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I know the IH like to amp up their bionics to the max, I wonder, does this make your standard IH marine stronger (in any aspect) or weaker (bionics possibly being worse replacements) than other marines?

Morally dubious, perhaps, but augmetic limbs of decent quality are superior to meat limbs in every possible way.

Man I'll tell you, I arm wrestled a IH last weekend... and it was rough hey. I'd say he was stronger than the vanilla marines I'm used to wrestling. ?.

Stronger where their bionic is assuming the other Marine isn't also using a bionic I think.

Much, much MUCH stronger. And Iron Hand filled with augmentations to the point he's pretty much a machine is ridiculously stronger than the average Space Marine and would simply trash one in melee. They also get to the point where they're beyond Astartes biological immortality, and the Iron Hand can live off absolutely nothing for hundreds-thousands of years without entering the comatose state of Astartes when denied any resources for survival or need to stem horrific injury.

There was a short story in the Deathwatch Xenos Hunters (IIRC that was the title) where a Tau recon team hunting through a jungle found a Deathwatch squad that got wiped out by mutant Tyranids. They found an Iron Hand and resurrected him (no life signs) by feeding him their power-packs for their pulse rifles, he then teamed up with a Tau Water Caste to finish the mission and wipe out the mutant 'Nid "root".

I'd go with weaker, there's been instances of Marines losing their combat effectiveness with Bionics. The most recent one, and the only instance I can recall as of right now is from the recent novel Master of Sanctity.
A member of the Deathwing is severely crippled and has most of his body removed. They say they can fit him with bionics, but that he'll no longer be able to serve in the Deathwing and instead will perhaps be able to become a tank crewman.

Animus wrote:
I'd go with weaker, there's been instances of Marines losing their combat effectiveness with Bionics. The most recent one, and the only instance I can recall as of right now is from the recent novel Master of Sanctity.
A member of the Deathwing is severely crippled and has most of his body removed. They say they can fit him with bionics, but that he'll no longer be able to serve in the Deathwing and instead will perhaps be able to become a tank crewman.

That's likely due to inferior technology. I remember there being a part of some book where an Iron Hand with full bionics ripped apart a tank or something. The Iron Hands aren't weaker, some are at the point that they don't even really need power armor.

For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.

Dual-wielding bolters.

The Flesh is Weak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.

The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.

The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.

I use Vaylund Cal as the Chapter Master (Iron Father Coldatus Arcturus) for my DIY Logicians chapter. He can be found on page 17 of this PDF from Forge World. It's the 6th Edition Characters update for Space Marines.

Don't know if this belongs in a separate post, but can bionics cause librarians to lose their connection to the warp (like they can cause loss of connection to the Force in Star Wars)?

No reason why they should.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
For what it's worth, the Forge World Special Character for the Iron Hands and their successors (named Vaylund Cal) is Strength and Toughness 6, mounted on a 40mm base, and is Bulky.

The flesh is weak indeed. Yeouch, S and T 6? Transhumanism FTW I guess.

Minor correction to that. He is S5.

To counter flesh is weak, I'll point at Arjac of the Space Wolves. Also S5 and has no known bionics.

Stronger.

Iron Hands aren't holding onto some silly fantasy that machine can be made more powerful than man. Replacing eyes with auto-targeters that can see all spectrum of light and arms with servo-motors that can flip a car are straight upgrades.

They even used to have rules for this. Back in the day, IH got bionics which in its old, convoluted way, was effectively a 6++ on all their models. The idea was that if a normal space marine took an autocannon round to the shin, they'd be down for the count if it pierced through their power armor. In the case of bionic limbs, even if the armor fails the space marine can just straight ignore the damage and keep on fighting if it hit an artificial limb.

That sounds like stronger than average to me.

 Ailaros wrote:
Stronger.

Iron Hands aren't holding onto some silly fantasy that machine can be made more powerful than man. Replacing eyes with auto-targeters that can see all spectrum of light and arms with servo-motors that can flip a car are straight upgrades.

They even used to have rules for this. Back in the day, IH got bionics which in its old, convoluted way, was effectively a 6++ on all their models. The idea was that if a normal space marine took an autocannon round to the shin, they'd be down for the count if it pierced through their power armor. In the case of bionic limbs, even if the armor fails the space marine can just straight ignore the damage and keep on fighting if it hit an artificial limb.

That sounds like stronger than average to me.

The misconception of the Iron Hands being "weaker" is caused by people mistaking their ideology for being weaker. Bionics are good, but the Iron Hands ' zealotry is unleathy, and was something Manus intended to address right before good 'ol Fulgrim separated his head from his shoulders. It does get annoying when people think this means bionics are weaker.

Stronger, they can enhance there capabilities with bionics, strength, speed etc.

There bionic limbs etc will be of highest quality available in impirium, there space marines.

Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.

Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.

As to the Iron Hands being stronger, that would depend on the degree to which they have been augmented with bionics. A full bionic Iron Hand would be many times stronger and more resillient than an average Space Marine.
But most Iron Hands are not augmented to such a degree. It is only the veterans who are very heavily augmented.
Of course, this is about physical strenght. Mentally, their angst and irrational hatred makes them a lot weaker than the average marine.

Bionics, even high grade bionics, have trade offs. While stronger, they would most likely be slower and less agile, so it would all come out even in the end.

 PhillyT wrote:
Bionics, even high grade bionics, have trade offs. While stronger, they would most likely be slower and less agile, so it would all come out even in the end.

Truth. Marines are superfast.

According to GW it's Grey Knights > Ultramarines > Those who wish they were Ultramarines.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.

Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.

Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.

I am quite sure that the fluff makes it quite easy to include other chapters with forge worlds at their disposal or industrial complexes to produce munitions. GW fluff is wide open in regards to the resources available to Space Marines.

id say since there whole army get a 6++ and there machines have it will not die they are stronger than average.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.

No, but being on extremely good standings with the mechanicus probably does...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not really. Many chapters have armouries full of stuff and ancient relics. And other chapters have heavy industry on their world. Like everything in the Imperium, the Space Marines still need the Mechanicum, but they are less dependent on it than most other Imperial organisations.

Tell that to the Marines Malevolent. It's really only the First Founding Chapters that have those advantages, and even they are generally reliant on the Mechanicum for bolter rounds and power armour.

I think marines malevolent don't have any gear because they are complete to everyone. The fluff states a chapter forge is capable of building almost all basic gear including bolters, heavy weapons, munitions, power armour and rhino based vehicles that a chapter needs to operate. Whilst the mechanicum provide advanced gear like TDA, Dreadnoughts, land raiders and space ships through ancient treaties and stuff. Although this does vary between chapters. Chapters like the iron knights, aurora chapter, salamanders and the sons of medusa probably rely on the mechanicum very little.

Well.....if we set aside bionics for the moment, I would say they are just as strong as other Space Marines. I'm pretty sure its just their skin that is weak, but I don't know too much about the Iron Hands. I do know Salamanders are known to be the strongest, however, they have slower reflexes. But to get back on topic, since most Iron Hands DO have bionic limbs, I would say they are stronger.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Being Space Marines doesn't actually net them the best gear automatically, you know. They still have to beg and scrape and deal with the Mechanicum to get anything more than the basic stuff their techmarines can build.

It sure is a lot easier, though, when they can be all like "hey, we worship the same ideas as you that nobody else understands. Hit us up, bro".

Well the idea is the replacements are better. If not, they would not get them