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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
If the unit has scout, they confer it to the transport. Both then have scout and are allowed to be deployed outside of their deployment zone.
If the Transport has scout, and the unit does not, the Transport can redeploy, but cannot redeploy outside of your deployment zone. To do so, you would need to find permission for a non-scouting unit to deploy in transport outside of your DZ.

Incorrect.
Scouts deploy normally first, then optionally redeploy after normal deployment. They are not like Infiltrators.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Here's two interesting tidbits.

Page 130, under deployment zones. "We've found that 12" away from the center line works best; this ensures that armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while still giving you enough space on a typical table to deploy your army".

Ok, so GW flat out said that 1st turn charges are ok, but they want them hard to do.

Page 132: Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.
Where's permission to be deployed outside your DZ?

I see permission for the vehicle to be their, but not the embarked unit.

They deployed inside the vehicle. The vehicle deployed in the dz, then redeployed outside. At no point did the unit embarked ever redeploy because, and this has been pointed out repeatedly, no rule says they have.

So it's put up or shut up time, again. Find a rule stating they have redeployed. Page and para. Failure to do so is instant concession on this point.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
But it has been redeployed in it.

Statement without rules support - assumption.

If a Transport hasn't been deployed, the unit can't be deployed in it.

Incorrect - Transports can be in Reserves with units deployed in them.

Not incorrect. Holding in Reserves is not being deployed. Neither the unit, nor the transport have been deployed if they are held in Reserve. Reserve rules allow for Combined Units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They deployed inside the vehicle. The vehicle deployed in the dz, then redeployed outside. At no point did the unit embarked ever redeploy because, and this has been pointed out repeatedly, no rule says they have.
So it's put up or shut up time, again. Find a rule stating they have redeployed. Page and para. Failure to do so is instant concession on this point.

Page 132.
Models must either deploy in their deployment zone, or be held back in reserve.
Models can be deployed 'inside' building, fortifications, or Transports vehicles in their deployment zone,...
When you are done with deployment and redeployment, is that unit in question deployed in a vehicle in your DZ as required by the deployment rules?
Did it deploy legally? Yes.
Is it deployed legally? Possibly not. This depends on when Deployment ends.

Then the question is, when does DEPLOYMENT end?
Page 132 has everything up to rolling for seize the initiative as part of "Standard Deployment Method".
Scout has it taking place after deployment, but before the roll to steal initiative, which is between steps 3 and 4 of the Standard Deployment.
Since scouting is redeployment and takes place before the end of the Standard Deployment Method, I'd argue that standard deployment isn't done and you're still required to follow deployment rules.

If deployment ends as soon as the model is on the table, then you would indeed be able to assault out of a scouting transport.
Now, I've given you a bit to read, please work on where in the rules deployment ends, and if Deploy does or doesn't equal Deployed.
Pages if possible.

I actually believe that RAW, it is possible to assault out, I'm just working through the whole process to eliminate any possibility of doubt.

Scout moves and rolling to seize the initiative happen at the same time frame of "after deployment but before turn 1"

This leads me to believe it happens after standard deployment.

You siad it yourself, really - "Scout has it taking place after deployment, but before the roll to steal initiative, which is between steps 3 and 4 of the Standard Deployment"

It is *after* deployment, meaning they *have* deployed (past tense) within a vehicle inside their deployment zone. That the vehicle, after deployment, moves outside f the DZ is irrelevant, as you are not required to re-evaluate the deployment-status of the unit inside - in fact you cannot, as no rule allows / compels you to.

It is clear ot me that, once deployED inside a vehicle, the unit has deployED unless another rule states otherwise. Scout does not state otherwise for an embarked unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You siad it yourself, really - "Scout has it taking place after deployment, but before the roll to steal initiative, which is between steps 3 and 4 of the Standard Deployment"

It is *after* deployment, meaning they *have* deployed (past tense) within a vehicle inside their deployment zone. That the vehicle, after deployment, moves outside f the DZ is irrelevant, as you are not required to re-evaluate the deployment-status of the unit inside - in fact you cannot, as no rule allows / compels you to.

It is clear ot me that, once deployED inside a vehicle, the unit has deployED unless another rule states otherwise. Scout does not state otherwise for an embarked unit.

So you're saying it's ok to break deployment rules before the end of "Standard Deployment", as long as the sequence that got you there is legal.
It's a "Don't go left" rule, and you just made 3 right turns.
To take this to an extreme... nevermind, that thought needs it's own thread.

-Matt

You gavent broken the rules though. You have indeed deployed legally. After deployment the vehicle scouts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You gavent broken the rules though. You have indeed deployed legally. After deployment the vehicle scouts.

And redeployment is not Deployment, even if it happens during Standard Deployment.

Be advised that the Ghaz supplement provides us with a Formation that includes 5 battlewagons with the Scout special rule. They bother to specifically add, as a SPECIAL RULE, that models inside the Battlewagons cannot assault on the first turn if the Battlewagons used a scout redeployment.

I would take this as an implication that you CAN assault from a scouting vehicle (assuming assault vehicle, not out of reserves, etc), normally.

The Scouts special rule says that the unit with this special rule makes the scout redeployment. Any unit that makes a scout redeployment cannot charge on the first turn. The infantry models are not moving at all, themselves (although they counts-as moving FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOOTING, not for any other purpose, thanks to Combat/Crusing speed rules) - it's just the vehicle that's making the scout movement. Nor are they considered the same unit as the vehicle.

So, the natural conclusions to the above: the infantry models inside do NOT!! need the Scout special rule - the transport vehicle having it is sufficient. Assuming the infantry inside do not have the rule, they cannot make a scout redeployment themselves (they don't have the rule!). If they are somehow making this scout redeployment despite the findings above, then HOW are they moving more than 6" as per Infantry Scouting? It is very clear that infantry cannot scout more than 6". If they are doing so anyway, this is VERY CLEARLY against the rules.

Therefore, they are not scout redeploying, and can charge on the first turn. OR, The vehicle can only move 6" due to the infantry models inside counting-as scouting as well, despite not having the special rule themselves (and therefore being unable to make a scout move). OR. The vehicle cannot scout at all, as it's holding models inside who cannot make a scout move.

Dilt wrote: The infantry models are not moving at all, themselves (although they counts-as moving FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOOTING, not for any other purpose, thanks to Combat/Crusing speed rules) - it's just the vehicle that's making the scout movement. Nor are they considered the same unit as the vehicle..

This is not correct - a redeployment is not a move, and even if it were it would not matter as it is prior to the first turn, meaning that the embarked unit would not have been in a moving vehicle the phase before their shooting phase.

 Dilt wrote:


So, the natural conclusions to the above: the infantry models inside do NOT!! need the Scout special rule - the transport vehicle having it is sufficient. Assuming the infantry inside do not have the rule, they cannot make a scout redeployment themselves (they don't have the rule!). If they are somehow making this scout redeployment despite the findings above, then HOW are they moving more than 6" as per Infantry Scouting? It is very clear that infantry cannot scout more than 6". If they are doing so anyway, this is VERY CLEARLY against the rules.

Apply this same logic to a tac squad deep striking in a drop pod.

I think it was summed up earlier,

If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

I disagree with the interpretation of your rules sir.

taurising wrote:
I think it was summed up earlier,

If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

I disagree with the interpretation of your rules sir.

Not true at all.
The unit arrived from Reserve that turn. They're forbidden from assaulting the turn they arrive from Reserve.
It helps to know the rules before trying to craft an argument.

taurising wrote:
I think it was summed up earlier,

If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

I disagree with the interpretation of your rules sir.

How do you assault when you have arrived from reserve? Or are you making up other rules as well?

taurising wrote:
If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

Nearly, but not quite.

A unit is held in reserve, embarked on a transport, the unit confers scout and therefore outflank on the vehicle.
Both units come on from reserve (despite the passengers being off-table), even though it is the vehicle doing the moving, so no assault.

What their argument is claiming, is that both units arrive from reserve, but it is the vehicle that is scouting (so in this case, outflanking) which is why its wrong.
For their argument to remain consistent, this must be the case, which it clearly isn't.

So, still no rules support ? Just checking.

I think this discussion can be left at "Scout USR needs clearing up".

It repeats how units may not disembark from their DT (and so should also re-specify how they cannot charge) but as it does not specify, charging on turn 1 is allowed by RaW.

Intended? I highly doubt it. They must have wanted the wording to work like it does for infiltrate, but it just doesn't...

If they wanted it to work like infiltrate, they could have used the exact same wording. That they didnt can only be intentional (I dont assume they randomly write sentences down...despite some evidence of this...) and so claiming "RAI" on no-assault is also fairly tricky to do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, still no rules support ? Just checking.

Was that aimed at me?

In any case, I don't think you have proved in any way that the passengers have not been redeployed, where does it say that?
The simple reading of the rule certainly shows that both units' position has changed, because of the scout rule, therefore both units have redeployed via scout.
Nothing in the rules suggests that this is not true.

Is it true that if a scout unit in a dt, which is placed in reserves and the combination outflanks, the transport outflanks but not the unit? To remain consistent with your argument. that must be true.
If it is, then scout redeployment inside a vehicle would work the way you say.

Either both units scout and redeploy/scout and outflank or just the vehicle does, where do the rules state they are different?

No, youre wrong. You have to prove they HAVE been redeployed, as the RULES do not state that they have been

The plain, to the letter reading of the rule is that the vehicle redeploys. The unit inside NEVER changes its deployment - they remain DEPLOYED inside the vehicle, the new location they are still DEPLOYED inside the vehicle. Note, no redeployment there.

Again, your "argument" results in the transport only redeploying 6". The actual rules state 12", so your argument is unlikely to be correct.

Would you answer the questions I put or not?

Why is scout redeployment different to scout outflank in a dt?

I answered the relevant questions

WIll you answer why you are redeploying the vehicle 12", not 6" as yoru "argument" results in?

I would not say it is any different: The unit is deployed inside the transport, whether it's in reserves or outflanking.
Only the transport outflanks, and it can arrive empty or filled, which would make no difference RaW-wise

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I answered the relevant questions

Another refusal then.
Personally, I think you are bright enough to know where I am going with this, so you want to avoid it at all costs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WIll you answer why you are redeploying the vehicle 12", not 6" as yoru "argument" results in?

I will if you but do the same which you have refused to so far.
Care to redeem yourself?

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would not say it is any different: The unit is deployed inside the transport, whether it's in reserves or outflanking.
Only the transport outflanks, and it can arrive empty or filled, which would make no difference RaW-wise

Thankyou Black Talos.
I will reply, but would like to see what nos says first ... not holding breath.

Ah, so I answer your relevant questions - not all - but you refuse to answer one?

Classy!

So, can you prove they have been redeployed? The burden is on you. Do so, or concede.

Further refusal is concession, as the point is so far proven.

So you havent answered all relevant questions then, glad you admit that.

No, the burden is on you to prove that a unit that changes its position via the scout rule has not redeployed.

No concession.

This point can easily be moved beyond if you answer my question. You know what's coming so an impasse would be good for you.

No, I answered ALL RELEVANT questions, not ALL questions. Nice try attwisting words though!

I have done. The unit has remained in exactly the same deployment-state as it was before - Embarked. Can you please prove they HAVE redeployed, given the actual rules - you know, as youve been asked to?

Concession accepted.

 fuusa wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would not say it is any different: The unit is deployed inside the transport, whether it's in reserves or outflanking.
Only the transport outflanks, and it can arrive empty or filled, which would make no difference RaW-wise

Thankyou Black Talos.
I will reply, but would like to see what nos says first ... not holding breath.

But this defies your point (in a way):

The embarked unit is deployed inside the transport - the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, and unless (like Infiltrate and possibly outflank, definitely "reserves") the rule states any restrictions about units embarked, they may assault / shoot / run / teleport as normal...?

Ie turn 1 charge fully legal, and so is charging from outflanking - IF the restriction from arriving from reserve did not exist.

Redacted.