you to manifest Sunburst using 1, 2, or 3 WC Points. It's a Nova power where the bonus from the artefact is essentially an increased range with more WC used. The difference from FF is in this case Sunburst is listed as costing a flat rate of WC1. So RAW you could throw 3 dice at it and if you got 1 success you could still claim the maximum range bonus.

As for actually using that power/artefact, the downside is the 7th edition Pyromancy version of the power possibly isn't quite as good as the 6th edition one. Although the old profile is actually listed in the supplement so I don't know if you could use this over the 7th BRB version.

Also if you fail the test using 2 or 3 WC the psyker is removed as a casualty.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
There's an artefact in the Black Legion CSM supplement which allows you to manifest Sunburst using 1, 2, or 3 WC Points. It's a Nova power where the bonus from the artefact is essentially an increased range with more WC used. The difference from FF is in this case Sunburst is listed as costing a flat rate of WC1. So RAW you could throw 3 dice at it and if you got 1 success you could still claim the maximum range bonus.

As for actually using that power/artefact, the downside is the 7th edition Pyromancy version of the power possibly isn't quite as good as the 6th edition one. Although the old profile is actually listed in the supplement so I don't know if you could use this over the 7th BRB version.

Also if you fail the test using 2 or 3 WC the psyker is removed as a casualty.

Interesting. Yeah I can't think of any psychic powers that are listed as 1-3 , of course I don't have my books with me.

Hollismason,
As you said yourself, we don't have permission to make such as declaration, so I think the only correct answer we can provide to the Opening Post is: Broken ... till fixed by Errata, House Rule away.

Personally,
I would prefer if players declared it a 1, 2 or 3 Point power, with that same number determining how many shots it generates, and then used the default Seventh Edition's method for resolving such things.

JinxDragon wrote:
Hollismason,
As you said yourself, we don't have permission to make such as declaration and I think at this point in time the only correct answer we can provide is: Broken ... till fixed by Errata, House Rule away.

Personally,
I would prefer if players declared it a 1, 2 or 3 Point power, with that same number determining how many shots it generates, and then used the default Seventh Edition's method for resolving such things.

This is actually how I have been using it, but reading it again I was like. Wait a second...

The problem is that you basically just have to rewrite the whole spell.

Yep, hence the need for House Rules to do just that.
Congrats on finding a broken scenario by the way, not as hilarious as Tanks climbing ladders in Sixth Edition's Battlement Rules but another to add to the list.