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 Sigvatr wrote:
Just basing this on vague memories. Technically, I don't think that there would be any need for genders anyway...hm. Gonna look the interwebz up. Nothing beats alien sex!

Just a random thought, they do reproduce similarly to humans, don't they? And if they do, would their females have breasts as well? Given that reproduction seems more like a "service" to them?

Fan Art says yes, but we've never been given a canon description of a Tau female outside of her crisis suit, so there's nothing known for sure. They are a race that breeds sexually, however, though they do not form family units.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just basing this on vague memories. Technically, I don't think that there would be any need for genders anyway...hm. Gonna look the interwebz up. Nothing beats alien sex!

Just a random thought, they do reproduce similarly to humans, don't they? And if they do, would their females have breasts as well? Given that reproduction seems more like a "service" to them?

Fan Art says yes, but we've never been given a canon description of a Tau female outside of her crisis suit, so there's nothing known for sure. They are a race that breeds sexually, however, though they do not form family units.

Fan Art says a lot of things, many of which are not suitable to post

Female Tau could well have breasts but that doesn't mean they will be big. Considering the Fire Caste has been bred for war and so would be required to be fast moving and athletic, I think it is highly likely that they would have quite flat chests, and hence be easily hidden underneath armour.

Small breasts do just as good a job feeding babies as big ones, after all.

Indeed. The Tau are a pretty small race in general, it is highly unlikely that a Tau female would be sporting double-Ds.

 Ailaros wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:and decent

Yes, but if you just wanted to win games, you wouldn't be playing sisters in the first place. There's lots of CC ability in the sister's "codex", just not if you're powergaming.

And certainly, the distinction between SM as the choppy ones and SoB as the shooty ones doesn't make all that much sense either.

I laughed.

Sisters are very good at winning games. Also, immo-spam is better than razorspam because of the added durability and reduced carrier costs for the squads required to field the tanks.

But, yes. Marines are tactically flexible, in theory, with a wide range of wargear and options.

Sisters are... significantly more aggressive, while preferring not to get pinned in close combat. They're more numerous and offensively superior due to Acts of Faith, while being defensively slightly more fragile due to only having T3, which isn't entirely made up for by a blanket 6++ (or 5++ if you take Jacobus) invulnerable save.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Small breasts do just as good a job feeding babies as big ones, after all.

Yes, that's why I also think that they might just as well have no "breasts" after all, but just nipples, assuming that they do breast-feed their young ones. Big breasts have the sole purpose to attract males and I don't think that a race like the Tau works that way. Precisely as you said, I think that athletic, strong females will be highly preferred.

I find it highly unlikely, personally, that the Tau breast feed any more. Their technology is advanced enough that they probably use synthetic replacements that actually are as good as breast milk, so they can free the mothers up to go back to the front lines while the leverets are creched.

Agree

 Desteele wrote:

Also have a female IG army which grew from the inducted IG squads you could have in the Witch Hunters codex. Once you have one platoon, it ‘seemed’ sensible to keep the theme going.

I bought a ton of Escher to use as Inducted Guard back in the day. Even a bunch of Juves to put into my sentinels. Now they're a (slowly building) guard force in their own right.

They probably have Nursing Drones that hover around the domiciles.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Just a random thought, they do reproduce similarly to humans, don't they? And if they do, would their females have breasts as well? Given that reproduction seems more like a "service" to them?

Breasts have absolutely nothing to do with how a species reproduces. They could fertilise with telepathy and the females could vomit up a gel that eventually coalesces into a baby Tau, and whether or not they have breasts would still be as relevant a question. Breasts exist as a particular form of nurture (which means that species that nurture their young do not need to have them), as well as providing a space for additional mass storage (useful for bearing children). They could reproduce identically to humans and not have mammaries, because the two aren't connected.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Big breasts have the sole purpose to attract males

That is completely untrue.

 Sigvatr wrote:

I don't think that a race like the Tau works that way.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Given that reproduction seems more like a "service" to them?

Their physiology has little to do with their culture. Regardless, sexual selection takes place in every species.

My take on it is that the Tau have breasts, simply because Games Workshop are all but incapable of coming up with aliens that aren't just differently-flavoured humans. Fire Warrior armour is bulky enough to make this a non-concern for modelling purposes, anyway. For reproduction, I like the idea that they reproduce entirely through science, which could take a number of forms. Perhaps each citizen is required to donate a sample of their DNA, and this is used (after extensive processing to filter out all but the best genes, and ensure genetic diversity) to birth new Tau. Another method is something I suggested in another thread, a good while ago:

Frozen Ocean wrote:It's entirely possible (even likely) that the Tau don't rely on the standard and barbaric methods of reproduction we filthy humans do. That is; a gamete from each parent fertilised in what some might erroneously call "a test tube" or "a petri dish". The embryo could then develop in a machine. This would require a female and male Fire Warrior maybe a day each (sitting in the waiting room, getting the a gamete - or if their technology is sufficient to create stem cells, then any cell from their body - extracted, leaving and going back to their duties). This would also allow a huge degree of ability to genetically screen and perhaps modify the DNA of the Tau-to-be, or even just create the ideal combinations of parents to benefit genetic diversity. It would be fitting for the Tau. Gene extraction could even be a duty in of itself.

CpatTom wrote:I was always partial to this idea of lab grown baby blues. It seemed so clean and orderly, everything in its place. Not the messy bloody affair that humans kick and scream into. Seemed fitting for the Tau.

Frozen Ocean wrote:It does seem fitting for the Tau, CpatTom! There is no reason why they wouldn't do this and many reasons why they should, and it blends thematically (in terms of fluff-feel) with their obsession with perfection and control. There's no reason why their continual pursuit of advancing science shouldn't encompass genetics.

This doesn't suggest they would have the ability (or the inclination) to entirely remove things like breasts, so it's a bit off-topic. Just my bit on Tau reproduction in the modern era. It would have no bearing on female battlefield presence, though. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, there is no mention of Shadowsun's gender being remarkable, no "a Commander, even though she's a girl and those are icky", just stuff about being the youngest to do some things. Discrimination is really unfitting of the Tau, anyway.

 Ailaros wrote:
There's lots of CC ability in the sister's "codex", just not if you're powergaming.

Well, there is nothing even remotely CC in troops and fast attack. There is only one unit of sisters proper that are really CC. And the CC stuff apart from conclave is going to be beaten senseless by even very soft lists. Really, repentia are that bad. Any troop choice from any codex would just beat an equal size count of repentia senseless, would it not.
The other two options are conclave and penitent engine, neither are actually sisters.
The HQ do not count as CC, or anything else than waste of point.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sisters are very good at winning games.

Are you telling me I am a terrible, terrible player?
Because I sure cannot expect to win any tournament at my FLGS, or even make it to the podium.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I find it highly unlikely, personally, that the Tau breast feed any more. Their technology is advanced enough that they probably use synthetic replacements that actually are as good as breast milk, so they can free the mothers up to go back to the front lines while the leverets are creched.

I would really expect more them not being mammals at all rather than them actually removing the breasts. They are not that much into body modifications, are they? That would be akin to removing hairs because they are not useful…

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
My take on it is that the Tau have breasts, simply because Games Workshop are all but incapable of coming up with aliens that aren't just differently-flavoured humans.

Except for tyranids. And many minor races, like grox or enslavers or catachan devils or stuff.

 Sigvatr wrote:
If you want an all-female army, all sorts of SM, Necrons, Tau, CSM, DoC, GK, Orks, Imperial Knights...basically anything but SoB and maybe Eldar are out.

Just thought I should mention you can technically have an all female Necron army.

Technically, you cannot. You can however get an army of Necron that all used to be female before their souls were transferred.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
My take on it is that the Tau have breasts, simply because Games Workshop are all but incapable of coming up with aliens that aren't just differently-flavoured humans.

Except for tyranids. And many minor races, like grox or enslavers or catachan devils or stuff.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
My take on it is that the Tau have breasts, simply because Games Workshop are all but incapable of coming up with aliens that aren't just differently-flavoured humans.

Those are also very minor, barring Tyranids. The vast majority of races that are even remotely significant in 40k are differently-flavoured humans, even Kroot. Also, I would hardly point to "generic bull-lizard" or "giant scorpion" as good examples of alien design. Enslavers aren't the most imaginative thing either, but they're cool enough (although RT-era Enslavers were gross bulbs with squid tentacles). It's okay, though. I understand why they do it. It's the same reason why almost every alien race in every sci-fi is a differently flavour of human, or why Transformers are humanoid.

EDIT: Even Tyranids aren't all that weird. Most of them only have two eyes, for example.

Yeah, I agree that aliens in 40k are not exactly very… alien. It comes from the whole “Fantasy in space” thing. But still, we can hope GW will understand that aliens are not necessarily mammals .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Technically, you cannot. You can however get an army of Necron that all used to be female before their souls were transferred.

Depends on how you would define a female I suppose. If you define it as someone who can make new a life. Then yes the necrons are not female, but the orks would most likely be considered female then along with some nids.

Orks are an asexual fungus that propagate through sporing. Gender doesn't apply.

The Tau are said to have evolved from a "plains-dwelling herbivore" (which makes no kind of sense, as the Fire Caste rose from their tribal hunting packs... unless the vegetables on Tau Prime are fething *dangerous*!). They also have hooves and, in some cases hair (Shadowsun has a feth-off huge topknot of hair). They're almost certainly mammals, possibly repto-mammalian.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
but the orks would most likely be considered female then along with some nids.

Female make no sense when there is only one gender. Orks are just… orks. Nids I do not know, maybe they have males and females, or maybe even three or more genders, and weird stuff and all.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Yeah, I agree that aliens in 40k are not exactly very… alien. It comes from the whole “Fantasy in space” thing. But still, we can hope GW will understand that aliens are not necessarily mammals .

Aliens are never mammals, by virtue of being aliens. I highly recommend you read a thread of Psienesis' that I totally hijacked on this matter, and the subsequent thread made to discuss this very topic. If you can't be bothered with all that stuff (and I don't blame you, although they are short threads!), please read this post by Senden that sums it up adequately.

Psienesis wrote:They're almost certainly mammals, possibly repto-mammalian.

Psienesis, please. Please, for my sanity, stop throwing terms like that around as if they have any meaning at all.

EDIT: I broke it. I fixed it.

EDIT2:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Female make no sense when there is only one gender.

Don't tell Simon Furman that...

umm... This convo veered to the entirely boring in a hurry!

 Jancoran wrote:
umm... This convo veered to the entirely boring in a hurry!

Another important point: humans are unique (or almost unique, there might be other examples) among mammals in that females have permanent breasts. Most mammals have very little sexual dimorphism in relation to the mammaries except when a female is actively lactating. Breasts as we know them are almost certainly a case of sexual selection, akin to bright plumage in some bird species. While they have no particular utility for survival or reproduction, they advertise fitness (look how much fat I can store!) and thus attract mates. Thus, breasts are an accident of human evolution and should have no reason to be replicated in outwardly-similar bipedal aliens.

To get back to the original topic, my Guard army is almost exactly 50% female. Of course, I use the WGF Shock Troops as my infantry models, and it's impossible to tell after you layer flak armor on top of a greatcoat. I've been playing in a campaign and I flip a coin every time I have to name a character for a battle report, since that's pretty much the only case where it's possible to tell.

Convergent evolution. Some traits are useful and prominent breasts might evolve on other mammalian bipedal races for the same reasons it was selected for us. It's why other planets most likely have similar looking trees to Earth if the conditions are similar.

If I remember correctly, the "boob" is necessary do to the shape of the human face, and allowing a child to be nursed without danger of crushing the nose (that's why gorillas lack them) And with tau having a dissimilar face structure, there females would not have them. Or Im completely wrong and my brain just made this fact up, who knows?

Actually, female chestplates don't differ from male chestplates. Boob plates are not doing any good technically, are not needed and are making the plate's protection worse.

 Bludbaff wrote:
Another important point: humans are unique (or almost unique, there might be other examples) among mammals in that females have permanent breasts. Most mammals have very little sexual dimorphism in relation to the mammaries except when a female is actively lactating. Breasts as we know them are almost certainly a case of sexual selection, akin to bright plumage in some bird species. While they have no particular utility for survival or reproduction, they advertise fitness (look how much fat I can store!) and thus attract mates. Thus, breasts are an accident of human evolution and should have no reason to be replicated in outwardly-similar bipedal aliens.

Our physiology is also unique, though. We are entirely bipedal and non-climbing. Furthermore, they become engorged during pregnancy - it doesn't make sense that a trait purely designed to attract a mate would become more "attractive" when the female is already pregnant. Also, breasts aren't held in remotely as high a regard in cultures where female toplessness is normal - in short, the sex appeal of breasts is cultural, not genetic. Also, if it were genetic, we would see permanent breasts in more of our close relatives. The reasoning that they function as fat deposits (kind of important for that whole "growing a person" magic they do) suited to our physiology would explain why men can get "moobs". Efficient weight distribution, and that. Imagine how difficult it would be for a female human to run if the equivalent mass she would have in her breasts was instead entirely in her belly or thighs. Other apes don't have this problem, because they don't move like we do.

EDIT:

 koooaei wrote:
Actually, female chestplates don't differ from male chestplates. Boob plates are not doing any good technically, are not needed and are making the plate's protection worse.

This. Have an exalt. The only case I would argue for breasts is stuff like Eldar armour, which is all-but skintight. Tau armour is far too bulky for it to matter. Imperial Guard armour is hard to judge because of the "heroic" proportions of the models. Either way, if the breasts needed more space, they would just be given more space - not armour-cups for each breast. That's just silly, and actually quite dangerous - it would transfer all force impacting the breast areas (so most of the chest) directly into the sternum. A woman in plate armour with "boob plate" could kill herself by falling forwards!

EDIT2: If only GW could do what Relic do. They even had a female Autarch, along with a host of other female characters that don't look ridiculous or get horribly butchered for being women. Adrastia is brilliant, although she does have boob plate, but I suspect this is more to be in-line with the Sisters-esque aesthetic. Her armour does seem to be leather in the artwork, but I don't remember if this is ever mentioned.

Boob plates are an old discussion. And in the end fan-service always wins against common sence. Thus we have boob plates. Well, cause people like boobs, i guess

We have square flyers with small wings even though such flyers wouldn't even lift off irl. So, why not have women in boob plates without helmets jumping out from square flyers in the thick of a fight...


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 Frozen Ocean wrote:


The only case I would argue for breasts is stuff like Eldar armour, which is all-but skintight.

Yep.

And if you look at dark eldar witches, they have suits.

Btw, i don't want to disappoint you, guyz, but female boobs are usually not that enormous and can easilly fit in any male armor without discomfort. Don't forget that before you put your armor on, you need to put under-armor first. And it flatens the body too.

Actually, female armor does differ from male armor, just not in the boob-plate kind of way. Something about male armor not fitting females as well due to different body shapes or something.

At least, that's what I heard when I read an article somewhere about how some people were glad because the US military had finally commissioned some body armor to be designed for its female troops or whatever

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually, female armor does differ from male armor, just not in the boob-plate kind of way. Something about male armor not fitting females as well due to different body shapes or something.

At least, that's what I heard when I read an article somewhere about how some people were glad because the US military had finally commissioned some body armor to be designed for its female troops or whatever

This is true, and what I meant by "more space", but in a fully-enclosed suit (like the Tau's), it's basically impossible to tell the difference.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Actually, female armor does differ from male armor, just not in the boob-plate kind of way. Something about male armor not fitting females as well due to different body shapes or something.

At least, that's what I heard when I read an article somewhere about how some people were glad because the US military had finally commissioned some body armor to be designed for its female troops or whatever

This is true, and what I meant by "more space", but in a fully-enclosed suit (like the Tau's), it's basically impossible to tell the difference.

I think it had more to do with the torso going in more at the waist, shoulders not being as wide, stuff like that, not just needing more room for the breasts, but I could be wrong. I'm neither an armor-maker nor am I a woman who wears body armor.

But yeah, helmeted Tau could be either or.

Sisters of Battle all have boobplates. Might date back to Vandire and his filth (heard something once about there being a reason he renamed them from Daughters of the Emperor to Brides of the Emperor). Though more likely it's because WH40k was more Fantasy-In-Space when the models were made, so when they wanted to have an all-female army in power armor... I guess boob plate made more sense than bra armor. Oh, they also have corsets. : /