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I am not at all happy with the Sisters from FFG. Their AoF are freakin' Space-Magic, which I'm also not happy with especially as they have turned the Sisters into little more than buff-dispensers.

 Psienesis wrote:
Some NSFW Sisters-related art is not bad.

I guess it depends what you mean by NSFW. Yeah gruesomely mutilated bodies are not exactly SFW, and that is what a good depiction of the repentia is. But what we are talking about here is more of an explicitly sexual nature.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:

Lynata wrote:Though it should be mentioned that those books contradict each other as well as GW's own material, and generally don't portray Sisters as badass.

But don't get me started on that front.

That's because you're meant to roll up a Sororitas Player Character and make your own badass Battle Sister :p

Then why don't Marines and Inquisitors get the same treatment?

Why the heck do Battle Sisters receive nerfed "civilian" equipment? I mean, come on! Civilian grade weapons?! What the feth?

Everything in those damn books exists to make it look like Sisters are inferior to their male counterparts, except the parts where they start shooting laser beams from their eyes like a bunch of heretic witches, and you can't tell me that is a good representation of the Sororitas as holy warrior-maidens.

Huh? Civilian grade? They get what is functionally "Light Power Armour" in the game system, except the chest piece has AP8 (So 7 on Head, Arms and Legs and 8 on the Body). Regular/Legion Power Armour is AP8 all round. That seems to be valid to me, as they're not quite at the Astartes level. Light Power Armour, if you go by the later Rogue Trader/Black Crusade iterations, also has the benefit of not making you 'Hulking' size (enemies get +10 BS to hit you) like regular Power Armour does for non-space marines. The Godwyn-De'az Pattern Bolter also has the same stats as a normal Boltgun, except it has the Reliable quality as well (so only jams on a roll of 100). That hardly screams Civilian equipment to me - unless you're talking about the Starting Package for the Novice Sister in The Inquisitors Handbook where you start off with a laspistol and carapace armour. But you need to keep in mind that this is an RPG, which means you need to allow for character progression. I can't imagine why a GM would not let you receive proper Sororitas equipment when you leveled up to a Sister Militant rank....

As for the Faith system, I always thought they were really great implementations. Almost all of them are about testing against the Character's Willpower or Fellowship in order to do stuff like buffs against Fear, buff damage resistance, ward against Demons/Warp creatures, various healing/recovery effects or buffing the strength of attacks with "Righteous Power". That sounds pretty close imo to what the Act of Faith or War Hymn abilities do in tabletop, just expanded on. However, yes, there is that one (out of the many) Faith Power that is an AoE energy attack. You are not forced to take it - you don't even have to take any Faith powers, since you still need to buy them with XP. The Faith 'powers' aren't even specifically intended for Sororitas characters anyway, and besides they cost of using them is pretty high since you need to use your Fate Points to activate them. Saying they 'go around shooting laser beams from their eyes like witches' is a ridiculous over-exaggeration.

GoonBandito wrote:
They get what is functionally "Light Power Armour" in the game system, except the chest piece has AP8 (So 7 on Head, Arms and Legs and 8 on the Body). Regular/Legion Power Armour is AP8 all round. That seems to be valid to me, as they're not quite at the Astartes level.

Well, some Sisters codices (I do not remember which one atm) explicitly said the Sisters power armor provide the same level of protection as the Astartes power armor, and the differences are on life-support system and gadgets like that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

GoonBandito wrote:
They get what is functionally "Light Power Armour" in the game system, except the chest piece has AP8 (So 7 on Head, Arms and Legs and 8 on the Body). Regular/Legion Power Armour is AP8 all round. That seems to be valid to me, as they're not quite at the Astartes level.

Well, some Sisters codices (I do not remember which one atm) explicitly said the Sisters power armor provide the same level of protection as the Astartes power armor, and the differences are on life-support system and gadgets like that.

For the purposes of the RPG game systems, it's a difference of 1AP on the head, arms and legs, same AP on the body and you aren't considered Hulking. That's a fair tradeoff to me in terms of gameplay. There's also plenty of ways to increase the AP. "Best Craftsmanship" on any piece of armour makes it +1AP. There's plenty of fluff backing for a GM to hand out Best Craftsmanship armour to a Sororitas, namely that the Ecclesiarchy is rich as feth and can easily afford to equip the Sisters like that.

They literally use the words "civilian grade" to describe the Godwyn De'az bolter. Explain that.

So tell me, how does "for the purposes of the RPG Game system" actually justify nerfing the Sororitas power armour, which, by fluff, offers the same protection as Astartes power armour?

By your logic, Sororitas armour should be light power armour with Best Craftsmanship automatically.

Besides, those books also say that there are more Sisters in the Calixis sector than there are in the entire rest of the Imperium.

There's this narrative battle report of an Apocalypse game that I loved reading.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?2676-Narrative-Apocalypse-Battle-Report-Sisters-of-Battle-Vs-Orks

The FFG books apparently also say that the Sisters can fight "even" renegade IG and Orks. Meanwhile, in the studio fluff, Sisters are noted as purging SM Chapters. I think that says it all on the disparity between codex Sisters and FFG Sisters.

Also, the Witch Hunters codex calls the Godwyn De'az bolter one of the best pattern bolters that is produced. To call it "civilian grade" is a bit silly, really.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Also I am pretty convinced that the series ends with one of the two main characters becoming a Living Saint.

Eh. I'd rather that din't happen. I prefer the stufio fluff, wherein "Living Saint" is just a title for people that have been declared Saints whilst alive, and Celestine is the only magical angel woman going around.

Still, pretty much any additional SoB stories from James Swallow would be cool. He writes them quite well.

Psienesis wrote:Some NSFW Sisters-related art is not bad. I mean, this is a penitent order that spends a lot of time in self-castigation and mortification for sins both real and imagined.
And there's some NSFW art that is part-and-parcel to the Sisters, like the Repentia.
And then there's the NSFW art that has the Sisters doing things that are probably everyday normal activities for them that they'd think nothing of... but the voyeuristic point of view the art grants make it somewhat erotic in nature, I suppose.
And then there's... everything else.

Well said.

I admit, some of the stuff I'd consider "normal" for Sisters is a guilty pleasure of mine.
Unfortunately, most of the NSFW art does not fall into this category.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I guess it depends what you mean by NSFW. Yeah gruesomely mutilated bodies are not exactly SFW, and that is what a good depiction of the repentia is. But what we are talking about here is more of an explicitly sexual nature.

Ah, but what is sexual and what isn't also is a matter of perspective. A brutal whipping administered by a Repentia Mistress is also "a good depiction" in that it is entirely accurate - but that doesn't mean that, on the interwebs, this could not be someone's fetish. Or even just a lone Sister standing "naked vigil on cold stone floors" (3E Rulebook fluff) showing off her sixpack. Or two naked Sisters sparring with sharp, bladed weapons as a way of training. The list goes on!

Furyou Miko wrote:Then why don't Marines and Inquisitors get the same treatment?

To be fair, Inquisitors do get the same treatment as well, Civilian Terminator armour and everything.

It's just Space Marines that receive this ridiculous push, and I have a suspicion the origin of this gap isn't dislike for the Sisters, but rather a hard-on for Marines and, more importantly, the game's broken Characteristics mechanics.
It is entirely possible to have Space Marines in that game that, barring "Righteous Fury" critical hits, become invulnerable to bolter salvos, and given that CSM are an enemy you can fight in their Deathwatch game, the designers opted to make all Marine guns better in order to overcome the stacking resistance of Hitpoints+Armour+Toughness. People's naked skin being more protective than the armour they wear (tellingly, this does not only apply to Marines!) has long since been one of my largest criticisms I have against that system.

So instead of fixing the game's injury mechanics, they opted to sacrifice consistency and just make Space Marines even better than they'd be already. If this solution had been kept solely to Deathwatch (where you play only Marines), it would not have been too bad, but with the Grey Knights this has now crept into Dark Heresy as well.

GoonBandito wrote:Huh? Civilian grade? They get what is functionally "Light Power Armour" in the game system, except the chest piece has AP8 (So 7 on Head, Arms and Legs and 8 on the Body). Regular/Legion Power Armour is AP8 all round. That seems to be valid to me, as they're not quite at the Astartes level. Light Power Armour, if you go by the later Rogue Trader/Black Crusade iterations, also has the benefit of not making you 'Hulking' size (enemies get +10 BS to hit you) like regular Power Armour does for non-space marines. The Godwyn-De'az Pattern Bolter also has the same stats as a normal Boltgun, except it has the Reliable quality as well (so only jams on a roll of 100). That hardly screams Civilian equipment to me - unless you're talking about the Starting Package for the Novice Sister in The Inquisitors Handbook where you start off with a laspistol and carapace armour. But you need to keep in mind that this is an RPG, which means you need to allow for character progression. I can't imagine why a GM would not let you receive proper Sororitas equipment when you leveled up to a Sister Militant rank....

The "Civilian grade" is an old running gag that goes back to the Dark Heresy core rulebook that says anything but the stuff wielded by Space Marines is "civilian grade", which is a bit silly - and directly contradicting the original fluff.

I'm not quite sure why you think SoB should have gear that is "not quite at the Astartes level", but it may be worth pointing out that in Games Workshop's own d100 game (called Inquisitor), Marine weapons and armour operate on the same level as that of Sisters and Inquisitors, reflecting Codex fluff, 40k TT rules, and common sense (PA carries itself, why should it be less protective for non-Astartes?).
Though it is less the armour, but more the weapons with which I've got a personal beef. Marine bolters (and pretty much everything else) do +25% damage compared to everyone elses, including Sisters' and Inquisitors. 25%! In this light, it sure seems that Sisters get "civilian grade" stuff.

It's also worth pointing out that the first iteration of Space Marines in the system - an NPC in the Dark Heresy adventure book Purge the Unclean, had power armour and weapons that were on the same level as that of other characters. Only after FFG took over did they boost Marine equipment for the purpose of the Deathwatch game, although as pointed out above there was a sort of mechanical need to do so (it was either this, or fixing the flawed Characteristics).

On a sidenote: FFG's implementation of the Black Carapace is also quite silly. Why exactly are bulky Space Marines harder to hit even when they don't move or are not aware of the attack?

GoonBandito wrote:As for the Faith system, I always thought they were really great implementations. Almost all of them are about testing against the Character's Willpower or Fellowship in order to do stuff like buffs against Fear, buff damage resistance, ward against Demons/Warp creatures, various healing/recovery effects or buffing the strength of attacks with "Righteous Power". That sounds pretty close imo to what the Act of Faith or War Hymn abilities do in tabletop, just expanded on. However, yes, there is that one (out of the many) Faith Power that is an AoE energy attack. You are not forced to take it - you don't even have to take any Faith powers, since you still need to buy them with XP.

In my opinion as an SoB fan, the Faith system in Blood of Martyrs sucks, and the one in Inquisitor's Handbook was miles better, even though that one was flawed as well.

BoM has clearly pushed the Sisters' abilities from ambiguous "miracles" (the Codex actually hints at Acts of Faith being nothing but willpower + training + coincidence + superstition) into obvious Space Magic, making them considerably less badass than in the source material. It also makes Space Marines look like fools for still not believing the Emperor is a god, even if his "priestesses" go around shooting beams of light out of their eyes.

I have been working on a version that is somewhat closer to GW's original material:

(note that the list of starting Skills/Talents/Traits is balanced for a Deathwatch game, though - a version intended for use in DH would start at a notably lower level, close to the Inquisitor's Handbook Novice)

BoM also did away with the Inquisitor's Handbook's rather cool and fitting progression from Novice to various branches of the Sisterhood, and replaced it with a generic Battle Sister class and - almost an insult - boring variants of the Cleric and Adept careers for the Non-Militant Sisters.

In terms of fluff, Troike already mentioned the difference in combat potential portrayal, though since FFG took over Dark Heresy those books also started to contradict themselves. Inquisitor's Handbook says there are 50 Battle Sisters (newly arrived from elsewhere) in the Calixis Sector and actually makes this a plot hook by describing this as something to worry about for local nobility, none of whom have an idea as to why they came. That was cool.
Now, BoM has centuplicated these numbers, making Battle Sisters a common sight throughout the sector and letting them appear considerably less elite. Yawn.

It's not that BoM was all bad, but personally I liked the Inquisitor's Handbook a lot more. If it were up to me, I would want the career path and rules from IH, with the requisition system from BoM, and fluff from the Codex.

GoonBandito wrote:The Faith 'powers' aren't even specifically intended for Sororitas characters anyway

Which is just another slap in their face. Now they don't even get to keep their unique mechanic.

Troike wrote:Eh. I'd rather that din't happen. I prefer the stufio fluff, wherein "Living Saint" is just a title for people that have been declared Saints whilst alive, and Celestine is the only magical angel woman going around.
Still, pretty much any additional SoB stories from James Swallow would be cool. He writes them quite well.

Word!

 Troike wrote:
The FFG books apparently also say that the Sisters can fight "even" renegade IG and Orks. Meanwhile, in the studio fluff, Sisters are noted as purging SM Chapters. I think that says it all on the disparity between codex Sisters and FFG Sisters.

Arguably, renegade IG and orks can be harder to fight than SM chapters, though sheer numbers.

 Lynata wrote:
Ah, but what is sexual and what isn't also is a matter of perspective.

Inserting stuff into vagina is clearly sexual
No, seriously, the poses themselves are usually enough to give out what is non-sexual nudity and what is softporn.

 Lynata wrote:
A brutal whipping administered by a Repentia Mistress is also "a good depiction" in that it is entirely accurate

Why are you referring to the worse thing ever introduced in the Sisters, the SM Mistress, as an example of something not sexual ?

 Lynata wrote:
Or even just a lone Sister standing "naked vigil on cold stone floors" (3E Rulebook fluff) showing off her sixpack.

If the sister is in a B&B pose, with the usual “attractive” body type, then no, I would definitely not call that an accurate description.
On the other hand, if it depicts a body scared by self-mutilations and battle injuries, in a non-lascivious pose… who am I kidding, nobody draws that kind of stuff anyway .

 Lynata wrote:
Or two naked Sisters sparring with sharp, bladed weapons as a way of training.

How is that an accurate description? Why would they do that? They do self-mutilation, but training with no protection is stupid. It basically means you have to practice doing only non-lethal, non-disabling moves. People train the other way, they wear protective garment and blunted weapons. That way, they can practice the most violent, dangerous move, those that they want to do against an actual opponent.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I already read Faith and Fire + Hammer and Anvil which, well, are the only two books with Sisters of Battle in. Since its summer I got free time on my hands and I am going to read the Horus Heresy books on loan from a friend but wondered if there was any good sisters of battle fan fiction. I got links to some decent Dark Eldar fanfic recently so wondered if there was anything similar for the sisters of battle?

Basically anything with story, action, character and finished.

Best stuff I have read is here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/586311.page

1. Bolter B-Word Privileges: Ginevra begins her Novitiate, the hard way.
2. Ollanius Pius Requiem: Novice Ginevra encounters the Imperial Guard. There is singing.
3. Able Baker: Expect some sort of Inquisition.
4. The Beginning: Every Sister's story begins with tragedy... and paperwork.
5. Dancing with the Astartes: The finale, involving the galaxy's nicest Space Marine, a shopping trip, and permanent scarring. (This story)

This is also very good.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547273.page

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Why are you referring to the worse thing ever introduced in the Sisters, the SM Mistress, as an example of something not sexual ?

Not something sexual. Something that can be sexual or not depending on perspective.
It's plain old flagellantism, and the concept of purification by pain has been part of Sisters fluff ever since 1st Edition Rogue Trader in 1987. It's the same as the two monks flogging each other in The Name of the Rose, except here it's two girls doing it. If this makes it more sexual than when two men are doing it, I'd say this is more a problem of contemporary society and the sexualisation of anything that has to do with women in general, rather than 40k fluff.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:If the sister is in a B&B pose, with the usual “attractive” body type, then no, I would definitely not call that an accurate description.
On the other hand, if it depicts a body scared by self-mutilations and battle injuries, in a non-lascivious pose… who am I kidding, nobody draws that kind of stuff anyway .

Some do, but I'll refrain from posting examples here out of fear for breaking some policy.
But, basically, think of the various "naked people" statues from ancient Greece or Rome, or Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" propaganda movie for Nazi Germany and its glorification of the human (aryan) body, or that French Revolution drawing with the half-naked girl marching in the front. In these cases, what can make it sexy is the sheer purity of essence - an attractive body coupled with the specific absence of a sexualised pose. A naked archer readying her bow, a female athlete showcasing her muscles, ...

This stuff is far less common/popular than the smut, obviously, but it exists and some people think it is cool. And I could easily picture SoB artwork of this nature, though I've only ever seen two or three pieces approaching this elusive category.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:How is that an accurate description? Why would they do that? They do self-mutilation, but training with no protection is stupid. It basically means you have to practice doing only non-lethal, non-disabling moves. People train the other way, they wear protective garment and blunted weapons. That way, they can practice the most violent, dangerous move, those that they want to do against an actual opponent.

The training could be less about practicing non-lethal moves, but more about deflecting incoming attacks. You fail to parry, you're going to bleed. Think of it as an incentive. Harsh, but (imho) totally believable for the Sisterhood, given that apparently you start getting clobbered on the head with power maces in the Schola Progenium already.

Katana Tormark's face was so slick with sweat, her chocolate-brown skin looked oiled. She, too, wore a tengui saturated with perspiration, and her hair, cut close in wavy locks, glistened and clung to her scalp. Her nimble fingers quickly peeled off her do, and she dropped the body armor onto her helmet.
"Don't you understand, Toni?", she said, unself-consciously high-stepping out of her hakama, then letting the black trousers puddle on the floor with a whisper of fabric against wood. "As long as you keep practicing, you'll never know real fear. You don't play kendo, you fight in the way of the sword. You must be in fear of your life. Then your mind will be one with your body, and the sword merely an extension of the whole." As she said this, she pushed her jacket from her shoulders and let the keiko-gi slither to the floor.
"I can't fight you that way, Tai-sho. I am Amaterasu, and a Chu-sa. I have pledged my life for you."
"Yes", said Katana, her tone a low, melodic contralto. "But pledging loyalty and fighting for your life are two different things, hai?"
- Battletech novel : Daughter of the Dragon

(another good example of how much better other franchises are in terms of featuring female characters and minorities, by the way, in this case the main protagonist being both a woman and black)

Of course, alternatively they could also be training non-lethal attacks in preparation for the apprehension of Apostates and Witches for trial or sanctioning. They are kind of a police force, too, after all, and occasionally even get to arrest someone. Especially if called in by an Inquisitor who wants to have prisoners to interrogate.

BattleTech had some great characters and books - although most of the females were also very hot (and just finished playing MEchwarrior online so very topical)

Natasha Kerensky, Melissa Steiner, Cassie Southern and many many others ah happy memories

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Arguably, renegade IG and orks can be harder to fight than SM chapters, though sheer numbers.

7
Though in studio fluff, Sisters take on much more dire threats and still win. And, soldier for soldier, Sisters are way above renegade IG. Arguably the average Ork troop too, in terms of training and equipment.

Suffice to say, I think it's a good bet that the FFG books didn't describe the Space Marines as being "even" able to fight renegade guard.

What threats do Sisters routinely take on and triumph over that the Guard do not?

The same ones that Space Marines do.

In essence, Imperial Guard can win anything by sheer attrition (and, as an organisation, are thus superior to Astartes or Sororitas), but if you need something done quick and urgent, you call in the various elite formations, because there the IG will fail, on the basis of not being able to amass the necessary amount of cannon-fodder and heavy machinery in sufficient time.

Mr Morden wrote:BattleTech had some great characters and books - although most of the females were also very hot (and just finished playing MEchwarrior online so very topical)
Natasha Kerensky, Melissa Steiner, Cassie Southern and many many others ah happy memories

Quite so!

The funny thing about Battletech is that all the female MechWarriors tend to wear nothing but a shirt and panties - but it's okay because it's the same for the men.

Troike wrote:Suffice to say, I think it's a good bet that the FFG books didn't describe the Space Marines as being "even" able to fight renegade guard.

You'd win this one.

 Lynata wrote:
It's plain old flagellantism

Flagellantism implies hurting oneself. Not hurting others while wearing a huge armor with a helmet that hides most of your face while showing your mouth with tons of lipstick on it .
Honestly, I have no problem with the flagellant theme of the repentia given it is done right, but the mistress is so obviously S&M themed that it is painful.

 Lynata wrote:
Some do, but I'll refrain from posting examples here out of fear for breaking some policy.

I just made a link to something worse a few message ago, so I am pretty sure you can link it here. Just put the required warnings, use spoiler tags, and link rather than embed. Else, PM.

 Lynata wrote:
But, basically, think of the various "naked people" statues from ancient Greece or Rome, or Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" propaganda movie for Nazi Germany and its glorification of the human (aryan) body, or that French Revolution drawing with the half-naked girl marching in the front. In these cases, what can make it sexy is the sheer purity of essence - an attractive body coupled with the specific absence of a sexualised pose. A naked archer readying her bow, a female athlete showcasing her muscles, ...

Well, I know about general non-sexual nudity (completely SFW). I am speaking about whether or not people do that kind of fanart with sisters.

 Lynata wrote:
The training could be less about practicing non-lethal moves, but more about deflecting incoming attacks. You fail to parry, you're going to bleed. Think of it as an incentive. Harsh, but (imho) totally believable for the Sisterhood, given that apparently you start getting clobbered on the head with power maces in the Schola Progenium already.

You do not need to be naked to hurt when failing to parry, really. That justification is so far-stretch it feels more like an excuse.

 Lynata wrote:
(another good example of how much better other franchises are in terms of featuring female characters and minorities, by the way, in this case the main protagonist being both a woman and black)

Every 40k game I have played included black women . Arguably, that was always my own models, but still…

 Lynata wrote:
Of course, alternatively they could also be training non-lethal attacks in preparation for the apprehension of Apostates and Witches for trial or sanctioning. They are kind of a police force, too, after all, and occasionally even get to arrest someone. Especially if called in by an Inquisitor who wants to have prisoners to interrogate.

Do they go naked when trying to capture people? Or do they try to capture naked people?

 Troike wrote:
Though in studio fluff, Sisters take on much more dire threats and still win. And, soldier for soldier, Sisters are way above renegade IG. Arguably the average Ork troop too, in terms of training and equipment.

That was just a jape, directed in the general direction of space marine fanboys .

Actually, the 'naked training' thing is an homage to the naked greek wrestler, and not intended to be sexual at all.

The idea there is that no clothes means fewer things for your opponent to grab in order to throw you around the place.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, the 'naked training' thing is an homage to the naked greek wrestler, and not intended to be sexual at all.

Are there any police force, or any military, s around the world where naked training is a thing?
Beside, I very much doubt homage to ancient Greece works here given how Spartan women were mocked by other Greeks, especially Athenians, for doing sport and dressing in “revealing” outfits .

Well, the homage is to male greeks. :p

Also, apparently, Spetznaz actually do naked combat drills, although thats from asking a friend who knows stuff rather than any particular research. The anecdote goes;

They were knocked out, taken to a dark room half-filled with water mixed with pig's blood, stripped naked, left there, and and an angry German Shepherd was released into the room with them.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Some NSFW Sisters-related art is not bad.

I guess it depends what you mean by NSFW. Yeah gruesomely mutilated bodies are not exactly SFW, and that is what a good depiction of the repentia is. But what we are talking about here is more of an explicitly sexual nature.

NSFW is plain Not Safe For Work. Though I guess it depends, specifically, on where you work and what your job entails; where I work, it wouldn't have to be anything particularly violent or explicitly sexual. Nudity of any kind is right out, as is anything more suggestive than what you'd find in an issue of People magazine.

Honestly, I have no problem with the flagellant theme of the repentia given it is done right, but the mistress is so obviously S&M themed that it is painful.

But, see, that's the thing. The trappings of the Repentia Mistress being S&M flavored is because S&M, 90% of it, is not sexual at all, once you take the personal attraction to the fetish out of it. Once that's gone? It's just a torture/punishment scenario.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, the homage is to male greeks. :p

Oh. Then the rest of the artworks are just homage to porn actors, I guess!

 Psienesis wrote:
NSFW is plain Not Safe For Work.

Then I would assume DakkaDakka is not safe for most work. Because in most job, you are not supposed to go on forums related to miniature games during your work hours. Or any other website not directly related how you are supposed to earn your money.
That is why I never quite understood what NSFW was supposed to mean exactly.

 Psienesis wrote:
Nudity of any kind is right out

Meaning that you cannot watch a movie aimed at young children, that got a rating of “For everyone” in a bunch of countries, like Kirikou and the sorceress, I guess. Because breasts. But apparently the level of violence on most 40k artworks seems okay, since I do not see any kind of NSFW warning around them.
Strange working place.

 Psienesis wrote:
The trappings of the Repentia Mistress being S&M flavored is because S&M, 90% of it, is not sexual at all, once you take the personal attraction to the fetish out of it. Once that's gone? It's just a torture/punishment scenario.

Nope. I am pretty sure that if 90% of what you do during your S&M sessions is akin to torture, you need psychiatric help. And better sooner than later.
I mean, just look at the traditional, cliche black leather costume of the dominatrix. How does that relate in any way to actual torture or punishment? Who would actually torture or punish a prisoner dressed that way? Do you think they used that kind of outfit in Guantanamo?
Or just look at actual torture practice, like waterboarding. Does that look like something S&M adepts would do to each other?
Obviously, there is a non-empty overlay between the two things, because S&M is inspired by actual dominance relation/punishment, but they are in no way equivalent.
And this head totally reference the specifics of S&M that are not in any way related to actual torture or punishment :

*coughs* actually, yes, waterboarding is something that several S&M "adepts" I know (nice phrasing) frequently indulge in. Including me.

Now, I could go into a lot of detail about the hows and whys of the torture aspect of BDSM, but I'm not completely certain that this is the venue for it. If you're interested in learning more, send me a PM.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Flagellantism implies hurting oneself.

This is only half-correct and depends on whether you are referring to flagellantism in the form of wandering peasants, or the ritual practice in various monastic communities. The English wikipedia article (from which I assume you got the information) is incomplete; the German version offers additional information, including the first recorded occurrence as well as a detailed description of the ritual as practiced in the St. Jacobs abbey of Luttich. I'll do a brief translation:

The first written record of self-castigation as a form of Christian penance stems from the biographer of Saint Padulf. According to this, he used to have his pupil Theodenus whip him during the fasting period.

The process of ritual self-castigation originates in the Liber Ordinarius of the St. Jacobs abbey in Luttich. The monk who wanted to have himself castigated asked a priest to perform the act. Then he sat down, bared his back and prayed the Confiteor three times. During the first two prayers, the priest answered with "Miseratur tui" and lashed at least three times. After the third time, he spoke the Indulgentiam, the short form of priestly absolution, and finished with the Absolve Domine. After this, three further strikes followed. Every monk was allowed to request such penitence sessions three times a day.

You see, I think the focus of flagellantism is on getting whipped as a form of cleansing, period. It matters not whose hand does the whipping, just that the recipient of the lashes is actually willing to do penance / is asking for it.

Now, I'm under no illusions that GW has not deliberately increased the fetish factor - just like they turn everything else up to eleven, too. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and say that it still makes sense from an in-universe point of view.
And I believe that the S&M impression of the Repentia Mistress would change quite a bit if you just paint her armour in the colours of another order like the Argent Shroud. The miniatures simply make SoB power armour look like leather if painted in black - this is not unique to the Repentia Mistress, but something that all Sisters minis "suffer" from, as the armour detail gets lost unless you look at them from up-close. It's where all the troll comments about "skintight power armour" come from.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I just made a link to something worse a few message ago, so I am pretty sure you can link it here. Just put the required warnings, use spoiler tags, and link rather than embed.

Well, alright.
NSFW Rated M for Mature Nudity etc blah blah.

I remember two more - one of a "lone survivor" wounded Sister in anguish ripping her armour from the chest and crying to the sky, and another similar to the first picture, just with more people (and the flagellation administered by someone else) - but I can't seem to locate them now. Maybe someone else knows them?

Anyways, yeah, as said before this stuff is extremely rare, but not non-existent. It's just not as popular as the standard smut, because the majority of people interested in naked Sisters have rather .. primitive tastes.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:You do not need to be naked to hurt when failing to parry, really. That justification is so far-stretch it feels more like an excuse.

You don't need to, but it hurts more and it can be justified with a focus on purity of the moment. "Just the Sister and her weapon". No armour or clothing to inhibit her movement, or to remind her of false protection. The only shield she has is her faith.
Look at the Repentia artwork from the Codex. If GW wouldn't be as kids-friendly, I'd expect the miniatures to wear (even) less, too.

And as Furyou Miko pointed out, there is precedence for naked training in real history.
Did you know that the term "gymnasium" is derived from the Greek word for "naked", as in "training naked"? Nakedness can play a spiritual role, and the Sisters are spiritual. If they stand naked vigils - actual GW fluff - why should they not do naked duels, too? After all, this is how the God-Emperor created them.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I am pretty sure that if 90% of what you do during your S&M sessions is akin to torture, you need psychiatric help. And better sooner than later.

Sadism and masochism in sexual practice have, for quite some time, been officially defined as abnormal perversions warranting psychiatric help. Needless to say, the definition thus seems to be rather fluid and (once again) depends on your perspective.

The BDSM subculture has become a bit more tolerated and accepted in recent decades, but modern medicine still propagates a significant (and harmful) bias in the majority of civilised countries.


[edit] By the way, I found this whilst browsing for the above-linked pictures. Quite a cool armour design - as I've said before, I am too used to the "boob plate" to imagine Sisters without it, but scaling it down like on that picture, and bulking the rest up a bit, might make for a nice compromise.

For some people, S&M is psychiatric help. Just so you're aware.

Hey, I am not judging. That might be hypocritical.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That was just a jape, directed in the general direction of space marine fanboys .

Okay, bud. If you say so.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What threats do Sisters routinely take on and triumph over that the Guard do not?

Aside form what Lynata said, my point was that the Sisters are an elite force, so triumphing over renegade IG and Orks isn't exactly a major accomplishment for them. The quote basically implies that that's the extent of their effectiveness.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Honestly, I have no problem with the flagellant theme of the repentia given it is done right, but the mistress is so obviously S&M themed that it is painful.

Honestly, I'm not sure that there is any way around that. The extreme penitent theme of the Repentia itself crosses over into what can be percieved as S&M territory. I think I'd vote to keep it more or less the same, since I'd rather the Sisters stick to that religous zealot theme, even if it might mean giving some people a different impression.

Troike wrote:I think I'd vote to keep it more or less the same, since I'd rather the Sisters stick to that religous zealot theme, even if it might mean giving some people a different impression.

This. In the end, Sisters are what you want to see them as. More than any other army in the franchise.

To some, they're Guardsmen in power armour, issued with downsized bolters and light armour, and good enough to triumph over some Orcs and Renegade IG.
To some, they're GW's female equivalent to Space Marines; elite warriors driven by burning faith and hatred, taking on - and having a chance to defeat - anything from heretics to xenos, from daemons to CSM.
To some, they're a penitent order whose members live a life of intense hardship, discipline and mortification of the body, entirely focused on cleansing themselves and everyone else.
To some, they're just jerk-off material.

Like Troike, I feel that any change to distance the Sororitas from this "proximity" to sexualisation would come at a cost to one of their core aspects as an army of religious nutjobs. Not only would it be a concession to those who feel a need to twist the image of the Sisterhood, it'd also sacrifice a part of their very nature.

There's Daemonifuge. That's a pretty decent graphic novel. Ephrael Stern is quite the badass.

 Lynata wrote:
Now, I'm under no illusions that GW has not deliberately increased the fetish factor - just like they turn everything else up to eleven, too.

Did they increase the fetish factor on WFB too ?

Do they look like S&M stuff?
Not everything .

 Lynata wrote:
And I believe that the S&M impression of the Repentia Mistress would change quite a bit if you just paint her armour in the colours of another order like the Argent Shroud.

Does not change much. That helmet is a dead giveaway, given the whips and the context.
Seriously, that helmet, that cape, those whips… am I the only one who finds the connection with sexually-charged imagery obvious and unfitting here?

 Lynata wrote:
It's where all the troll comments about "skintight power armour" come from.

That, or 2nd edition cover. Because really, that Sister must be painfully slim to even fit in this armor…
Or even current edition's cover. The armor on those leg is not what I would call very bulky. Compare it to how large the legs of the marine armor is.
Andrea Uderzo is the best at giving us Sisters in really bulky armor that does not seem skintight at all. I love that guy's artwork!

 Lynata wrote:
Well, alright.

You forgot the link part. No embedding usually allows to get away with more .

 Lynata wrote:
It's just not as popular as the standard smut, because the majority of people interested in naked Sisters have rather .. primitive tastes.

As opposed to your more… educated tastes ?

 Lynata wrote:
You don't need to, but it hurts more and it can be justified with a focus on purity of the moment. "Just the Sister and her weapon". No armour or clothing to inhibit her movement, or to remind her of false protection. The only shield she has is her faith.

Consider me very unconvinced. If you are religious and want more pain, you wear something like that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice
If you are more shooting-oriented (and Sisters sure do, only repentia and sister superior use any kind of close combat weapons), you do not need wrestle matches. And I do not see even those sisters that use melee weapon training by doing naked wrestle matches either, they would focus on their weapon of choice and there is no way you can train on using a chainsword, a powersword, a mace or an eviscerator naked.
That “inhibit movement” is part of the rhetoric bingo . It is bs. Really, training clothes will not inhibit movement at all, providing they were not designed by an idiot.
You are making excuses for depicting something very specific that does not in any way naturally comes out of the themes that Sisters of Battle emphasize. If you like looking at naked women fighting each other with swords, that is okay, but why have them be Sisters of Battle? If you want to depict Sisters of Battle, why would you have them striped out of their iconic gear (the power armor), and in some situation that has nothing to do with their theme (religious zealotry, excessive wealth, …)

 Lynata wrote:
Look at the Repentia artwork from the Codex.

If you are referring to the picture I think you are referring to, it is something completely different to what you are describing. It is body horror, and utterly unsexy. It does not evoke at all S&M, because stuff like recently gouged out eye, or almost shaved head with a bionic hole with badly scared skin around it, do not evoke S&M (or any activity from which one could derive pleasure).
I think this picture is awesome precisely because of that. There is just no way to mistake it for a bunch of Slaanesh cultist having a good time. It screams religious penance turned up to eleven. Something the miniatures, and most of the fan art, utterly fails to do (and I do not think they are trying either).

See, that drawing really does not fit your description here: “But, basically, think of the various "naked people" statues from ancient Greece or Rome, or Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" propaganda movie for Nazi Germany and its glorification of the human (aryan) body, or that French Revolution drawing with the half-naked girl marching in the front. In these cases, what can make it sexy is the sheer purity of essence - an attractive body coupled with the specific absence of a sexualised pose. A naked archer readying her bow, a female athlete showcasing her muscles, ... ”
Rather than ancient Greek statues or nazi propaganda film, look for inspiration on (NSFW because tons of actual blood) here. Does those picture look sexy, or horrifying?

 Lynata wrote:
And as Furyou Miko pointed out, there is precedence for naked training in real history.

Yeah, Spartan women (and Greek men) did so.
Does not mean it is fitting to the Sisters in any way. There are tons of stuff the Greek did that would totally not be fitted for Sisters, if you get what I mean. There has never been any kind of Greek inspiration in the Sisters. However, feel free to draw fanart of marines from the Minotaurs wrestle naked, that would be perfectly fitting.

 Lynata wrote:
The BDSM subculture has become a bit more tolerated and accepted in recent decades, but modern medicine still propagates a significant (and harmful) bias in the majority of civilised countries.

I stand by my words: if you are going out your or someone else's eye for pleasure, you need psychiatric help. Same if you shave their head, drill a hole in it, and put some metal stuff in there, or if you put needles through half of their faces, piercing their eyes in the process. If you just do light whipping and bondage and stuff like that, who care, but actual torture that you would die from without medical assistance?

 Lynata wrote:
[edit] By the way, I found this whilst browsing for the above-linked pictures. Quite a cool armour design - as I've said before, I am too used to the "boob plate" to imagine Sisters without it, but scaling it down like on that picture, and bulking the rest up a bit, might make for a nice compromise.

Looks too much like the marines armor. Need more bling. MOAR BLINGY SHINY STUFF!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure that there is any way around that. The extreme penitent theme of the Repentia itself crosses over into what can be percieved as S&M territory.

This does not seem in any way related to S&M to me, for reasons I mentioned above. The Mistress model (and concept) screams S&M to me. Am I the only one? Is that really just me?