Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This was a thought that I am surprised never occurred to me before and it never has been really answered. Where do they get more gene-seed from? I already know that the apothecary goes to a fallen battle brother to harvest their gene-seed so that they may place it in a new recruit but what happens when they can't recover it like after an enemy takes over a world and they didn't have time to collect all the gene-seed from their fallen brothers, do they have the capabilities of producing more and if they don't, wouldn't this make them all finite in number? Then the eventual question comes to, what the feth do the Chaos Legions do to replenish their numbers?

Well for one, IIRC it's either the Administratum or the High Lords of Terra who hold the Gene Seed reserves to be released at times when needed. Also, I believe gene seed cultivated from a battle brother can be used to grow more, as I think gene seed are zygotes.

Plus you're forgetting Astartes have two gene seed glands, one's harvested soon after they become a battle brother and receive the black carapace.

There are 2 progenoids in every marine, each chapter keeps a reasonable stockpile of geneseed. Partially to prevent such a situation as you have laid out, and partially because they are required to submit samples of geneseed for inspection.

I already know that the apothecary goes to a fallen battle brother to harvest their gene-seed so that they may place it in a new recruit but what happens when they can't recover it like after an enemy takes over a world and they didn't have time to collect all the gene-seed from their fallen brothers, do they have the capabilities of producing more and if they don't, wouldn't this make them all finite in number?

Sort of. Geneseed creates a copy of itself, and can then also be removed after death, so one successful implanation of the gene-seed will allow for 2 Space Marines in the future to be grown from it.

However, as only two people have ever created viable geneseed (the Emperor Himself and Fabius Bile... sort of), there is no real way to get replacement or new geneseed. That is why Chapters and the AdMech keep secured stores of geneseed, both for testing its purity and for maintaining a supply to create new Space Marine Chapters.

A Marine Chapter that loses its stores of Geneseed and its Apothecaries to harvest it is doomed to extinction.

CSM either get gene-seed from Fabius Bile, or by harvesting it from dead Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:

I already know that the apothecary goes to a fallen battle brother to harvest their gene-seed so that they may place it in a new recruit but what happens when they can't recover it like after an enemy takes over a world and they didn't have time to collect all the gene-seed from their fallen brothers, do they have the capabilities of producing more and if they don't, wouldn't this make them all finite in number?

Sort of. Geneseed creates a copy of itself, and can then also be removed after death, so one successful implanation of the gene-seed will allow for 2 Space Marines in the future to be grown from it.

However, as only two people have ever created viable geneseed (the Emperor Himself and Fabius Bile... sort of), there is no real way to get replacement or new geneseed. That is why Chapters and the AdMech keep secured stores of geneseed, both for testing its purity and for maintaining a supply to create new Space Marine Chapters.

A Marine Chapter that loses its stores of Geneseed and its Apothecaries to harvest it is doomed to extinction.

CSM either get gene-seed from Fabius Bile, or by harvesting it from dead Space Marines.

Isn't it possible to clone it? I remember that being how a CSM warband created it, I think it was Honsou's with the Iron Wombs.

It's self-cloning, in a sense, but requires implanting it into a living human host.

But there is a finite supply then? If one essentially gets massacred and they can't recover enough gene seed then it is possible for a chapter to be completely destroyed?

Also, what happened with the whole business of what Corax did after the Raven Guard were annihilated on Isstavan V? Did he just try to produce Marines too quickly or had a bad time with the replication of the gene-seed since he lost a lot of his legion that day.

Actually that goes for all the Legions involved in the Drop Sight Massacre.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

I already know that the apothecary goes to a fallen battle brother to harvest their gene-seed so that they may place it in a new recruit but what happens when they can't recover it like after an enemy takes over a world and they didn't have time to collect all the gene-seed from their fallen brothers, do they have the capabilities of producing more and if they don't, wouldn't this make them all finite in number?

Sort of. Geneseed creates a copy of itself, and can then also be removed after death, so one successful implanation of the gene-seed will allow for 2 Space Marines in the future to be grown from it.

However, as only two people have ever created viable geneseed (the Emperor Himself and Fabius Bile... sort of), there is no real way to get replacement or new geneseed. That is why Chapters and the AdMech keep secured stores of geneseed, both for testing its purity and for maintaining a supply to create new Space Marine Chapters.

A Marine Chapter that loses its stores of Geneseed and its Apothecaries to harvest it is doomed to extinction.

CSM either get gene-seed from Fabius Bile, or by harvesting it from dead Space Marines.

Isn't it possible to clone it? I remember that being how a CSM warband created it, I think it was Honsou's with the Iron Wombs.

Based on the wording of how the Blood Angels implant the organs, each progenoid has what is required to create a new one in the host.

EDIT: Damn you, Psienesis.

But there is a finite supply then? If one essentially gets massacred and they can't recover enough gene seed then it is possible for a chapter to be completely destroyed?

Yes, indeed. Happens fairly often. It's a Grim Galaxy of Perilous Adventure, after all.

what happened with the whole business of what Corax did after the Raven Guard were annihilated on Isstavan V? Did he just try to produce Marines too quickly or had a bad time with the replication of the gene-seed since he lost a lot of his legion that day.

He overstepped his bounds. The God-Emperor of Mankind was, in addition to being the most-powerful human psyker to ever live (possibly the most powerful psyker of any kind, bar none, to ever live), a brilliant strategist and devastating war-leader, he was also the World's Greatest Scientist, and invented gene-seed. Corax was not that good, and so messed it up something fierce, and got... what he got. Corax tried to do genetic science with an Eazy-Bake Oven.

 Envihon wrote:
But there is a finite supply then? If one essentially gets massacred and they can't recover enough gene seed then it is possible for a chapter to be completely destroyed?

Yes. To quote the Crimson Fists IA article: "According to the genator-adepts of the Adeptus Mechanicus, a chapter reduced to less than a company of brethren has only a 20-25% chance of survival, for the failure rate of the progenoid gland will often preclude the successful harvesting of new gene-seed, resulting in an inability to induct new brethren."

When new chapters are created the AdMech selects a single set of implants and uses a succession of vat-grown slaves (in lieu of marines) to produce an entire chapters worth of marines, but the Astartes themselves do not seem to use this method to supplement their stocks.

I suspect that the parent Legions/Chapters keep a lot more on hand than the regular foundings since they were the progenitor of the Chapters after Guilliman set forth the Codex Astartes?

 Envihon wrote:
I suspect that the parent Legions/Chapters keep a lot more on hand than the regular foundings since they were the progenitor of the Chapters after Guilliman set forth the Codex Astartes?

No, not really. Other than the successor chapters that were created by breaking up the legions, successor chapters are created by the AdMech using the tithed geneseed and not the founding chapter.

I doubt the legions had much in the way of stockpiles when they were split, I doubt they had vast stockpiles at the outbreak of the heresy since the legions were no restricted in size like modern chapters, their 'stockpile' would take the form of extra marines. What stockpiles they had would have likely been drained dry in an attempt to replace losses in during the heresy itself. What remained would have likely been split evenly during the 2nd founding, since under the mandate of the Codex the 'original' chapters should have no reason for any more than the successors.

Older chapters have however had time to build up a stockpile - the 13th Black Crusade fluff mentioned the Subjugators as having to walk a fine line as being being a recently created chapter they didn't have the stockpiles of older chapters, so had to be very wary of taking losses.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I suspect that the parent Legions/Chapters keep a lot more on hand than the regular foundings since they were the progenitor of the Chapters after Guilliman set forth the Codex Astartes?

No, not really. Other than the successor chapters that were created by breaking up the legions, successor chapters are created by the AdMech using the tithed geneseed and not the founding chapter.

So if they come from the AdMech what is the point of having Chapter Tactics if they no longer source themselves from the Legions?

Because Successor Chapters are lead by veterans from the parent Chapter, in most cases.

So let's say that it has been decided to found a new Chapter of Space Marines. The AdMech looks around and says, "Hey! We have a fethload of Ultramarine gene-seed in the cooler! Let's use that!"

So they implant a bunch of kids with geneseed. Calgar points a finger at a bunch of Ultramarines and says "here's your chance, guys! You all just became Company Commanders of this new Chapter they're making. You... no, you with the red... yeah, you just became a Chapter Master, congratulations! Your ship leaves in an hour." So these Veteran Marines now become the command staff of the new Chapter, and they bring with them some relics and gifts from the UM stores to stock the new Chapter. The AdMech will otherwise supply the new Chapter with all the bolters, power armor, and other stuff they need.

As these former-UM veterans train the new recruits, they'll select from them those who show the most potential to be Sergeants, meanwhile teaching them everything they know. Though this is hardly unique to the UM, this is why the UM Successor Chapters (currently 60% of all Space Marines are descended from the Ultramarines) are all pretty similar to the UM. They all have a shared history and lineage, and have all trained in pretty much the same ways.

However, in some cases, the Successor Chapters do deviate wildly from their parent chapter - Chapter Tactics are a result of training, not Gene Seed.

For example, the Mantis Warriors are a Successor Chapter of the White Scars. However, while that would imply that the Mantis Warriors were bikers, the truth is far different - the Mantis Warriors have White Scar Geneseed, but their tactics and training are far more along the lines of the Raven Guard crossed with the Imperial Fists... although to my knowledge, there is no real fluff as to why this is the case, as their training officers' identities have never been made public.

The inquisition also regularily audits gene-stock from all chapters, whether they want to be or not, during this audit imperial decree demands a tithe which is sent off (to terra I assume) to a large stockpile and further tested to make sure genetic corruption is within tolerable limits..
From here the inquisitors in charge have the means to "reinforce" chapters assuming they have the right seeds.. Or in rare and extreme cercumstances can even create a new chapter using the strongest and most stable seeds as either a sanctioned sub-chapter not linked to its parent or it's own stand alone chapter, these line chapters are often tasked with a specific duty and are beholden to none but the inquisition... Often not even being told which chapter/s they came from.

 Inquisitor Bob wrote:
The inquisition also regularily audits gene-stock from all chapters, whether they want to be or not, during this audit imperial decree demands a tithe which is sent off (to terra I assume) to a large stockpile and further tested to make sure genetic corruption is within tolerable limits..
From here the inquisitors in charge have the means to "reinforce" chapters assuming they have the right seeds.. Or in rare and extreme cercumstances can even create a new chapter using the strongest and most stable seeds as either a sanctioned sub-chapter not linked to its parent or it's own stand alone chapter, these line chapters are often tasked with a specific duty and are beholden to none but the inquisition... Often not even being told which chapter/s they came from.

We already established that, however it is not the Inquisition that the tithe is sent to but the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
However, in some cases, the Successor Chapters do deviate wildly from their parent chapter - Chapter Tactics are a result of training, not Gene Seed.

For example, the Mantis Warriors are a Successor Chapter of the White Scars. However, while that would imply that the Mantis Warriors were bikers, the truth is far different - the Mantis Warriors have White Scar Geneseed, but their tactics and training are far more along the lines of the Raven Guard crossed with the Imperial Fists... although to my knowledge, there is no real fluff as to why this is the case, as their training officers' identities have never been made public.

You do get chapters created for a specific purpose so that might be one means by which a new chapter might deviate from its parents' predilictions. Random influences in the early stages of a chapters development would also disproportionately affect their preferred tactics.

I remember reading somewhere that in emergencies some Chapters would "farm" more gene seeds by implanting them into slaves for the focus of just growing them and replenishing their losses. Was that a actually thing some Chapters did to replenish their large losses?

Sure. Could be that the Vets sent to lead the new Chapter just weren't keen on the ways of the old Chapter, and wanted to reinterpret the CA in a certain way, or give it the big middle digit or whatever. Maybe schlepping them off to a different Chapter gives the CM of the originating Chapter a politically-viable way of getting rid of some pains in his arse or something.

Alternately, the Marines that are assigned to lead new Chapters might be from a Chapter that is entirely different from where its gene-seed comes from. That way, you get rather strange combos of Chapter Tactics and gene-seed tendencies.

That does make the fluff behind Chapter Tactics to make more sense especially when the Black Templars get their own Chapter Tactics despite being a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists.

So does this also mean that if one wanted to create their own Chapter, that they could say that the gene-seed of the Chapter came from one parent Chapter but for whatever reason, adopted another Chapter's tactics it would be perfectly fluff legal?

Not that I would ever do it, I like the Imperial Fists way too much but someone could say they came from the Salamanders but adopted Imperial Fist tactics?

Sure, though they'd be more like IF than they would be Salamanders, unless they had a homeworld that very much resembled Nocturne and had similar cultural background.

It'd be one of those things that was an interesting background detail, but would not have much of an effect on their operations... except for giving them the same gene-seed flaws as any other Salamander descendant (black skin, red eyes, etc.).

That is pretty awesome actually. I always thought the Chapter Tactics was pretty rigid and that the Chapter had to always come from the same Chapter they shared their tactics with but it adds a creative tool box for creating a Chapter of your own.

Nah, these kinds of shenanigans are how you end up with Chapters that have no idea who they are the successors to.

Groups like the Blood Ravens, who everyone (TM) wants to be Loyalist Thousand Sons, but that does not logically work out very well in their timeline (they did not appear on the scene until way, way, way after the Heresy, long after anyone who had access to 1KS gene-seed would have even considered using it) or the ones that just don't fething know who contributed their first gene-seed implants... usually because their current tithe has mutated and diverged to a point that it cannot be clearly established.

And then there are those poor bastards that get chimeric gene-seed, where someone had the idea to mix gene-seed from this Chapter with gene-seed from that Chapter... that never, ever works out well.

 Psienesis wrote:
Nah, these kinds of shenanigans are how you end up with Chapters that have no idea who they are the successors to.

Groups like the Blood Ravens, who everyone (TM) wants to be Loyalist Thousand Sons, but that does not logically work out very well in their timeline (they did not appear on the scene until way, way, way after the Heresy, long after anyone who had access to 1KS gene-seed would have even considered using it) or the ones that just don't fething know who contributed their first gene-seed implants... usually because their current tithe has mutated and diverged to a point that it cannot be clearly established.

And then there are those poor bastards that get chimeric gene-seed, where someone had the idea to mix gene-seed from this Chapter with gene-seed from that Chapter... that never, ever works out well.

I'd say hybrids worked out well for the Imperium. Honsou works as a culling mechanism for Chaos, sucking up a bunch of resources from the Archenemy, then utterly annihilating his own force while accomplishing little.

 Wyzilla wrote:


I'd say hybrids worked out well for the Imperium. Honsou works as a culling mechanism for Chaos, sucking up a bunch of resources from the Archenemy, then utterly annihilating his own force while accomplishing little.

The Black Dragons, on the other hand...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


I'd say hybrids worked out well for the Imperium. Honsou works as a culling mechanism for Chaos, sucking up a bunch of resources from the Archenemy, then utterly annihilating his own force while accomplishing little.

The Black Dragons, on the other hand...

Black Dragons don't seem to be hybrids as much as they are Salamander Gene Seed that got lost in the Eye of Terror, then had some rather beneficial results. Negative mutations my ass, when you get Space marines with wolverine-style monomolecular bone swords, you ask for more, not scream at them for being mutants. Bless the curse indeed.

There should be more novels on the Dragons teaming up with the Sisters instead of a rogue Canoness. Insert a scene with a Dragon Claw's remark to being called a filthy mutant as bisecting a Chaos Space Marine, then asking the sister if he's still a dirty mutant, or a useful dirty mutant.

As far as I've understood geneseed of different lines is never mixed (except for the experiments of the "cursed" founding). So if the High Lords of Terra for some reason had a core of Blood Angels officers found a Chapter from the plentiful Ultramarines stock in store the BA stock would be culled and sent to reinforce a BA-descended Chapter or just stored otherwise. The veterans might give the new Chapter a good deal of their own traditions but they wouldn't be allowed to pass on their geneseeed.

 Psienesis wrote:

But there is a finite supply then? If one essentially gets massacred and they can't recover enough gene seed then it is possible for a chapter to be completely destroyed?

Yes, indeed. Happens fairly often. It's a Grim Galaxy of Perilous Adventure, after all.

what happened with the whole business of what Corax did after the Raven Guard were annihilated on Isstavan V? Did he just try to produce Marines too quickly or had a bad time with the replication of the gene-seed since he lost a lot of his legion that day.

He overstepped his bounds. The God-Emperor of Mankind was, in addition to being the most-powerful human psyker to ever live (possibly the most powerful psyker of any kind, bar none, to ever live), a brilliant strategist and devastating war-leader, he was also the World's Greatest Scientist, and invented gene-seed. Corax was not that good, and so messed it up something fierce, and got... what he got. Corax tried to do genetic science with an Eazy-Bake Oven.

The proces workt perfectly, but it was sabotaged by the Alpha legion.