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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 16:34:09
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I know the IH like to amp up their bionics to the max, I wonder, does this make your standard IH marine stronger (in any aspect) or weaker (bionics possibly being worse replacements) than other marines?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 17:08:29
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Morally dubious, perhaps, but augmetic limbs of decent quality are superior to meat limbs in every possible way.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 17:08:40
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Man I'll tell you, I arm wrestled a IH last weekend... and it was rough hey. I'd say he was stronger than the vanilla marines I'm used to wrestling. ?.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 18:11:02
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Stronger where their bionic is assuming the other Marine isn't also using a bionic I think.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 18:32:15
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Much, much MUCH stronger. And Iron Hand filled with augmentations to the point he's pretty much a machine is ridiculously stronger than the average Space Marine and would simply trash one in melee. They also get to the point where they're beyond Astartes biological immortality, and the Iron Hand can live off absolutely nothing for hundreds-thousands of years without entering the comatose state of Astartes when denied any resources for survival or need to stem horrific injury.
There was a short story in the Deathwatch Xenos Hunters (IIRC that was the title) where a Tau recon team hunting through a jungle found a Deathwatch squad that got wiped out by mutant Tyranids. They found an Iron Hand and resurrected him (no life signs) by feeding him their power-packs for their pulse rifles, he then teamed up with a Tau Water Caste to finish the mission and wipe out the mutant 'Nid "root".
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 22:59:00
Subject: Re:Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Dakka Veteran
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I'd go with weaker, there's been instances of Marines losing their combat effectiveness with Bionics. The most recent one, and the only instance I can recall as of right now is from the recent novel Master of Sanctity.
A member of the Deathwing is severely crippled and has most of his body removed. They say they can fit him with bionics, but that he'll no longer be able to serve in the Deathwing and instead will perhaps be able to become a tank crewman.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/26 23:01:59
Subject: Re:Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Animus wrote:I'd go with weaker, there's been instances of Marines losing their combat effectiveness with Bionics. The most recent one, and the only instance I can recall as of right now is from the recent novel Master of Sanctity.
A member of the Deathwing is severely crippled and has most of his body removed. They say they can fit him with bionics, but that he'll no longer be able to serve in the Deathwing and instead will perhaps be able to become a tank crewman.
That's likely due to inferior technology. I remember there being a part of some book where an Iron Hand with full bionics ripped apart a tank or something. The Iron Hands aren't weaker, some are at the point that they don't even really need power armor.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 04:29:29
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 04:30:31
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Tunneling Trygon
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
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Dual-wielding bolters.
The Flesh is Weak.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 04:41:00
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Unit1126PLL wrote:For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.
The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 04:47:01
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wyzilla wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.
The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.
I use Vaylund Cal as the Chapter Master (Iron Father Coldatus Arcturus) for my DIY Logicians chapter. He can be found on page 17 of this PDF from Forge World. It's the 6th Edition Characters update for Space Marines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 05:01:21
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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Don't know if this belongs in a separate post, but can bionics cause librarians to lose their connection to the warp (like they can cause loss of connection to the Force in Star Wars)?
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Space Marines, Orks, Imperial Guard, Chaos, Tau, Necrons, Germans (LW), Protectorate of Menoth
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 05:48:01
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Tunneling Trygon
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
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No reason why they should.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 05:50:36
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Enginseer with a Wrench
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Wyzilla wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote:For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.
The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.
Minor correction to that. He is S5.
To counter flesh is weak, I'll point at Arjac of the Space Wolves. Also S5 and has no known bionics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 05:58:13
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Stronger.
Iron Hands aren't holding onto some silly fantasy that machine can be made more powerful than man. Replacing eyes with auto-targeters that can see all spectrum of light and arms with servo-motors that can flip a car are straight upgrades.
They even used to have rules for this. Back in the day, IH got bionics which in its old, convoluted way, was effectively a 6++ on all their models. The idea was that if a normal space marine took an autocannon round to the shin, they'd be down for the count if it pierced through their power armor. In the case of bionic limbs, even if the armor fails the space marine can just straight ignore the damage and keep on fighting if it hit an artificial limb.
That sounds like stronger than average to me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/27 06:02:55
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Ailaros wrote:Stronger.
Iron Hands aren't holding onto some silly fantasy that machine can be made more powerful than man. Replacing eyes with auto-targeters that can see all spectrum of light and arms with servo-motors that can flip a car are straight upgrades.
They even used to have rules for this. Back in the day, IH got bionics which in its old, convoluted way, was effectively a 6++ on all their models. The idea was that if a normal space marine took an autocannon round to the shin, they'd be down for the count if it pierced through their power armor. In the case of bionic limbs, even if the armor fails the space marine can just straight ignore the damage and keep on fighting if it hit an artificial limb.
That sounds like stronger than average to me.
The misconception of the Iron Hands being "weaker" is caused by people mistaking their ideology for being weaker. Bionics are good, but the Iron Hands ' zealotry is unleathy, and was something Manus intended to address right before good 'ol Fulgrim separated his head from his shoulders. It does get annoying when people think this means bionics are weaker.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 09:20:22
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Stronger, they can enhance there capabilities with bionics, strength, speed etc.
There bionic limbs etc will be of highest quality available in impirium, there space marines.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 10:13:57
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 12:40:22
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Furyou Miko wrote:Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.
Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations. As to the Iron Hands being stronger, that would depend on the degree to which they have been augmented with bionics. A full bionic Iron Hand would be many times stronger and more resillient than an average Space Marine. But most Iron Hands are not augmented to such a degree. It is only the veterans who are very heavily augmented. Of course, this is about physical strenght. Mentally, their angst and irrational hatred makes them a lot weaker than the average marine.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/29 12:41:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 14:24:01
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
USA, Maine
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Bionics, even high grade bionics, have trade offs. While stronger, they would most likely be slower and less agile, so it would all come out even in the end.
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Painted armies:
Orks: 11000 points
Marines: 9500 points
Khorne Marines: 2500 points
Khorne Demons: 1500 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 14:32:49
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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PhillyT wrote:Bionics, even high grade bionics, have trade offs. While stronger, they would most likely be slower and less agile, so it would all come out even in the end.
Truth. Marines are superfast.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 14:44:40
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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According to GW it's Grey Knights > Ultramarines > Those who wish they were Ultramarines.
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My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 14:56:45
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Iron_Captain wrote:Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.
Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 15:12:06
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
USA, Maine
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Furyou Miko wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.
Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.
I am quite sure that the fluff makes it quite easy to include other chapters with forge worlds at their disposal or industrial complexes to produce munitions. GW fluff is wide open in regards to the resources available to Space Marines.
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Painted armies:
Orks: 11000 points
Marines: 9500 points
Khorne Marines: 2500 points
Khorne Demons: 1500 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 15:16:33
Subject: Re:Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
Schofield Barracks Hawaii
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id say since there whole army get a 6++ and there machines have it will not die they are stronger than average.
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Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!
DS:90S++G++MB-I+Pw40k11+D++A+++/fWDR+++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 19:59:08
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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Furyou Miko wrote:Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.
No, but being on extremely good standings with the mechanicus probably does...
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Space Marines, Orks, Imperial Guard, Chaos, Tau, Necrons, Germans (LW), Protectorate of Menoth
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/29 22:39:40
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Furyou Miko wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.
Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.
I think marines malevolent don't have any gear because they are complete  to everyone. The fluff states a chapter forge is capable of building almost all basic gear including bolters, heavy weapons, munitions, power armour and rhino based vehicles that a chapter needs to operate. Whilst the mechanicum provide advanced gear like TDA, Dreadnoughts, land raiders and space ships through ancient treaties and stuff. Although this does vary between chapters. Chapters like the iron knights, aurora chapter, salamanders and the sons of medusa probably rely on the mechanicum very little.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 09:27:15
Subject: Re:Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Ultramarine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Well.....if we set aside bionics for the moment, I would say they are just as strong as other Space Marines. I'm pretty sure its just their skin that is weak, but I don't know too much about the Iron Hands. I do know Salamanders are known to be the strongest, however, they have slower reflexes. But to get back on topic, since most Iron Hands DO have bionic limbs, I would say they are stronger.
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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 16:39:23
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Furyou Miko wrote:Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.
It sure is a lot easier, though, when they can be all like "hey, we worship the same ideas as you that nobody else understands. Hit us up, bro".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 18:33:31
Subject: Are Iron Hands marines stronger or weaker than the average space marine?
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
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Well the idea is the replacements are better. If not, they would not get them
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"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons |
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