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 Sigvatr wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Rig, the WoD is not a "snap shot" as defined in the BRB. Its a snap shot for a flamer.

They had to come up with a different name for snap shot template weapon so used Wall of Death.


You should be able to see that.

That's not entirely true. It's not a "different snapshot", it's a different special rule as Template weapons cannot fire Snapshot at all. In this very case, Wall of Death (god, that name...) overrides Invisibility as the ability to fire Snapshots is already taken away by the weapon type.

Why?

Youre told he can only be targetted through snapshots. You have stated they cannot fire snapshots, yet can still target him. Proof please - because otherwise there is no way to evoke WoD, as you cannot target with the flamer (remembering overwatch is normal shooting, so follow the normal rules including declaring targets, selecting weapons, etc)

Eth - no, it is not a snapshot. At all. A snapshot is a defined term, WoD is not equal to this term, so it is not a snapshot. As such it cannot be used to bypass DL rules

According to your statement, then everything that assaults a unit with templates would technically be unable to use WoD as they would have to snap fire at the unit which they can't because they are using a template. WoD isn't a snapshot so you can't shoot at that unit. Your logic is flawed.

Incorrect, as you are making a false analogy, belied by the actual rules. Overwatch imposes the snapshot restriction on the unit firing. DL says he can only be targetted by snapshots, not that you can only fire snapshots. Wall of Death kicks in instead of firing a snapshot with a template during overwatch. So while you could normmally use WoD, as you are not targetting him with a snapshot - you are explicitly NOT doing so - yo umay not fire

Again, find permission to fire. Page and para this time.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, you would be able to hit Deathleaper if it weren't for the fact you don't even have permission to fire the template weapons in the first place.

I understand that, but I am not firing anything. Heck, I was having a cup of tea and suddenly I scored D3 hits.

.....by firing a template weapon. Following the normal shooting rules. Or was that you conceding the point through humour? IT was tricky to tell.

I can see where this thread is going, not surprised at all. I know what "automatic D3 hits" mean, I can tell that you never will.

Time to move on.

Naw wrote:
I can see where this thread is going, not surprised at all. I know what "automatic D3 hits" mean, I can tell that you never will.

Time to move on.

Cool, so you can inflict automatic hits against a flyer as well? Or does "automatic" not always mean "automatic" perhaps....

Ah well, tried following the tenets, I can see you never will.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Rig, the WoD is not a "snap shot" as defined in the BRB. Its a snap shot for a flamer.

They had to come up with a different name for snap shot template weapon so used Wall of Death.


You should be able to see that.

I see that they specifically said Template weapons cannot Snap Shot. There's no exception to that.
They can fire Overwatch but still cannot fire snap shots.

Do you have a rules argument?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Naw wrote:
I can see where this thread is going, not surprised at all. I know what "automatic D3 hits" mean, I can tell that you never will.

Time to move on.

Cool, so you can inflict automatic hits against a flyer as well? Or does "automatic" not always mean "automatic" perhaps....

Uh, looks like I need to respond to this.

Which flyer is going to assault the flamer?

Ah well, tried following the tenets, I can see you never will.

So I am making up the wall of death rule, is that what you are saying?

Im going to concede my point about what I understand WoD to be. I already know that there is no way to back it using RAW so theres no point continuing that train of thought here.


However I do still agree with the other point of view that WoD is in fact not a normal shooting attack at all and thus not limited to the "not a snap shot and thus cant target deathleaper".

Its pretty simple: If your getting charged, WoD allows a flamer to inflict D3 automatic hits, no matter what is charging or what rules it has, since their is no model that has a special rule stating "This model is unaffected by WoD".

Fluff-wise you are absolutely correct, as Wall of Death is basically the enemy running right into your burst of firey goodness.

Eihnlazer wrote:


Its pretty simple: If your getting charged, WoD allows a flamer to inflict D3 automatic hits, no matter what is charging or what rules it has, since their is no model that has a special rule stating "This model is unaffected by WoD".

Precisely. It's even backed up by the rules as portrayed above - Wall of Death takes precedence over Invisibility thus you use its rules.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:


Its pretty simple: If your getting charged, WoD allows a flamer to inflict D3 automatic hits, no matter what is charging or what rules it has, since their is no model that has a special rule stating "This model is unaffected by WoD".

Precisely. It's even backed up by the rules as portrayed above - Wall of Death takes precedence over Invisibility thus you use its rules.

HOW does it take precendence?

You MUST target them using weapons firing snapshots
Templates CANNOT fire snapshots
WoD is NOT a snapshot...

so explain - where is the specific override? Name it.

Naw - deathray. Hits automatically, yet cannot ever hit a flyer. Try again - or would you like to restate your very general claim, and possibly, maybe, use some rules to back up your assertions? That would be useful. I am not saying you are making up WoD, just that when told you can only fire snapshots, and WoD isnt a snapshoit (very EXPLICITLY not a snapshot) you need something more than your usual "because I said so" refusal to follow the tenets.

look what is the deal. WoD does hits when the flamer is being assaulted. Death ray specifically cannot hit flyers due to the Hard to Hit rule of the flyers, so your argument is invalid. Your unit has not restriction against the WoD. I hope you can see the connection.


I would suggest to calm down, cut the attitude ( we understand if you do not like the rules),

Kalhas.

How do you perform a shooting attack?
You nominate a unit (the unit being charged)
You nominate a target (the unit charging)
You nominate a weapon group in the unit and roll To Hit.

Deathleaper can only be targeted by Snap Shots.

Since Template weapons cannot fire Snap Shots, they cannot target Deathleaper.

Wall of Death is something that happens instead of Snap Shots during Overwatch, however, it does not come into effect, if you cannot target the enemy with it in the first place.

Overwatch is a shooting attack resolved as snapshots against a charging unit.

Invisibility states that enemy units can only fire snap shots at the targeted unit.

Wall of death provides it permission to fire overwatch even though it cannot fire snapshots.

I understand where the opposing side is coming from. They believe that any shooting attack against the unit must be a snapshot and wall of death is not a snap shot.

But wall of death was written so that template weapons, a weapon that automatically hits, can take part in overwatch since template weapons can't snap shot.

I interpret the permission to overwatch superseding any restriction on the unit in regards to snap shots in the same manner that a necron lightning field has sufficient permission to inflict D6 hits on any unit that makes it into combat with it.

 Happyjew wrote:
Deathleaper can only be targeted by Snap Shots.

Slightly incorrect - models can only fire Snap Shots when targeting Deathleaper.
Doesn't make a difference to your post, but it's a distinction that could (in theory) make a difference.

Your train of thought is legit. As for the vicious cyrcle argument, WoD happens instead of snapshots. I would definitely discuss such an issue with my opponent before a game, or just roll on who is right. after all i do play to have fun not to argue over who is the best rule lawyer

To be honest, i would blame the age of the Codex and/or the QA testing of rules and Codices
This is not the first issue we as a community (i do read but not write often) came across such silly rule issue.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Deathleaper can only be targeted by Snap Shots.

Slightly incorrect - models can only fire Snap Shots when targeting Deathleaper.
Doesn't make a difference to your post, but it's a distinction that could (in theory) make a difference.

Fair enough. I was away from my book, and wasn't 100% sure on the exact wording.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Deathleaper can only be targeted by Snap Shots.

Slightly incorrect - models can only fire Snap Shots when targeting Deathleaper.
Doesn't make a difference to your post, but it's a distinction that could (in theory) make a difference.

During OW, does the unit being assaulted declare the charging unit as a target? Or is this step skipped/not included because the charging unit is the one declaring the target?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Naw wrote:
I can see where this thread is going, not surprised at all. I know what "automatic D3 hits" mean, I can tell that you never will.

Time to move on.

Cool, so you can inflict automatic hits against a flyer as well? Or does "automatic" not always mean "automatic" perhaps....

Ah well, tried following the tenets, I can see you never will.

Do automatic hits from Tesla hit a Flyer ?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Deathleaper can only be targeted by Snap Shots.

Slightly incorrect - models can only fire Snap Shots when targeting Deathleaper.
Doesn't make a difference to your post, but it's a distinction that could (in theory) make a difference.

During OW, does the unit being assaulted declare the charging unit as a target? Or is this step skipped/not included because the charging unit is the one declaring the target?

To resolve a shooting attack (what Overwatch is) there has to be a target. When firing Overwatch your target is selected for you.

sonicaucie wrote:
Overwatch is a shooting attack resolved as snapshots against a charging unit.

Invisibility states that enemy units can only fire snap shots at the targeted unit.

Wall of death provides it permission to fire overwatch even though it cannot fire snapshots.

I understand where the opposing side is coming from. They believe that any shooting attack against the unit must be a snapshot and wall of death is not a snap shot.

But wall of death was written so that template weapons, a weapon that automatically hits, can take part in overwatch since template weapons can't snap shot.

I interpret the permission to overwatch superseding any restriction on the unit in regards to snap shots in the same manner that a necron lightning field has sufficient permission to inflict D6 hits on any unit that makes it into combat with it.

It isnt specific, so does not override.

You MUST fire snapshots. Agred?
Now find permission to overwrite that requirement. Page and para. Otherwise the more specific codex rule wins out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - deathray. Hits automatically, yet cannot ever hit a flyer.

That is not relevant to this discussion, it has nothing to do with assaulting, WoD rule or Deathleaper. Why do you even try to use that as an example?

again - or would you like to restate your very general claim, and possibly, maybe, use some rules to back up your assertions? That would be useful.

Why say this when in the next sentence you say the following? You have taken this rather personally again and this behaviour was also noted by another poster.

I am not saying you are making up WoD, just that when told you can only fire snapshots, and WoD isnt a snapshoit (very EXPLICITLY not a snapshot) you need something more than your usual "because I said so" refusal to follow the tenets.

Was I assaulted? Yes, then proceed with D3 automatic hits. It is a special rule.

You MUST fire snapshots. Agred?

Not agreed, as it is not required by the WoD rule.

Now I believe I am done, there is nothing else to add. I'll keep following the rules the way I (and my group) have read them.

Naw wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - deathray. Hits automatically, yet cannot ever hit a flyer.

That is not relevant to this discussion, it has nothing to do with assaulting, WoD rule or Deathleaper. Why do you even try to use that as an example?

Sigh.
Because you made a claim that "automatically hits" was all that was needed to hit. I pointed out an example where just having "Automatic hits" isnt sufficient to, you know, hit. Meaning that the actual rules have to be read to understand why this is the case - for flyers it is hard to hit, for DL it is the requirement that you are firing snapshots.

Naw wrote:

again - or would you like to restate your very general claim, and possibly, maybe, use some rules to back up your assertions? That would be useful.

Why say this when in the next sentence you say the following? You have taken this rather personally again and this behaviour was also noted by another poster.

Not personally, just you have (again) made assertions without backing them up. Just saying "WoD says so" isn't actually a rules argument. Your consistent behaviour was also noted by posters in prior threads

You made a general claim - automatic hits always hit, essentially - and I proved it wrong. I asked if you wanted to restate, yet you havent taken the chance to.

Naw wrote:

I am not saying you are making up WoD, just that when told you can only fire snapshots, and WoD isnt a snapshoit (very EXPLICITLY not a snapshot) you need something more than your usual "because I said so" refusal to follow the tenets.

Was I assaulted? Yes, then proceed with D3 automatic hits. It is a special rule.

Did you fire a snapshot? No? Then DL cannot be targeted, at all. You are following the shooting rules, which require a target, yes? And you are targetting DL with a weapon that CANNOT, EVER, snapshot, yes? And you are then firing at him...why?

DL is also a special rule, and one more specific than you. He wins. As does invisibility.

Naw wrote:

You MUST fire snapshots. Agred?

Not agreed, as it is not required by the WoD rule.

Ah, so youre ignoring DL special rule then - good to know youre breaking a rule and have permission to do so because....?

Naw wrote:Now I believe I am done, there is nothing else to add. I'll keep following the rules the way I (and my group) have read them.

No, there is something else to add - rules support for your breaking DLs rule by shooting non-snapshot weapons at him. Something substantive would be helpful.

To add another level to this, I ask the following question... can you use the Wall of Death rule if the unit being charged was falling back? It is another case of something other than standard overwatch limiting you to just snap shots, so do people feel that the WoD rule is usable here or not?

I hope nobody is holding their breath on GW FAQing this issue since they still haven't bothered to correct the horrible wording in the pyrovore's "Volatile" rule.

Strick interpretation of Deathleaper's power/Invisibility, Wall of Death cannot be used against the unit. Strict interpretation is silly in a game this badly written.

Personally I think in RAI a flamer would hit Deathleaper. But RAW it doesnt, cause there is never mentioned to WoD being a snapshot.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Personally I think in RAI a flamer would hit Deathleaper. But RAW it doesnt, cause there is never mentioned to WoD being a snapshot.

Its even more concrete than that - WoD is explicitly not a snapshot.

The "it works" side has no rules support, just the "well WoD says it works" non-argument.

 Happyjew wrote:
Fluff-wise you are absolutely correct, as Wall of Death is basically the enemy running right into your burst of firey goodness.

Point with Deathleaper specifically (those other units who cheated through invis don't count *cough*) being the unit don't see him coming / are firing in random directions, and he's more like Ninja bug than just charging dead on a la Fex . Quite easy for them to wall of flame in the wrong direction and therefore never touch him.

Unless you've positioned your models in a circle, all encompassing. Then I'd allow it for fluff.