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 streamdragon wrote:
I agree that Warbosses are a suboptimal choice, except for their Waaagh rule. That alone makes fielding a barbones Warboss worthwhile. Put him on a bike, give him 3 nobz to be a bodyguard. T6 will save him from any S*2 ID.

I think Battlewagons are still seriously good transports, and to keep them alive a Big Mek on a Bike with a KFF is hard to beat. He's got 4+/5++ and can jink if he really has to. Have him in the same unit as the warboss, hiding behind your battlewagons full of killy stuff. MANz, Slugga Boyz and Burna Boyz in battlewagons are still effective. His Waaagh! will let your boyz run and charge. Honestly, I'm wary of Pain Boyz. They're ICs, so not hard to pick out in CC and are basically running on their FNP(5+ I think?). Like the Warboss, they're not that great once they actually get INTO combat. They're better off keeping your ranged elements alive.

I'm not that impressed with the Waaagh! rule either. Most of our good assault units are also short-range shooting units; shoota boys, bikes, tankbustas, burna boys. The assault is used to finish the enemy off after shooting them up. I'd rather fall short on my charge than give up my short-range shooting. Dedicated ork assault units seem generally pretty weak; the only one I would give up shooting on is meganobs and they can't run anyway.

I don't see painboys being that easy to gank in close combat. There will usually be a boss nob in the squad to handle the first challenge and possibly another independent character to handle a second one. Worst case scenario, just keep him at the back and refuse challenges.

The only really great thing about a warboss in my opinion is the fact he is Ld 9 and can take a bike, but for the cost I think I'd rather have another 5 bikers in the unit. That should be enough to make up for a couple of failed Ld tests with the new mob rule.

I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

I hear that. I'm more or less flabbergasted that they took away any sort of Invuln save from our Warbosses. Every race and their mothers have Invul saves left and right, especially for their HQs and most of the Characters as well. A Warboss is only GOOD in CC, where he needs to get too ASAP. And now more than ever, he will continue to be worse at this than every other race in existence. (Except maybe Tau). I love all my Warboss models too. I painted them to each have Star Trek colored shirts and everything! Because...I'm strange? They just look cool! I don't care they are all AOBR! :(

I'll still try to use them from time to time in a near full infantry army. You can't have a WAAAGH without him! (Both figuratively, and now literally with the new rules....) I'm just sad they spat in the faces of the guys who are supposed to be the roughest and toughest!

I dont know if its proper to ask it here, so sorry if no, but hou do you think hou will this codex reflect on ork kill team ? Im kinda have this idea of Shota boyz and Komandos meiby with Boss Snik and maiby fit in ther a trukk somehou )? what do you think? Also any rumors on when can 7 ed kill team drop ?

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

You're just starting to worry about this now? Warbosses have been dying in challenges for almost as long as we have had challenges.

 darkflame182 wrote:
I dont know if its proper to ask it here, so sorry if no, but hou do you think hou will this codex reflect on ork kill team ? Im kinda have this idea of Shota boyz and Komandos meiby with Boss Snik and maiby fit in ther a trukk somehou )? what do you think? Also any rumors on when can 7 ed kill team drop ?

I always thought playing vehicles in KT was kinda dirty. Even bikes or jetbikes often felt dirty D:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

You're just starting to worry about this now? Warbosses have been dying in challenges for almost as long as we have had challenges.

no bro they could at least survive with the cybork 5++, which always helped me out.

I don't think the Warboss is useless. Yeah, he'll get the snot beat out of him by a SM Eternal Warrior 3++ Chapter Master with a Thunderhammer, but who wouldn't?

On a Warbike he can safely charge Riptides and Wraithknights. Sweeping a Riptide is easy, and can even deal considerable damage to a Wraithknight. He deals 2.8 Wounds on a Charge and 2.2 wounds per turn after. The Wraithknight deals 1.666 Wounds per turn to the Warboss. 1v1 the Wraithknight has an advantage, but part of any other unit the Wraithknight can't allocate wounds to the Warboss. A Riptide only deals .5Wounds/ Turn against a Warboss Biker.

Charging a unit of Centurions. Tacticals. Lord on CCB. Etc. Basically charging any unit that isn't a decked out CC monster.

He puts an average of 3+ HPs on anything with AV11 Rear armor.

Even if the Warboss is just on Warbike in a unit of boyz and splits off to take out another target, he has his uses. Even with a ID Melee Weapon, he has a good chance to simply take out a Wraithknight without missing a beat. There are many many targets he can simply kill on his own without needing an Invuln. The things he'd need an invuln against, say a decked out Chapter Master, he'd lose anyway with a 5++.

The 5++ is what made Nobz viable IMO. Without it, extremely susceptible to Manticores, which are goddamn everywhere in IG and simply 2+ them off of the table now.

I like the idea of Warbikers as the *new* Nob Bikers. I have a crapload of them, as long as they don't FAQ Zadsnark out of the game (touch wood) could have a lot of fun there.

Can big mek take a burna, and a Kustom force field on a bike?

That way you can run around repair things, shoot things with the bike, or be a bubble jumper.

Maybe some stormboy/trukk rush synergy?

 Dakkamite wrote:
The 5++ is what made Nobz viable IMO. Without it, extremely susceptible to Manticores, which are goddamn everywhere in IG and simply 2+ them off of the table now.

I like the idea of Warbikers as the *new* Nob Bikers. I have a crapload of them, as long as they don't FAQ Zadsnark out of the game (touch wood) could have a lot of fun there.

Same here. I'm sitting on roughly 20 of them, and I'd still like to run them if I can, though I may end up doing a much sought after Walker army this time around.

I don't get why 5++ is seen as something that will let your nobz or warboss survive a whole lot of punishment. The statistics show it will only work a third of the time, and in my games it hasn't been decisive. Nice sometimes yes. Making a huge difference, no.

I don't see the loss of cybork body as much of an issue. Then again I like my SM captain with his shield eternal and the warboss is just a wuss in comparison.

Waaargh wrote:
I don't get why 5++ is seen as something that will let your nobz or warboss survive a whole lot of punishment. The statistics show it will only work a third of the time, and in my games it hasn't been decisive. Nice sometimes yes. Making a huge difference, no.

I don't see the loss of cybork body as much of an issue. Then again I like my SM captain with his shield eternal and the warboss is just a wuss in comparison.

Because a 1/3 of the time is better than 0. It was worth the small point investment to give us ANY way to stick around longer.

Edit: Also, the point is...the Warboss shouldn't be a wuss. He should be a genuine threat. If he gets stuck in, the other player SHOULD have concerns. Not laugh it off like it's nothing.

 Zagman wrote:
I don't think the Warboss is useless. Yeah, he'll get the snot beat out of him by a SM Eternal Warrior 3++ Chapter Master with a Thunderhammer, but who wouldn't?

On a Warbike he can safely charge Riptides and Wraithknights. Sweeping a Riptide is easy, and can even deal considerable damage to a Wraithknight. He deals 2.8 Wounds on a Charge and 2.2 wounds per turn after. The Wraithknight deals 1.666 Wounds per turn to the Warboss. 1v1 the Wraithknight has an advantage, but part of any other unit the Wraithknight can't allocate wounds to the Warboss. A Riptide only deals .5Wounds/ Turn against a Warboss Biker.

Charging a unit of Centurions. Tacticals. Lord on CCB. Etc. Basically charging any unit that isn't a decked out CC monster.

He puts an average of 3+ HPs on anything with AV11 Rear armor.

Even if the Warboss is just on Warbike in a unit of boyz and splits off to take out another target, he has his uses. Even with a ID Melee Weapon, he has a good chance to simply take out a Wraithknight without missing a beat. There are many many targets he can simply kill on his own without needing an Invuln. The things he'd need an invuln against, say a decked out Chapter Master, he'd lose anyway with a 5++.

The problem is that many of those tasks can be accomplished more easily with another unit that doesn't risk giving up extra kill points.

Riptides and Wraithknights are still AP2 from smash, so you're getting no save. Granted the Riptide is a problem for most/all Ork units, but I feel like some of the new Mek Gunz are much better suited to dealing with it.

AV11 armor? Lootas or again Mek Gunz can and will trash it without having to get into CC.

And while the 5++ wouldn't keep him alive forever against decked out CC monsters, it also saved him from "not necessarily combat monster but still has AP2" things like TMCs. I seriously don't understand how people can coo and tout the new 5+ FnP while lamenting how somehow useless 5++ was.

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

they are also at i 1 then... outside of MC not much AP2 thats not I 1 as well.

your ork also can take a relic that rends, and insta kills on 6's, at the WB's initiative now.

you need to re think the "always take a PK" mentality, there are a few better options now, put a PK boss in a unit, and a relic choppa in the unit, for challenges where you have to go first use the i4 insta death rending guy, for others the PK boss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we are also, the ONLY race, outside of eldar,

to have RANGED weapons that insta gib on 6's as well.

teleportas on MANz, 5++ on mans, killsaws+1 attack as well, lots of good stuff for MANz,

sure no 5++ in combat only, but relying on a 5++ to save you is not going to win games. re rolling a 2+ guaranteed on the warboss is better then a 5++ you will fail most of the time.

 easysauce wrote:

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

they are also at i 1 then... outside of MC not much AP2 thats not I 1 as well.

your ork also can take a relic that rends, and insta kills on 6's, at the WB's initiative now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we are also, the ONLY race, outside of eldar,

to have RANGED weapons that insta gib on 6's as well.

teleportas on MANz, 5++ on mans, killsaws+1 attack as well, lots of good stuff for MANz,

sure no 5++ in combat only, but relying on a 5++ to save you is not going to win games. re rolling a 2+ guaranteed on the warboss is better then a 5++ you will fail most of the time.

With high abundance of AP 2, rerolling that 2+ is absolutely useless. Give me back my 5++.

Melevolence wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

they are also at i 1 then... outside of MC not much AP2 thats not I 1 as well.

your ork also can take a relic that rends, and insta kills on 6's, at the WB's initiative now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we are also, the ONLY race, outside of eldar,

to have RANGED weapons that insta gib on 6's as well.

teleportas on MANz, 5++ on mans, killsaws+1 attack as well, lots of good stuff for MANz,

sure no 5++ in combat only, but relying on a 5++ to save you is not going to win games. re rolling a 2+ guaranteed on the warboss is better then a 5++ you will fail most of the time.

With high abundance of AP 2, rerolling that 2+ is absolutely useless. Give me back my 5++.

you HAVE a 5++ still from the KFF from shooting..... and you can re roll that 5++ now... as opposed to your 2+ dudes getting mowed down by ap2 fire and ignores cover before, now they actually get ++ saves



in close combat, 99% of ap2 is at I1, so you get to dish out damage, and unless you are in a challenge, you dont have to take the wounds on your boss.

against everything in close combat/shooting that isnt ap2, having a guaranteed re rollable 2+ is a huge buff.

Waaargh wrote:
I don't get why 5++ is seen as something that will let your nobz or warboss survive a whole lot of punishment. The statistics show it will only work a third of the time, and in my games it hasn't been decisive. Nice sometimes yes. Making a huge difference, no.

I don't see the loss of cybork body as much of an issue. Then again I like my SM captain with his shield eternal and the warboss is just a wuss in comparison.

It doesn't make them "survivable" it just makes them more difficult to 2+ away. Certain stuff hard countered the living gak out of Nob Bikers, wiping out hundreds of points of them in one shot (meanwhile, FW is "unbalanced"). The 5+ at least made that a little less of an issue.

Warbikers + PB is looking pretty legit, and Orks are looking... well, pretty reasonable now with multi-FoC. Without it, I feel we lack the characters needed to make our army durable enough to do anything at all.

 easysauce wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 tehinchman wrote:
I am really worried about challenges against the warboss now though. The optimal wep for the boss is PK of course and if some SM char has anything ap 2 the warboss is done for. btw would that also mean you loose the waagghh rule as well?

they are also at i 1 then... outside of MC not much AP2 thats not I 1 as well.

your ork also can take a relic that rends, and insta kills on 6's, at the WB's initiative now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we are also, the ONLY race, outside of eldar,

to have RANGED weapons that insta gib on 6's as well.

teleportas on MANz, 5++ on mans, killsaws+1 attack as well, lots of good stuff for MANz,

sure no 5++ in combat only, but relying on a 5++ to save you is not going to win games. re rolling a 2+ guaranteed on the warboss is better then a 5++ you will fail most of the time.

With high abundance of AP 2, rerolling that 2+ is absolutely useless. Give me back my 5++.

you HAVE a 5++ still from the KFF from shooting..... and you can re roll that 5++ now... as opposed to your 2+ dudes getting mowed down by ap2 fire and ignores cover before, now they actually get ++ saves



in close combat, 99% of ap2 is at I1, so you get to dish out damage, and unless you are in a challenge, you dont have to take the wounds on your boss.

against everything in close combat/shooting that isnt ap2, having a guaranteed re rollable 2+ is a huge buff.

KFF is a good buff, I never said anything otherwise. I'm talking in close combat.

And yet the issue still stands. Anyone who goes into cc with a warboss WILL declare a challenge. It's stupid of them not too, otherwise the Boss will wipe everything out while his Boyz suck up wounds. In a challenge, in many cases, the boss will die. Period. Even if striking at the same time. Thats why I would rather have the 5++ while in CC over rerollable 2+ with armor. At least that way I can AVOID damage when I'm striking at the same time as other power weapons.

Melevolence wrote:


KFF is a good buff, I never said anything otherwise. I'm talking in close combat.

And yet the issue still stands. Anyone who goes into cc with a warboss WILL declare a challenge. It's stupid of them not too, otherwise the Boss will wipe everything out while his Boyz suck up wounds. In a challenge, in many cases, the boss will die. Period. Even if striking at the same time. Thats why I would rather have the 5++ while in CC over rerollable 2+ with armor. At least that way I can AVOID damage when I'm striking at the same time as other power weapons.

isnt the painboys FNP a 5++ in that you can roll it even if you fail or cant roll the AP2?
so take a painboy instead.... unless you already were, so now you want a 5++ and FNP. I just think the warboss will be way more survivable than you give it credit for if you deck him out. Lucky stixx and head wompa. doesn't even need that mega armour, re-rolls on wounds, likely to get an ID on the enemy, put him on a bike. He even has a PK that you can use if you wish.

multiple warboses. There reasonably cheap for the stats. Rather than an unholy deathstar, multiple threats that can bring the pain. yeh a challenge could end him... accept the challenge with your mek, your painboy, your nob. Your suggesting we run him solo? or that he is in a unit without other characters. since when has that ever been the case?

 streamdragon wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I don't think the Warboss is useless. Yeah, he'll get the snot beat out of him by a SM Eternal Warrior 3++ Chapter Master with a Thunderhammer, but who wouldn't?

On a Warbike he can safely charge Riptides and Wraithknights. Sweeping a Riptide is easy, and can even deal considerable damage to a Wraithknight. He deals 2.8 Wounds on a Charge and 2.2 wounds per turn after. The Wraithknight deals 1.666 Wounds per turn to the Warboss. 1v1 the Wraithknight has an advantage, but part of any other unit the Wraithknight can't allocate wounds to the Warboss. A Riptide only deals .5Wounds/ Turn against a Warboss Biker.

Charging a unit of Centurions. Tacticals. Lord on CCB. Etc. Basically charging any unit that isn't a decked out CC monster.

He puts an average of 3+ HPs on anything with AV11 Rear armor.

Even if the Warboss is just on Warbike in a unit of boyz and splits off to take out another target, he has his uses. Even with a ID Melee Weapon, he has a good chance to simply take out a Wraithknight without missing a beat. There are many many targets he can simply kill on his own without needing an Invuln. The things he'd need an invuln against, say a decked out Chapter Master, he'd lose anyway with a 5++.

The problem is that many of those tasks can be accomplished more easily with another unit that doesn't risk giving up extra kill points.

Riptides and Wraithknights are still AP2 from smash, so you're getting no save. Granted the Riptide is a problem for most/all Ork units, but I feel like some of the new Mek Gunz are much better suited to dealing with it.

AV11 armor? Lootas or again Mek Gunz can and will trash it without having to get into CC.

And while the 5++ wouldn't keep him alive forever against decked out CC monsters, it also saved him from "not necessarily combat monster but still has AP2" things like TMCs. I seriously don't understand how people can coo and tout the new 5+ FnP while lamenting how somehow useless 5++ was.

Not necessarily. Yes, Riptides and Wraithknights are AP2 from Smash, but a Riptide gets three swings, hits with one on average, and wounds half the time. And costs twice as much. Warboss wins this one. Yes, Wraithknights can kill them, but hidden in a unit its wounding the Wraithknight on 2s, has a better weapons skill, and can be hidden with Ablative Boyz.

I was references AV11 Rear armor, ie Russes, Barges, etc. Basically anything that has good front armor and is hit on its rear armor in CC. You are also missing that the Warboss can move with a unit and break off for opportune targets for an auto kill, where as Lootas and Mek Gunz offten have differeing target priority.

I never said the 5++ wasn't a loss, it just wasn't the deciding factor against CC Monsters. TMC will die quickly to a Warboss as most are not Characters and the 5++ on the Warboss wouldn't have been relevant. FNP is better than a 5++ is many situations, every one where you get another save actually.

I'm not saying the Warboss is the be all end all of challenges or CC, but he is still a damned good CC unit that is fast, can seperate from units when necessary, and can single handedly take out threats that are a problem for the army in general. Its far easier to split a Warboss on Bike off and take out a Riptide in CC, than it is to try and take one out in shooting.

Ork have use for a unit like that. And its one hell of a lot of S10 AP2 attacks in CC that as long as you have another character in the unit to challenge and he can mulch enemy units. 4 S10 attacks per turn, usually with one reroll which i didn't even factor in above, is a lot of potent CC ability.

Its about options and not getting into CC with the things a Warboss shouldn't, which happen to be the exact same things he should have avoided last codex. He can't handle a tooled out Chapter Master, but he can handle alot of other things and brings S10 to the table which is always awesome.

Well said Zagman, bemoaning the loss of CB is somewhat pointless when there's nothing you can really do about it besides working around it like a proppa Ork would do. If it really bothers you that much no one's forcing you to play Orks, or hell if you have decent friends ask them to see if you can house-rule CB to give a 5++ like it did previously.

Also the constant comparisons of the WB to the Shield Eternal CM is pretty unfair given the points disparity between the two, I should hope that the model that costs more would beat our cheap beat-stick HQ. I mean even with the CB from before the WB didn't have a very good chance of taking down the CM so it's not that big of a deal to begin with.

ok put a warboss on abike witha bike mek and kff in a squad of bikers. hide behind 3 wagons, add in trukks. speed freaks list seems good.

what would you put in the wagons, burnas or boyz?

 zachwho wrote:
ok put a warboss on abike witha bike mek and kff in a squad of bikers. hide behind 3 wagons, add in trukks. speed freaks list seems good.

what would you put in the wagons, burnas or boyz?

Given that shoota boyz got a mild price hike burna boyz might not be a bad option here. They help negate the BW's weaknesses of being assault by the ubiquitous krak-toting marines since very few units can handle 12+ burnas being auto-hit in their face during overwatch and create a veritable denial zone with the 3 wagons. Course you probably want to cover their sides with each other+Trukks or something. Just keep them away from any template weapons. Then there's also the Mek's you can keep in the unit to repair it against any HP losses or immobilized results.

 zachwho wrote:
ok put a warboss on abike witha bike mek and kff in a squad of bikers. hide behind 3 wagons, add in trukks. speed freaks list seems good.

what would you put in the wagons, burnas or boyz?

Burnaz in the spear tip, slugga boyz w/ nob in one side, maybe MANz in the other? I'd guard the sides of the BWs as Grimskul said with a couple units of 'ard boyz in Trukks.

 easysauce wrote:
in close combat, 99% of ap2 is at I1,

Really? What Chaos player do you know that doesn't take the AoBF on his lord? What Space Marine player do you know that isn't taking the Burning Blade, or doesn't have the Shield Eternal to laugh off that power-claw?

What Tyranid HQ's are you fighting that aren't rocking native AP2 from being MC's?

What Daemon players do you know who fight you in CC with an HQ that isn't an MC or isn't taking a 10-point etherblade?

99% of AP2 might be initiative 1 normally, but in a competitive setting, you'll rarely find just a naked powerfist/equivalent.

i like that, i think I'll do a arsonist themed speed freak trukk list with wagons.

can the burnas fire overwatch from an open xport? haven't refreshed my rule knowledge for them yet.

So with all the talks about challenges and loss of 5++ being a big hit (I agree mostly) I think we really need to be aware of what characters we stacking in these units.

So Mr.Smashface SM ChapterMaster rolls up with his buds on a bike to challenge my Warboss's unit. Fine you get to tango with the MekBoy while my Boss does the heavy lifting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zachwho wrote:
i like that, i think I'll do a arsonist themed speed freak trukk list with wagons.

can the burnas fire overwatch from an open xport? haven't refreshed my rule knowledge for them yet.

Yes, oh yes. And I don't believe it has to be open topped, you can have a ard case. And the fireports don't have to be facing I believe.
I could be totally wrong.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
in close combat, 99% of ap2 is at I1,

Really? What Chaos player do you know that doesn't take the AoBF on his lord? What Space Marine player do you know that isn't taking the Burning Blade, or doesn't have the Shield Eternal to laugh off that power-claw?

What Tyranid HQ's are you fighting that aren't rocking native AP2 from being MC's?

What Daemon players do you know who fight you in CC with an HQ that isn't an MC or isn't taking a 10-point etherblade?

99% of AP2 might be initiative 1 normally, but in a competitive setting, you'll rarely find just a naked powerfist/equivalent.

all those things kicked warbosses butts when they had 5++.... sure they still kick a warbosses butt now that he doesnt have a 5++....what is your point exactly.

now I have the option to be smart, and sacrifice a different character to the challenge, and have instant death weapons in my wargear list that strike at initiatve I now have the option to take.

orks also have instant death shooting weapons.

right there are a few good OPTIONS i have that i didnt before, to deal with MCs and especially MC that outclass everything in my codext in HTH combat, as they have ALWAYS done...


this is a tactics thread, less QQ about what might have been and what was and more tactics!



seriously, do NOT underestimate the power of the orks now... we have instant death CCW, we have instant death SHOOTING... unless I am missing somthing, outside of eldar and D weapons, thats not somthing everyone has...

and its now a blast, so hits most of the time, and a 2 w 2+ 5++(with mek) 5+++(with painboy) shooting platform that can take grots to reroll....


also.. the freaking SAG... it wont go vortex that often... but when it does.. your oponent is so utterly fethed... its a large str d blast that keeps drifting over their feild...


ohhhh yeah... going to be good...


this codex is HUGE for MANZ, and gives boys a nice threat range boost so we dont have to waste as many points getting them into combat.

 easysauce wrote:
all those things kicked warbosses butts when they had 5++.... sure they still kick a warbosses butt now that he doesnt have a 5++....what is your point exactly.

My point is that "99% of AP2 in the game goes at initiative 1" is a silly argument for anything.

now I have the option to be smart, and sacrifice a different character to the challenge

Which is irrelevant to the topic of discussion, which was "how good are Warbosses in a challenge", the answer to which is "not very".

I don't give a gak about orks, in fact I don't even play orks. So spare me your ironic complaining about other peoples' complaining. The power level of Orks is of no concern to me. I'm just pointing out that your apologist argument for a Warboss' effectiveness in a challenge is flawed. Any model that's relying on a mere 2+ save to survive a challenge is screwed unless you're using him as a bully unit and beating up termagaunts and guardsmen and tactical squads or something.