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As a Transport, they undoubtedly got better because a 4+ Jink is safer than a 5+ Jink.

For 145 points with the standard loadout though, the Wave Serpent is one expensive non-Assault Transport, and unless it has something awesome inside... meh.

As a Gunboat, they undoubtedly got nerfed hard: the new Jink can barely be used unless there's only one of your WS visible or it's clearly getting drop-pod-fusioned, and their mobility is restricted because real cover is now a lot better than Jink, even more so with Conqueror of Cities or Night Fighting (2+ cover with Holofields is godlike).

Objective Secured is something every army has, and for the price of a WS there could be 4 Rhinos with the rule on the same objective... not really an advantage to the WS is it ?

In the current MSU meta, 2+ Rhinos for each WS are very likely, so I guess the WS doesn't benefit more than others from this rule and is unlikely to Tank Shock anything out of the objectives.

Verdict: worse.
Much worse as a gunboat, better than ever as a Transport, still 145 points.


Informed opinions welcome.

If we're looking at DPS, it got worse. If we're looking at the actual usefulness on the table it got undeniably better.

A slight change of pace for Serpent spammers, but all in all, it's still the best vehicle (points cost vs usefulness ratio) in 40k.

Would you care to elaborate ? What in your opinion balances the DPS loss that does not also benefits all other vehicles in the same category ?

Comparing it to Rhinos is not good, as a 12/12/10 fast skimmer with 3 weapons to a 11/11/10 tank with a bolter doesn't really work. Getting a Rhino off an objective is far easier than a WS. And it can jet across the table to get there faster, too.

The Chimera is closer, with 12/10/10 and 3-ish weapons is closer, and costs 1/2 that of the WS.

WS do handle differently now, and are very good as a transport. Massive speed, jink saves, and ignore terrain. Only 1 access port, though, the same as a Chimera.
As gunboats, they're less-so, but as one of the best beforehand, they're still very good. A choice of TL turret, a shuri-gun and the ignore-cover shield. No fire-ports though.

The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

Better! Lol.

Well, there is a tradeoff. It was more killy in the 6th ed, but its more survivable (from shooting) in the 7th ed.

As a pure Gunboat, the Wave Serpent is worse, yet more survivable.

As a transport and in Objective missions, it is significantly better. Its the best Objective Secured Transport in the game and is still a good Gunboat.

 Zagman wrote:
As a pure Gunboat, the Wave Serpent is worse, yet more survivable.
As a transport and in Objective missions, it is significantly better. Its the best Objective Secured Transport in the game and is still a good Gunboat.

It's either a far worse damage output more survivable Gunboat
OR
The same damage output (not better) much less survivable and mobile Gunboat.

It's not worse yet more survivable.
As a transport however, it's more survivable than before.


Objective Secured is bs, every transport gets it.
The previous best transport, Land Raider, is now the best Objective Secured Transport and the previous most mobile transport, Wave Serpent, is now the best Objective Secured Mobile Transport.
WOOP DEE fething DOO, that did change a lot to the game didn't it...

Stop touting that as if it were in any way comparable to the clear loss in efficiency of the Wave Serpent as a gunboat, which was its PRIMARY role in any Eldar army for all of 6th edition, and the PRIMARY reason anyone was whining about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

Realistically, we're talking about 2 Rhinos with marines in them, vs 1 Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons in them.. if they were to meet on an objective, the Marines would win every time. S4 AV10 gg. not like the Eldar troops stand a chance in close combat either.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

I couldn't elaborate earlier because I was out, but this is exactly my reasoning. Pretty much to the letter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
Realistically, we're talking about 2 Rhinos with marines in them, vs 1 Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons in them.. if they were to meet on an objective, the Marines would win every time. S4 AV10 gg. not like the Eldar troops stand a chance in close combat either.

Thing is, both of those Rhinos are dead Turn 2 against any decent Eldar list, especially Serpent spam, so that won't ever happen unless you let it happen.

morgoth wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
As a pure Gunboat, the Wave Serpent is worse, yet more survivable.
As a transport and in Objective missions, it is significantly better. Its the best Objective Secured Transport in the game and is still a good Gunboat.

It's either a far worse damage output more survivable Gunboat
OR
The same damage output (not better) much less survivable and mobile Gunboat.

It's not worse yet more survivable.
As a transport however, it's more survivable than before.


Objective Secured is bs, every transport gets it.
The previous best transport, Land Raider, is now the best Objective Secured Transport and the previous most mobile transport, Wave Serpent, is now the best Objective Secured Mobile Transport.
WOOP DEE fething DOO, that did change a lot to the game didn't it...

Stop touting that as if it were in any way comparable to the clear loss in efficiency of the Wave Serpent as a gunboat, which was its PRIMARY role in any Eldar army for all of 6th edition, and the PRIMARY reason anyone was whining about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

Realistically, we're talking about 2 Rhinos with marines in them, vs 1 Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons in them.. if they were to meet on an objective, the Marines would win every time. S4 AV10 gg. not like the Eldar troops stand a chance in close combat either.

And how many armies have access to Objective Secured Land Raiders? Not many, those that do are generally much lower powered codices whereas Eldar have access to the best Transport in the game, which just so happens to be one of the best Tanks in the game in addition to EJBs, Wraithknights, Farseers, Warlocks, Warp Spiders, etc. Eldar have an immensely powerful and flexible codex. Whereas say BA have Objective Secured Land Raiders and little else. Also "Best Transport" can mean different things, in 6th at 250 base a Land Raider was not the best transport. That was the 120-145pt Wave Serpent.


Yes, more survivable, Jinking makes them more survivable. The changes to the Vehicle Damage Chart makes them more survivable. Being able to Jink 1st Turn makes them more survivable. As a Gunboat it is only worse as a Gunboat while Jinking, but the option to Jink makes it more survivable. 3+Cover>4+Cover. When not Jinking, Wave Serpents can easily still gain 4+ Holofield Cover or even 3+ utilizing Ruin Saves which when coupled with their Ignore Cover Serpent shield and Vehicle Damage table means they are more resilient and maintain a high level of damage output. You cannot dispute any of these as they are fact.

And why are we measuring damage output in DPS, if you are interested in increasing DPS I'd just play faster. Roll the dice real fast, and streamline your shooting phase, should increase DPS. How about DPT or DPSP or just Damage Ouput.

Yes, all dedicated Transports for Troops gain access to Objective Secured. Name any that are as resilitent, as mobile, as points efficient, and located in a codex with as powerful of options. You can't, because Wave Serpents are in a league of their own.

Yes, there was a loss of efficiency of the Wave Serpent as a Gunboat, which was its primary role in 6th. It is still a very Good Gunboat, one of the best in the game. What it is in 7th, is the single best Objective Secured Transport in the game in terms of Damage output, Survivability, mobility, and points efficiency.

You cannot look at one aspect, which was more important in 6th Edition, and claim Wave Serpents are worse. They are only worse in one way, you cannot ignore the huge boons they've recieved in other aspects, aspects which are more important in 7th Edition.


I like how when you compare two Rhinos on a objective with say 10 tacital marines, minimum of 210 pts against a lower costed DAVA that you completely neglect to mention that the Wave Serpent will have blown up both Rhinos before they got to the Objective, and the Dire Avengers get to pump out 20 Rending Shots and can mow Marines down. We can simulate your scenario, start each 12" away from an objective and see which army can hold and take the Objective over the course of a game. My money is on the Wave Serpent every single time.

One dimensional flawed logical arguments are gaining you no ground.

When you have an argument that could make the v7 WS better than the v6 WS, I'll bother.

Right now you have nothing but your envy for Codex Eldar, which is so insanely powerful it was tied with the other top 5 codexes in v6.

The Wave Serpent gained nothing in v7, again every other transport got Objective Secured.

That changes nothing at all about the WS except that in your head, the current meta means best OS Transport = god.

I like that your Dire Avengers get 4 shots each, I think I'll upgrade mine to that too.. 2 is really too little.

In your world, WS never have to Jink but always have 3+ save, every other Transport is not allowed to use cover, DA are best troops in the universe, etc..

In reality, WS have exactly the same access to cover as other transports, Jinking makes them cost prohibitive and DA would love to be Tactical Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Araenion wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

I couldn't elaborate earlier because I was out, but this is exactly my reasoning. Pretty much to the letter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
Realistically, we're talking about 2 Rhinos with marines in them, vs 1 Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons in them.. if they were to meet on an objective, the Marines would win every time. S4 AV10 gg. not like the Eldar troops stand a chance in close combat either.

Thing is, both of those Rhinos are dead Turn 2 against any decent Eldar list, especially Serpent spam, so that won't ever happen unless you let it happen.

Clearly two Rhinos do not stand a chance against a whole army.

morgoth wrote:
When you have an argument that could make the v7 WS better than the v6 WS, I'll bother.

Right now you have nothing but your envy for Codex Eldar, which is so insanely powerful it was tied with the other top 5 codexes in v6.

The Wave Serpent gained nothing in v7, again every other transport got Objective Secured.

That changes nothing at all about the WS except that in your head, the current meta means best OS Transport = god.

I like that your Dire Avengers get 4 shots each, I think I'll upgrade mine to that too.. 2 is really too little.

In your world, WS never have to Jink but always have 3+ save, every other Transport is not allowed to use cover, DA are best troops in the universe, etc..

In reality, WS have exactly the same access to cover as other transports, Jinking makes them cost prohibitive and DA would love to be Tactical Marines.

I have given you a strong argument, you are the one who is supplying such a weak one dimensional argument and hand waving opposing arguments aside.

My envy for Codex Eldar. I guess I'm envious of my own army then, odd how that works.

Obviously I hit a "2" on the keyboard, not the "1" I intended.

When have I said WSs never have to Jink? You are the one basing arguments around the faulty assumption they have to Jink continuously, which they don't, and the more durable Vehicle Damage Table means they can risk a bit more. I know so far I have not needed to Jink my Wave Serpents that much, and won every game I've put them on the table for. Yes, other's transports have access to cover, too bad the Wave Serpent didn't have access to any king of good AT weapon that ignores cover. Man, it'd be sweet if it had a long rage too... and was twinlinked! So, say a 60" S7 D6+1 Shot Twinlinked Weapon that Ignored Cover would be great. Hmm, I guess one of us forgot they do have access to that weapon.

No, in reality WSs have greater assess to cover. That is an inherent advantage of their increased maneuverability. And they have Holofields, meaning so long as they move they still have a 6+ cover save and all other cover is increased by one. Hey, imperial vehicles get access to a one turn Jink called Smoke, except it doesn't allow them to shoot at all. And Tactical Marines would love to have Rending Assault weapons that they can fire before or after they run(with a reroll). Wow, just wow....

Whatever cover other transports have, serpents have one better.

Avengers Butcher marines in a shootout.

Scenarios in which 7th serpents are better than 6th:

Turn one, enemy has first turn. You can now jink their shooting.

Serpent is acting as transport, caught in the open. Better jink.

Serpent is a gunboat, fired serpent shield, and is within range for retaliatory fire. Better jink.

Serpent received crew stunned or shaken result. Would be snap firing anyway, better jink.

 Zagman wrote:
Yes, other's transports have access to cover, too bad the Wave Serpent didn't have access to any king of good AT weapon that ignores cover. Man, it'd be sweet if it had a long rage too... and was twinlinked! So, say a 60" S7 D6+1 Shot Twinlinked Weapon that Ignored Cover would be great. Hmm, I guess one of us forgot they do have access to that weapon.

1. The Serpent Shield is not a good AT weapon, it can do interesting stuff but it's not a good AT weapon because it lacks AP and a chance to hurt AV14
2. It's not Twinlinked unless you're within 36", so its 60" range does not combine with the Twin-linked.
3. If you do play Eldar and have not noticed a serious drop in the capabilities of the WS, you're not playing WS or you never took advantage of the old jink.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Whatever cover other transports have, serpents have one better.
Avengers Butcher marines in a shootout.
Scenarios in which 7th serpents are better than 6th:
Turn one, enemy has first turn. You can now jink their shooting.
Serpent is acting as transport, caught in the open. Better jink.
Serpent is a gunboat, fired serpent shield, and is within range for retaliatory fire. Better jink.
Serpent received crew stunned or shaken result. Would be snap firing anyway, better jink.

1. DA are not anywhere close to Marines. They are shooters, and within 12-18" they will beat marines at shooting.
2. First turn Jinking, protects the one or two WS which were in LoS, good stuff, still going to cost you 66% of your DPS on two of your gunboats, but hey.. it might be worth it. Unless they start switching targets a lot. Maybe it's not as good as you thought.
3. As a Transport, it's undeniably better. +1 to a save when all you want to do is survive is clearly a good thing.
4. Yes, because of course all the enemies are dead now, so you can Jink, rest and leave the rest to your friends... WHAT ? the enemy is shooting at your friends because you Jinked ? Now we have 4 WS jinked and most of the S6-7 shooting gone ? /.... nope, didn't think so.
5. Definitely, if you're already Snap Firing, which is in 33% of Penetrations AP2, 16% AP1 or even 50% AP3+, might as well take another 4+ save... except you should have taken it before since you just got hit. meh.

morgoth wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The only different for Serpents now is they aren't point and click anymore. Their only downside is if you don't want to have to Jink you need to give some thought to using terrain to give them cover. On the upside, they are no longer screwed if not going first, are harder to Immobolize, and bigger still, harder to Explode (which the guys inside will be greatful for). The big decider here is that in the game of MSU OS units and their tanks, Serpents can take out those 4 Rhinos through the course of the game while still sitting on an objective; the Rhinos can't say the same.

Realistically, we're talking about 2 Rhinos with marines in them, vs 1 Wave Serpent with Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons in them.. if they were to meet on an objective, the Marines would win every time. S4 AV10 gg. not like the Eldar troops stand a chance in close combat either.

Here's the issue; realistically they aren't going to meet on an objective. Eldar are faster, Rhinos shouldn't be just waltzing across the battlefield under Eldar firepower, and a decent Eldar play won't drive their Serpent up to two Rhinos full of Marines like a moron.

Also some of your earlier argument seem to suggest that you are ignoring the difference in missions from 6th to 7th. Your claim that the Serpent's main role is as a gun boat was true in 6th but not necessarily in 7th. It is a different game now so you need to treat things differently.

morgoth wrote:
3. If you do play Eldar and have not noticed a serious drop in the capabilities of the WS, you're not playing WS or you never took advantage of the old jink.

Furthermore, making comments like this look very arrogant and is a detriment to your argument. Maybe next time when almost the whole thread is disagreeing with you, basically accusing them all of playing Eldar wrong is probably not the best way to win them over. Just something to think about. And if this isn't what you meant, then fair enough, ignore this, but it certainly comes off that way.

1 is exactly as I said.

2 - Dead serpents put out 0 damage. Snap firing serpents do. If jink saved two serpents, that's good, no matter how much you downplay it.

3 - We agree.

4 - They're not dead, that's why you're jinking in the first place. That's the point. You're susceptible to pens because the shield is down. Again, dead serpents do no damage. I'd rather have one alive and snap firing.

5 - Don't jink every shot. That's the mindless play style of a 6th serpent. You're 12 on front and side and with the shield up negate 5 of 6 pens. Take and glance or two and shoot anyway.

morgoth wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Yes, other's transports have access to cover, too bad the Wave Serpent didn't have access to any king of good AT weapon that ignores cover. Man, it'd be sweet if it had a long rage too... and was twinlinked! So, say a 60" S7 D6+1 Shot Twinlinked Weapon that Ignored Cover would be great. Hmm, I guess one of us forgot they do have access to that weapon.

1. The Serpent Shield is not a good AT weapon, it can do interesting stuff but it's not a good AT weapon because it lacks AP and a chance to hurt AV14
2. It's not Twinlinked unless you're within 36", so its 60" range does not combine with the Twin-linked.
3. If you do play Eldar and have not noticed a serious drop in the capabilities of the WS, you're not playing WS or you never took advantage of the old jink.

I like how you ignore the majority of what people say and only address certain aspects.

1. I'm sorry, because it lacks AP1/2 and is only S7 its not a good AT weapon. Tell that to Tau, or anyone else that has a high volume of S6-8 AP3+ AT weapons that demonstratively work extremely well against the majority of AV targets. Please, start up a thread titled "S7 AP3+ isn't effective AT" and we'll see how that goes. The vast majority of vehicles in the game are AV10-12. There are definitely some AV13s, some even flammable as well, and relatively few AV14s. Your argument has no merit.

2. Yes, because 36" is such a limited range, only a 2/3 chance of hitting vs 8/9 or a 1/4 relative reduction vs Twinlinked. Obviously that makes my argument invalid, how could I have been so foolish. /Sarcasm

3. Or maybe I use my Waveserpents as hybrid Gunship/Transports and have reaped the benefit of their 7th Edition boons while mitigating any potential losses through utilizing cover and efficient decision making. Obviously, since I don't agree with you I must either be a liar and not use WSs, or I'm a bad player. Guess, its a good thing I'm preferring my Tau for GTs right now anyway, because I obviously couldn't play Eldar in 6th and Wave Serpents are bad in 7th. /Sarcasm


So, when are you going to grace us with your well constructed and substantiated argument for Wave Serpents being worse in 7th edition? So far the only thing you've done is prove that they are a worse Gunboat in 7th for Damage Output.

Shouldn't this thread have a poll? I vote better.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Whatever cover other transports have, serpents have one better. - Other transports ARE better cover than the serpent, you can hide an entire 5 man Tac squad out of LOS behind a Rhino chassis... the same cannot be said with a wave serpent

Avengers Butcher marines in a shootout. - But don't have options like SM's do (like Krak Grenades, Melta Guns, Etc)

Scenarios in which 7th serpents are better than 6th: - No Argument here... Serpents are GREAT at getting on an objective... Staying there if the game doesn't end... well...

Turn one, enemy has first turn. You can now jink their shooting. - And there was much rejoicing, of course it won't be shooting at you its next turn effectively either

Serpent is acting as transport, caught in the open. Better jink. - What exactly is a Serpent transporting that you fear so much? Fire Dragons? Realistically, how often do you see them played? Dire Avengers? Are you really afraid of a 5 man DA squad?

Serpent is a gunboat, fired serpent shield, and is within range for retaliatory fire. Better jink. - Order of operations... this is the same as it was except that you now KNOW you have effectively shaken the Serpent even if you did nothing to it. How do you think Eldar lost in the days of the invulnerable Falcon in 4th? You Stun locked it, just like now.

Serpent received crew stunned or shaken result. Would be snap firing anyway, better jink. - No change from 6th as they would just go flat out for the exact same save

*********************************************************

Something I would like clarified as well... do you have to declare you are jinking before or after a unit that has successfully split fired declares who in the unit is going to be firing?

Oh boy. And entire five tactical marines. Better sound the emergency alarm, they might kill five guardsmen. Not even the point I was making, of course, since I was talking about cover saves for a serpent not cover it provides to its cargo when they disembark.

Avengers are also cheaper than marines, can take a better transport, and kill infantry better. They can even kill mcs better with shooting.

Refer to prior response concerning first turn jink. Dead serpents, 0 damage. Jink serpents, some damage.

How about ten avengers? Fire dragons? Wraith guard? Foot council? Serpents are good, the rest of the army coincidentally also is.

Pens don't only cause shaken results. A shield less serpent is susceptible to losing guns, being immobilized, or outright exploding.

Refer to stunned result, then tell me how it's going flat out. Unsure if flat out still boosts cover for skimmers, but if so, then even that is still better.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Here's the issue; realistically they aren't going to meet on an objective. Eldar are faster, Rhinos shouldn't be just waltzing across the battlefield under Eldar firepower, and a decent Eldar play won't drive their Serpent up to two Rhinos full of Marines like a moron.

Also some of your earlier argument seem to suggest that you are ignoring the difference in missions from 6th to 7th. Your claim that the Serpent's main role is as a gun boat was true in 6th but not necessarily in 7th. It is a different game now so you need to treat things differently.

morgoth wrote:
3. If you do play Eldar and have not noticed a serious drop in the capabilities of the WS, you're not playing WS or you never took advantage of the old jink.

Furthermore, making comments like this look very arrogant and is a detriment to your argument. Maybe next time when almost the whole thread is disagreeing with you, basically accusing them all of playing Eldar wrong is probably not the best way to win them over. Just something to think about. And if this isn't what you meant, then fair enough, ignore this, but it certainly comes off that way.

Realistically the table is 48" wide and your Rhinos are in the middle of the table in one single turn.
The awesome insane speed of the WS is not going to make a lot of difference there is it ?

If some Eldar players have personal evidence that contradicts what is logically derived from statistics and the BRB, I think they should consider reading said BRB and stop posting until they have a bit of logic to back up their anecdotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
1 is exactly as I said.

2 - Dead serpents put out 0 damage. Snap firing serpents do. If jink saved two serpents, that's good, no matter how much you downplay it.

3 - We agree.

4 - They're not dead, that's why you're jinking in the first place. That's the point. You're susceptible to pens because the shield is down. Again, dead serpents do no damage. I'd rather have one alive and snap firing.

5 - Don't jink every shot. That's the mindless play style of a 6th serpent. You're 12 on front and side and with the shield up negate 5 of 6 pens. Take and glance or two and shoot anyway.

Go check the thread about Jink nerf in 7th edition, you're missing some details that would change your perception drastically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

1. I'm sorry, because it lacks AP1/2 and is only S7 its not a good AT weapon. Tell that to Tau, or anyone else that has a high volume of S6-8 AP3+ AT weapons that demonstratively work extremely well against the majority of AV targets. Please, start up a thread titled "S7 AP3+ isn't effective AT" and we'll see how that goes. The vast majority of vehicles in the game are AV10-12. There are definitely some AV13s, some even flammable as well, and relatively few AV14s. Your argument has no merit.
2. Yes, because 36" is such a limited range, only a 2/3 chance of hitting vs 8/9 or a 1/4 relative reduction vs Twinlinked. Obviously that makes my argument invalid, how could I have been so foolish. /Sarcasm
3. Or maybe I use my Waveserpents as hybrid Gunship/Transports and have reaped the benefit of their 7th Edition boons while mitigating any potential losses through utilizing cover and efficient decision making. Obviously, since I don't agree with you I must either be a liar and not use WSs, or I'm a bad player. Guess, its a good thing I'm preferring my Tau for GTs right now anyway, because I obviously couldn't play Eldar in 6th and Wave Serpents are bad in 7th. /Sarcasm

1. Melta, Haywire, AP1 are decent AT weapons, the rest is usable against fake armor like AV12- and is more saturation / multitool than AT really.
2. Because you stated the 60" range of the Wave Serpent shield like all the Eldar OP / WS OP trolls. You brought that argument in a thread where it doesn't even belong.
3. Maybe your experience is not enough to contradict statistics and logic and maybe you need a real argument to join this discussion rather than a hypothetical :"I'm good and I think they're better".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Oh boy. And entire five tactical marines. Better sound the emergency alarm, they might kill five guardsmen. Not even the point I was making, of course, since I was talking about cover saves for a serpent not cover it provides to its cargo when they disembark.

Avengers are also cheaper than marines, can take a better transport, and kill infantry better. They can even kill mcs better with shooting.

Refer to prior response concerning first turn jink. Dead serpents, 0 damage. Jink serpents, some damage.

How about ten avengers? Fire dragons? Wraith guard? Foot council? Serpents are good, the rest of the army coincidentally also is.

Pens don't only cause shaken results. A shield less serpent is susceptible to losing guns, being immobilized, or outright exploding.

Refer to stunned result, then tell me how it's going flat out. Unsure if flat out still boosts cover for skimmers, but if so, then even that is still better.

Go read the Jink thread. You do not seem to understand how the Jink changes will affect the game.

wtnind wrote:
Shouldn't this thread have a poll? I vote better.

No, he is not interested in anyone's opinion.
He wants to spam threads screaming that Wave Serpents are ruined now and loves to aggressively attack anyone that disagrees.

PS. Better.

The serpent has made a lateral move but now if your foe bring many at sources with good range their in some trouble. Having a 60" range is sweet and all but they need to get into the fight and expose themselves and at some point the foe will come to you.

If they have enough AT they can force your hand into wasting the jink or into just the act of jinking to nerf the shiel and if you've already wasted it well I guess Your serpent is in a lotta trouble should a pen occur.

Even if a foe can keep you throwing your jink it will dramatically reduce your firepower.

The above being said it's still broken as all Hades and I hope that when 7th edition codecies drop eldar get nerfed via satellite

I think If you are a smart player and bring a basic aegis line and deploy smartly you can use them as gun boats all day long. Asumming there is no ignores cover and you have holo fields for a standard 3+. The shield is awesome because the hull only needs to peek around a corner to fire. Over all i dont think they got better or worse.

This is my vote

morgoth wrote:
Realistically the table is 48" wide and your Rhinos are in the middle of the table in one single turn.
The awesome insane speed of the WS is not going to make a lot of difference there is it ?

If some Eldar players have personal evidence that contradicts what is logically derived from statistics and the BRB, I think they should consider reading said BRB and stop posting until they have a bit of logic to back up their anecdotes.

Realistically every deployment situation doesn't result in a Rhino sitting directly in front of a center table objective. In fact assuming you deploy your Rhinos in cover it would be quite common for you to not be able to make a straight dash at an objective in favor of survival. Also, way to only respond to only part of what I said; it's not like you've been called out on that already where's your rebuttle to how your Rhinos get popped by Serpents for instance? In fact you quoted my entire post and then only responded to a single line of it.

As for the second part of your above, well done again on stating your superiority over everybody.

Ironically, you have provided no evidence at all in this thread, not even anecdotal evidence not to mind anything more substantial. You are claiming people are using anecdotes to counter your statistics, but tell me, where are your statistics? Seriously, this has been your sole argument yet you are looking for statistical analyses. What makes you think you have the right to demand statistics from anyone when you are posted nothing but blanket statements and insults? You have made this thread beyond a joke. Simply put, if you want people to stop posting until they have statistical analyses, then I say, 'you first'.

But as Kangodo said above, you really aren't interested in people's opinions are you? You just desparately want somebody to agree, and as he correctly stated, have been attacking anyone that doesn't, which so far is everybody.

Seriously mate, don't trust in Cillit Bang ads so much; in reality just because you shout something at people enough doesn't mean they will buy it. Drop the irony and drop the constant snark, and then you might stand a chance here.

 CorpseCommander wrote:
I think If you are a smart player and bring a basic aegis line and deploy smartly you can use them as gun boats all day long. Asumming there is no ignores cover and you have holo fields for a standard 3+. The shield is awesome because the hull only needs to peek around a corner to fire. Over all i dont think they got better or worse.

This is my vote

Nice idea, except the only time the WS is a good gunboat is when it can also hit with the TLSL or even the Shuriken Cannon.

As "just a gunboat" for 210 points, locked behind an Aegis line and vulnerable to DS / other reserve shenanigans, I don't think it can be considered "as good" as the previous edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Realistically the table is 48" wide and your Rhinos are in the middle of the table in one single turn.
The awesome insane speed of the WS is not going to make a lot of difference there is it ?

If some Eldar players have personal evidence that contradicts what is logically derived from statistics and the BRB, I think they should consider reading said BRB and stop posting until they have a bit of logic to back up their anecdotes.

Realistically every deployment situation doesn't result in a Rhino sitting directly in front of a center table objective. In fact assuming you deploy your Rhinos in cover it would be quite common for you to not be able to make a straight dash at an objective in favor of survival. Also, way to only respond to only part of what I said; it's not like you've been called out on that already where's your rebuttle to how your Rhinos get popped by Serpents for instance? In fact you quoted my entire post and then only responded to a single line of it.

As for the second part of your above, well done again on stating your superiority over everybody.

Ironically, you have provided no evidence at all in this thread, not even anecdotal evidence not to mind anything more substantial. You are claiming people are using anecdotes to counter your statistics, but tell me, where are your statistics? Seriously, this has been your sole argument yet you are looking for statistical analyses. What makes you think you have the right to demand statistics from anyone when you are posted nothing but blanket statements and insults? You have made this thread beyond a joke. Simply put, if you want people to stop posting until they have statistical analyses, then I say, 'you first'.

But as Kangodo said above, you really aren't interested in people's opinions are you? You just desparately want somebody to agree, and as he correctly stated, have been attacking anyone that doesn't, which so far is everybody.

Seriously mate, don't trust in Cillit Bang ads so much; in reality just because you shout something at people enough doesn't mean they will buy it. Drop the irony and drop the constant snark, and then you might stand a chance here.

The whole Rhino argument is a straw man anyway, it doesn't make any sense.

The only superiority I claim is that of a logical argumentation based on facts, which I haven't seen anyone on the other side of the debate provide.

I have the only statistics available for v6 (http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos) and I have the BRB.

I'm interested in people's informed and argumented conclusions, not their baseless assumptions.

I really appreciate when others agree, but I'm mostly doing this because I believe this forum should have a bit more than just "Eldar OP WS OP" as information for players trying to learn about Eldar.

morgoth wrote:
[

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

1. I'm sorry, because it lacks AP1/2 and is only S7 its not a good AT weapon. Tell that to Tau, or anyone else that has a high volume of S6-8 AP3+ AT weapons that demonstratively work extremely well against the majority of AV targets. Please, start up a thread titled "S7 AP3+ isn't effective AT" and we'll see how that goes. The vast majority of vehicles in the game are AV10-12. There are definitely some AV13s, some even flammable as well, and relatively few AV14s. Your argument has no merit.
2. Yes, because 36" is such a limited range, only a 2/3 chance of hitting vs 8/9 or a 1/4 relative reduction vs Twinlinked. Obviously that makes my argument invalid, how could I have been so foolish. /Sarcasm
3. Or maybe I use my Waveserpents as hybrid Gunship/Transports and have reaped the benefit of their 7th Edition boons while mitigating any potential losses through utilizing cover and efficient decision making. Obviously, since I don't agree with you I must either be a liar and not use WSs, or I'm a bad player. Guess, its a good thing I'm preferring my Tau for GTs right now anyway, because I obviously couldn't play Eldar in 6th and Wave Serpents are bad in 7th. /Sarcasm

1. Melta, Haywire, AP1 are decent AT weapons, the rest is usable against fake armor like AV12- and is more saturation / multitool than AT really.
2. Because you stated the 60" range of the Wave Serpent shield like all the Eldar OP / WS OP trolls. You brought that argument in a thread where it doesn't even belong.
3. Maybe your experience is not enough to contradict statistics and logic and maybe you need a real argument to join this discussion rather than a hypothetical :"I'm good and I think they're better".

You need to seriously stop attacking those who disagree with you as Trolls or incompetent.

1. And every army has access to those in abundance.... Fake Armor? So when a counter argument is created, you just hand wave it away as not counting because it's fake. Even when it's the majority of a AT scenarios, and includes the Wave serpent.

2. Yes, I stated the range if it's immensely flexible and powerful ignore cover weapon in an argument about how easy a Wave Seroent can utilize cover with minimal impact on it's shooting instead of Jinking. Silly me, making logical arguments....

3. Maybe my experience isn't, but you've not supplied either statistics or logic that support your argument to a greater degree than the counter arguments supplied. P.S. I am good, and I do think they are better. And so do the best 40k players I know, some of whom are GT winners. Not to mention the public opinion of those I don't personally know who are the best 40k players in the nation.


If you want to keep insulting me and my skill, say put your models where your mouth is. I'll be at NOVA at the end of August. Please come and show me you are a better player..

 Zagman wrote:
You need to seriously stop attacking those who disagree with you as Trolls or incompetent.

1. And every army has access to those in abundance.... Fake Armor? So when a counter argument is created, you just hand wave it away as not counting because it's fake. Even when it's the majority of a AT scenarios, and includes the Wave serpent.

2. Yes, I stated the range if it's immensely flexible and powerful ignore cover weapon in an argument about how easy a Wave Seroent can utilize cover with minimal impact on it's shooting instead of Jinking. Silly me, making logical arguments....

3. Maybe my experience isn't, but you've not supplied either statistics or logic that support your argument to a greater degree than the counter arguments supplied. P.S. I am good, and I do think they are better. And so do the best 40k players I know, some of whom are GT winners. Not to mention the public opinion of those I don't personally know who are the best 40k players in the nation.

If you want to keep insulting me and my skill, say put your models where your mouth is. I'll be at NOVA at the end of August. Please come and show me you are a better player..

1. More or less yes, do you know of a competitive army that does not ?

2. Mentioning the 60" range on the TL Wave Serpent Shield is very obvious bad faith.

3. I have supplied statistics, and the logic to estimate the future statistics based on those statistics and the BRB changes. You have supplied your opinion.

I'm not even in the US and if I ever think competing in 40K is worth a plane ticket, buying all the competitive models and painting them, yes I will do my best to show you that I can be a better player. I'll show anyone. even those I may not have a chance of beating.
But then, this has nothing to do with being good at 40K, and everything to do with being good at understanding the implications of the 7th edition changes.

If you would like me to advise you on tactics, you can send me a battle report and I'll tell you what I think can be done better.

morgoth wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
You need to seriously stop attacking those who disagree with you as Trolls or incompetent.

1. And every army has access to those in abundance.... Fake Armor? So when a counter argument is created, you just hand wave it away as not counting because it's fake. Even when it's the majority of a AT scenarios, and includes the Wave serpent.

2. Yes, I stated the range if it's immensely flexible and powerful ignore cover weapon in an argument about how easy a Wave Seroent can utilize cover with minimal impact on it's shooting instead of Jinking. Silly me, making logical arguments....

3. Maybe my experience isn't, but you've not supplied either statistics or logic that support your argument to a greater degree than the counter arguments supplied. P.S. I am good, and I do think they are better. And so do the best 40k players I know, some of whom are GT winners. Not to mention the public opinion of those I don't personally know who are the best 40k players in the nation.

If you want to keep insulting me and my skill, say put your models where your mouth is. I'll be at NOVA at the end of August. Please come and show me you are a better player..

1. More or less yes, do you know of a competitive army that does not ?

2. Mentioning the 60" range on the TL Wave Serpent Shield is very obvious bad faith.

3. I have supplied statistics, and the logic to estimate the future statistics based on those statistics and the BRB changes. You have supplied your opinion.

I'm not even in the US and if I ever think competing in 40K is worth a plane ticket, buying all the competitive models and painting them, yes I will do my best to show you that I can be a better player. I'll show anyone. even those I may not have a chance of beating.
But then, this has nothing to do with being good at 40K, and everything to do with being good at understanding the implications of the 7th edition changes.

If you would like me to advise you on tactics, you can send me a battle report and I'll tell you what I think can be done better.

1. That have easy access to them in their competitive list. Not many. Necron for example. HP Stripping is the most effective AT. I like how you conveniently ignored the discussion about AV12-.

2. It is a 60" weapon that is twinlinked the majority of the time within 36". I even supplied the statistical different. Without Twinlinking the Serpent Shield is still a phenomenal weapon. I've demonstrated this.

3. You have supplied some evidence, dismissed much more, and used your biased opinion to form a conclusion all while attacking the arguer Ad Hominem.

Oh?! So you don't compete competitively on a high level? Well, isn't that interesting. Because, the guys that do buy the plane tickets, do buy and paint competitive armies disagree with you en masse.

I agree, this argument is all about being good at understanding the implication of 7th edition changes and not being stuck in a 6th edition Wave Serpent Gunboat frame of reference. Open your mind, and stop dismissing arguments out of hand, and stop insulting those who disagree. At the least its just bad form.

Get tacitcal advice from you? Not likely. You've demonstrated a clear close minded outlook at lack of understanding of the finer points of the game and the competitive tournament scene. I will pass on your gracious and pretentious offer.