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2014/06/25 07:19:21
Subject: Give it to me straight, what is the best codex?
I think things will change somewhat in seventh, but it's pretty clear that eldar are still top of the pile. Daemons are still a great codex, and grey knights only got better with the new edition. I just think it's a miracle eldar players ever manage to lose. That's not a comment on eldar players at all mind you, just that the eldar codex has all the best tools to do whatever you need it to.
There is no data available for 7th yet, but some things are very clear:
Jink is worse now: Eldar and Tau will be weaker than they were at the end of 6th.
AV14 is better now: SM, SMC, Necrons will be better than they were at the end of 6th.
There's also something about Psychic but you need to get those details from someone else
Lastly, I believe Astra Militarum is a force to reckon with, simply because of Creed and the BRB's Strategy Warlord Traits (I would pay 200+ points for Creed if I could).
Either way, you will not know for sure until the 7th ed dust settles, give it a few months of tournaments and it will be more or less figured out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 11:50:28
Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Eldar have been moving their skimmers every turn since 4th edition, and that gave them defense without losing anything.
Now we can choose to use that defense, still move anyway because we have to, and lose 66% of our DPS.
To avoid losing any DPS, we are now forced to seek cover like every other vehicle in 40K, thereby making Jink an anecdotal special rule where it used to be the trademark of Skimmers: having cover save in the open and thus more freedom of movement.
If you think that's better, then perhaps you also think losing is better than winning ?
Ignore morgoth please, his gimmick is going to every thread and turning it into a 4 page argument where he refuses to concede that Eldar are ridiculously OP.
Which they are. Answer to this is without a doubt Eldar. Daemons and Riptides aren't far behind though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 12:28:16
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Eldar are still the best. They don't need any allies or special formations to win.
Followed by (not in any particular order):
Necrons
Chaos Daemons
Tau
Drop pod marines
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 12:49:55
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
I borrowed my gaming buddy's Eldar for about month while he was out of town, with the intention of proving that his build had a minor discrepancy and could be slightly improved by doing it my way. I went 1 loss in 23 games. Hint: it was to Eldar.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Not sure that jink is worse, particularly for eldar. Being able to jink without having moved and getting a bette cover save is a big deal, plus so many twin linked weapons make it less of an issue. Good luck trying to kill a wave serpent at range now!
Eldar have been moving their skimmers every turn since 4th edition, and that gave them defense without losing anything.
Now we can choose to use that defense, still move anyway because we have to, and lose 66% of our DPS.
To avoid losing any DPS, we are now forced to seek cover like every other vehicle in 40K, thereby making Jink an anecdotal special rule where it used to be the trademark of Skimmers: having cover save in the open and thus more freedom of movement.
If you think that's better, then perhaps you also think losing is better than winning ?
Jink is worse, but not by much. Wave serpents Objective secured makes the wave serpents equal if not better than last edition.
I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.
It makes them way overpowered now I played a game against Serpents and literally lost on the first turn because we were playing Maelstrom and he got the Total Objectives thing and two Objectives claims. Next game didn't play Maelstrom, okay reserved come on board land on objectives objectives secured. Yay.
Cause if you blow it up you still have to kill the 5 guys in it that have that rule as well.
It's really powerful.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
I too will gladly trade jink nerf for objective secured from the perspective of an Eldar list. It's crazy how muscly Eldar really are this edition.
Anyone who would rather have the old jink over scoring + objective secured is probably a low level player. It just makes them amazing. Costs only a bit of your firepower to jink, and only one the ones that have to. Now not only can you claim an objective, you can camp it while jinking, oh and you can't be contested. On the rare situations where Eldar might be on the losing end of the points battle - They still have the very best scoring unit in the game to pull them out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/25 13:25:39
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
I will gladly trade Objective Secured for the Jink nerf, any day, every day, all day, whatever.
Because my strategy is to table you, not to contest gimmicky objectives in a ring around the rosy match.
To me, 40K is a strategy game, and these ridiculous objectives that will let a fleeing enemy win a match when being all but massacred don't make sense.
Of these armies, the Eldar were jink nerfed, the Tau were jink nerfed and lost the Buffmander, AV14 got buffed (SM,Necron), and some other changes I'll let players of the respective armies comment on.
Statistics will surely speak again, but right now there is no reason to believe Eldar will be in the lead.
Keep in mind that most of the players citing Eldar as strongest are playing some of the weaker codexes which do take a pounding from Eldar more than from other leading codexes.
This of course has no bearing on Tournaments where mostly top 5 codexes compete.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/25 14:07:19
Codex Imperium is the best. I'm not sure there are any valid arguments against it.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
DarknessEternal wrote: Codex Imperium is the best. I'm not sure there are any valid arguments against it.
there is a valid argument, codex eldar. i don't think they have any glaring weaknesses. they're very powerful, plain old eldar power.
i play demons, and really enjoy them. they're a very good codex, no complaints from them at all.
i think tau and necrons are similarly powerful, all of the above are good books. all four compete against each other well and should make for good games, with eldar having a slight advantage.
6th Edition is gone. The power armies and builds of 6th are either going to disappear or be radically altered with the current exception of the SeerStar and Beast Stars, they'll hold out as vialbe if not good until a new DE dex hits.
In 6th it was Eldar, Tau, Daemons, Necron, and Space Marines. We never got to see how Astra Millitarium would have truly done in 6th.
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
I would rank 7th in three loose tiers. Without any major tournaments to give us data we can't be sure, and will know a lot more after BAO in July and the NOVA in August. Orks will depend on what we see once everyone has the dex, people get over the initial shock/disappointment, and start pulling out the better lists. I'm currently leaning for Orks as Teir 3, but they might surprise us, Ere We Go and lots of Waaagh may really surprise us.
Tier 1: Eldar, Space Marine(Imperium), Necron
Tier 2: Tau, Daemons, Astra Millitarium(Imperium), Orks?
Tier 3: Orks?, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, CSM
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 15:39:22
The top 3 Codexes are definitely Eldar, Daemons and Tau, in that order.
That said, the army that is getting the most love at my FLGS is Tyranids. There are some very inventive builds out there that are effective against these top tier armies.
You will be fine with any of those codices. If I personally was starting out I would buy a small eldar army and wait for dark eldar to be released as I only see eldar getting stronger.
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
1. Beast Star isn't Eldar and it wasn't that great anyway. Stars in general did not benefit from 7th, whereas everything troops related, and vehicles did.
2. SeerStar has lost some firepower due to Witchfire changes, it thus has less DPS which it didn't have too much of to begin with.
3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.
4. Tau without O'vesa star or Buffmander will drop a lot in power.
5. SM and Necrons got huge buffs with 7th and no drawbacks.
Since Necron,SM,Tau,Daemons,Eldar were in the same bracket, it's likely that the next statistics will show this:
1. Necron
2. SM 3. Eldar
4. Tau
5. Daemons
Unless of course codex: Ork kicks ass, which is still likely.
To be expected:
A lot of AV14 spam, which will make Necron even stronger.
Psychic moving back to buff / malediction mostly (if it ever moved from there).
A renewed interest in Assault due to its cheaper vehicle bashing capabilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/25 16:14:58
Eldar will likely remain the most powerful army, Seerstar, Beast Star, Wave Serpent Spam, EJB Spam are all still viable and good. Wave Serpents lost some offensive potential for Objective Secured and Jink all day everyday which is a net gain in 7th. Eldar did lose Tau Battle Brothers which did hurt them.
Tau took some major hits. Riptides lost their Psychic buffing and their Buffmander. O'VesaStar is illegal. 7th Edition play emphasizes their weak and slow Objective Secured Units. Gunlines won't cut it in 7th. That being said, their vehicles got a buff in resiliance and Devilfish are now a decent Objective Secured Transport. Overall Tau will still be good, but they will fall a couple of notches. Tau lost Eldar Battle Brother which hurt them.
Daemons took some hits, FMCs are less dangerous, Psychic phase is an overall nerf, although with access to Daemonology they have the potential to summon more Dameons, but reliance on this tactic is going to prove mediocre at best. Belekor, access to Cursed Earth help but overall Daemons will be knocked down a notch.
Necron got everything and then some in 7th Edition. Armor got stronger, Tesla really doesn't care about Jinking, the CCB is ridiculously good(even without controversial joining of squads or Phaseshifter 3++). Night Scythes are still one of the best options for grabbing Objectives around and they are even more durable. Overall AV13 Spam got much better, and they gained the CCB Lord and Ghost Arcs as viable choices for AV13Spam. Necron will be even more of a force competitively than they were in 6th. Tesla still kills everything short of AV14 with impunity, their Tesla platforms got tougher. Necrons are loving 7th.
Space Marines gained alot with 7th. They have the most numerous Objective Secured units in the game and they gained Battle Brothers with the entire Imperium. This is phenomenally powerful. For 1050pts base they can drop 18 Objective Secured units on the board. That alone can win games. Losing access to the Tau BuffCommander Hurt, but with the whole Imperium at their fingertips they have more than made up for it.
1. Beast Star isn't Eldar and it wasn't that great anyway. Stars in general did not benefit from 7th, whereas everything troops related, and vehicles did.
2. SeerStar has lost some firepower due to Witchfire changes, it thus has less DPS which it didn't have too much of to begin with.
3. The Jink nerf is huge. For the same protection as in v6, a player has to decide to lose 66% of his firepower for the next turn instead of moving which he was going to do anyway.
4. Tau without O'vesa star or Buffmander will drop a lot in power.
5. SM and Necrons got huge buffs with 7th and no drawbacks.
Since Necron,SM,Tau,Daemons,Eldar were in the same bracket, it's likely that the next statistics will show this:
1. Necron
2. SM 3. Eldar
4. Tau
5. Daemons
Unless of course codex: Ork kicks ass, which is still likely.
To be expected:
A lot of AV14 spam, which will make Necron even stronger.
Psychic moving back to buff / malediction mostly (if it ever moved from there).
A renewed interest in Assault due to its cheaper vehicle bashing capabilities.
1. BeastStar is most definitely Eldar, the best way to run it was 2x Farseer with allied Baron and Beast Pack. DE primary was significantly weaker than eldar primary. Even SeerStar allies DE for the Baron. Highly Mobile Stars still have merit, they just don't win games by them selves anymore.
2. SeerStar is still most definitely alive and well. It wasn't about firepower or Witchfires, it was about being highly mobile, fearlless, nigh indestructable, and multisassaulting units with Hit and Run. It won't be the top list anymore, but it will still be viable.
3. Not quite true. In 6th you didn't get to Jink T1, 7th has buffed T1 Wave Serpent Survivability. In 6th, moving with Holofields gave you a 4+, now Jinking gives a 3+ with Holofields. a 4+ can also be achieve by normal LOS Cover and doesn't make Jink mandatory. If fact shifting behinds a ruins is an easy 3+ Cover with Holofields, and as the Serpent Shield Ignores cover is virtually to no detriment with the caveat being the Scatter and possibly Shuriken granting cover saves. That is if you don't grant yourself cover without obscuring your TLSL.
4. I believe this is exactly what I said.
5. Mostly true and almost exactly what I said.
Your order aligns almost perfectly with mine, where is the disagreement?
AV14 Spam will be in some niche builds, I doubt it will be widespread. Objective Secured AV14 for BA and Inquisition can be build around and is vaible. AV14 prominece actually hurts Necrons as the only thing they have to affect is is Guass on their Warriors which requires risking their OS Scoring as good Necron lists are Tesla. We won't see a return of the Monolith.
Psychic never left Buffing, Maledictions even in 6th weren't a mainstay for most lists. Now Psychic Buffing is still king, Invisibility, Fortune, Precience, Guide, Shrouding, Fortune, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, etc. Conjuration also has its uses and is definitely a tactic, maybe not something to build a list on, but can definitely aid lists in certain situations.
Vehicles got tougher, we won't see a shift back to assault for the meta. Although, Orks will likely bring a new assault element, but that is yet to be seen if it will be a competitive tactic.
Best lord of war - Eldar
Mobile Objective Secured spam - Eldar
Durable Vehicle spam (largely with objective secured to boot) - Eldar
Firepower - Eldar (this one isn't even close for other codexs)
Psychic defense - Eldar
Best Deathstars - Eldar
Flyer spam - Necrons
Most expensive Troops with least amount of firepower : Imperial
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