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Uh, every time the Hunt for the Fallen is mentioned, they talk about how they kill off everyone they're with at the time to make sure that nobody knows that they're hunting for something called a Fallen.

Then there's all the forces they had promised to provide backup for and then subsequently abandoned to pursue their personal goals at the slightest sniff of a rumour of a Fallen, leaving billions of guardsmen or other Imperial forces to die.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, every time the Hunt for the Fallen is mentioned, they talk about how they kill off everyone they're with at the time to make sure that nobody knows that they're hunting for something called a Fallen.

Then there's all the forces they had promised to provide backup for and then subsequently abandoned to pursue their personal goals at the slightest sniff of a rumour of a Fallen, leaving billions of guardsmen or other Imperial forces to die.

No... I'm not sure where you're getting your information but Your first claim is just wrong. Seeing as how they are the only ones who know of the Fallen, they wouldn't go around talking about them. So they wouldn't be killing off people afterwards because they don't even know what they were there for in the first place.

Your second one is somewhat wrong. Yes they do randomly disappear from battlefields. That part is true. Billions of guardsmen to die? Where is this part? If a planet has billions of guardsmen on it, the loss of a company of Astartes isn't going to be as significant as you're making it out to be.

Read up on Cypher and some of the older white dwarf stuff. It's all there. Just because the newer texts have watered it down doesn't make it any less valid.

I have the Cypher Dataslate and never owned a single white dwarf so I'm sure you can understand my questioning.

But I'll still maintain my position without having seen any of them

 Ignatius wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, every time the Hunt for the Fallen is mentioned, they talk about how they kill off everyone they're with at the time to make sure that nobody knows that they're hunting for something called a Fallen.

Then there's all the forces they had promised to provide backup for and then subsequently abandoned to pursue their personal goals at the slightest sniff of a rumour of a Fallen, leaving billions of guardsmen or other Imperial forces to die.

No... I'm not sure where you're getting your information but Your first claim is just wrong. Seeing as how they are the only ones who know of the Fallen, they wouldn't go around talking about them. So they wouldn't be killing off people afterwards because they don't even know what they were there for in the first place.

Your second one is somewhat wrong. Yes they do randomly disappear from battlefields. That part is true. Billions of guardsmen to die? Where is this part? If a planet has billions of guardsmen on it, the loss of a company of Astartes isn't going to be as significant as you're making it out to be.

It is known for sure that the Dark Angels have destroyed an entire Imperial starship, the Ophidium Gulf in their reckless disregard for Imperial mandate.

It is also known that the Dark Angels took a detour from moving to assist Imperial forces on Periliac Prime to exterminate the loyal population of the planet Minoria without explanation. Due to the time spend on this detour, Periliac Prime also falls to the Orks.

I also recall two specific examples from the codex of Dark Angels forces stopping to destroy chaos uprisings in two different systems instead of continuing their hunt.

I've acknowledged their actions have lead to deaths, I'm just disagreeing to the extent to which they are "heretics"

 Ignatius wrote:
I also recall two specific examples from the codex of Dark Angels forces stopping to destroy chaos uprisings in two different systems instead of continuing their hunt.

I've acknowledged their actions have lead to deaths, I'm just disagreeing to the extent to which they are "heretics"

How many loyal Imperial citizens and soldiers do you have to kill to be a traitor? One? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? A world?

Are Grey Knights traitors? Is the Inquisition treacherous? Are the Marines Malevolent traitors?

I will say that one of the draws to Dark Angels for me is that they toe that line so very well (again opinion here). They do something that crosses the line in either direction? They just do the opposite and put themselves right back on there. I don't think we are disagreeing as much as it seems though.

To be clear: Dark Angels have, and continue to engage in treacherous behavior. For this, they are traitors. They also do the complete opposite. For this, they are not traitors. Easy right?

 Ignatius wrote:
Are Grey Knights traitors? Is the Inquisition treacherous? Are the Marines Malevolent traitors?

I will say that one of the draws to Dark Angels for me is that they toe that line so very well (again opinion here). They do something that crosses the line in either direction? They just do the opposite and put themselves right back on there. I don't think we are disagreeing as much as it seems though.

To be clear: Dark Angels have, and continue to engage in treacherous behavior. For this, they are traitors. They also do the complete opposite. For this, they are not traitors. Easy right?

1) Yes, actually. I think if the niche the Grey Knights fill wasn't so crucial, I would consider them traitors as well. 2) By definition, no - the Inquisition is the body which defines who is traitor in the first place! Even so, some within the Inquisition consider others in the same organization to be traitors, so perhaps yes, to some degree. And 3) yes, the marines malevolent are basically traitors. XD

Maybe they 'make up for their treason' in your eyes, but once treachery has been committed, it is my view that there should be no turning back. One who is a traitor but then returns to the light is merely cursed by both sides and praised by neither.

Eh, they are as about as treasonous as the Space Wolves. So they are both traitors that are kept around because they served with the Emps and they are sort of helpful.

No the Dark angels are not traitors, or heretics. they have enthusiastically fought the imperium's enemies for 10,000 years.

And no they do not have tainted geneseed, they together with the fists, and ultramarines have the most pure genseed
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed#.U7D6nPmSxVk

And the excuse that dark angels may leave halfway through a battle, Well marines do have autonomy to wage war as they see fit, And has been stated in numerous fluff that the fallen are extremely dangerous and have done alot of bad stuff such as insurections, lead rebellions, ambushed marines etc. so when they pop their little hooded heads up they need to be taken out asap

and heretics, the imperium itself is heresy, nowhere near what the emperor wanted for mankind and i imagine if hes re-born alot of peope will lose their heads

They betray their own allies with surprising frequency and for no good reason.

jhe90 wrote:
There loyal, but the whole fallen quest has lead to unfortunate incidents like one with black templers etc.

As a DA player, im sorry to say, i have no idea about this. Can someone expand.

Jason

 jason1977 wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
There loyal, but the whole fallen quest has lead to unfortunate incidents like one with black templers etc.

As a DA player, im sorry to say, i have no idea about this. Can someone expand.

Jason

Look up the Ophidium Gulf incident, where the Black Templars successfully captured Cypher, but the DA attacked their starship, destroying it and letting Cypher escape.

Muahaha this post is entirely. My fault, started off as just a joke to get under the OP. Skin during games, look the DA are not all fallen to chaos but they are by no means the great defenders of man kind any more, in my opinion they areon the same boat as the wolves and blood angels, just doing their own thing, the only reason I attack them so hard at the shop is because it bothers op and the DA are just straight up liars...they may not worship chaos but they are indeed heretics. Ask any good inquisitor

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Ask any good inquisitor

As the Dark Angels well know, the only good Inquisitor is a dead Inquisitor.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Ask any good inquisitor

As the Dark Angels well know, the only good Inquisitor is a dead Inquisitor.

No megusta

......no..... just.. no

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Ask any good inquisitor

As the Dark Angels well know, the only good Inquisitor is a dead Inquisitor.

And people wonder if the DA are traitors or not...

I was referring to the slaughter of Inquisitor Halleck, and the Dark Angels general edginess around the members of the Inquisition. I have no doubt that they consider the only 'good' Inquisitors to be the dead ones, or the ones light years away from, and completely uninterested in them. Just saying.

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

They haven't Fallen yet. But they are definitely touched by Chaos. The Chaplains are on the way to corruption as it is

Zodiark wrote:

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

They haven't Fallen yet. But they are definitely touched by Chaos. The Chaplains are on the way to corruption as it is

Huh? They are?

 Ignatius wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

They haven't Fallen yet. But they are definitely touched by Chaos. The Chaplains are on the way to corruption as it is

Huh? They are?

Read the Dark Angel books by Gav Thorpe, starting with the first.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

They haven't Fallen yet. But they are definitely touched by Chaos. The Chaplains are on the way to corruption as it is

Huh? They are?

Read the Dark Angel books by Gav Thorpe, starting with the first.

I'll check em out. Thanks

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Zodiark wrote:

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Not sure if this is a real argument or just something to try to upset some Dark Angel fans. Have the Dark Angel chapter really fallen to Chaos or are they still loyal to the emperor? So far the only reasoning for this is in fact a portion of their legion has rebelled against the loyalist but correct me if I'm wrong wasn't Luther really the only one tainted by Chaos and even then it was through his jealousy of Lion's success. Another thing is that they have one of the purest gene seeds amongst the Adeptus Astartes so how could they possibly be tainted by chaos.

This may seem like a little ramble but I just wanted to get this off my chest and have the community put in their few cents to really ends this. So if you believe the Dark Angels are chaos or not then please explain why that is and bring up some examples that support your claims. I hope this doesn't become a very heated thread but I really felt that this needed to be sorted out and so this whole thing can be put to rest once and for all.

They haven't Fallen yet. But they are definitely touched by Chaos. The Chaplains are on the way to corruption as it is

Huh? They are?

Read the Dark Angel books by Gav Thorpe, starting with the first.

Not seeing the fall to chaos there.

Dark angels dont work for man anymore? "they just do their own thing"

Fourth Quadrant Rebellion - 775.M41. The entire Chapter deployed, playing a crucial role in crushing the insurrection.[8] Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing defeated the Fallen Kaligar in a duel lasting a full day and a night.[2a]
Macharian Heresy - M41
Battle for Sularian Gate - M41. The Dark Angels and their Imperial Guard allies battle Waaagh! Groblonik[2d]
Siege of Vraks - 821.M41. Supreme Grand Master Azrael led nearly half of the chapter during the Siege. The force arrived on board the Battle Barge Angel of Retribution and the Strike Cruisers Sword of Caliban and Salvation and a small number of Escorts.[6a]
Faze V Uprising - 897.M41. The Dark Angels battle a diabolical machine intelligence and insurgent uprising on the world of Faze V.[2d]
Pandorax Campaign - 959-961.M41.
Cleansing of Durganion XIII - 996.M41
Battle of Piscina IV - 997.M41[2d]. The 3rd & 9th Company took part in the campaign, the 3rd company was honoured for its defence of the Koth Ridge.[7]
Battle for Bane's Landing - M41. The 5th Company under Master Balthasar confronts the Chaos Space Marine warband known as the Crimson Slaughter in a quest for vengeance for their earlier killings of Battle-Brothers.[18]
13th Black Crusade - 999.M41. All 10 Companies are deployed around the Eye of Terror to combat Abaddon the Despoiler. The Dark Angels search for the mysterious Voice of the Emperor.[17]

Just a couple of notable battles, but id say to the hundred's and the thousands of dark angels succesors' that have died defending the imperium as somewhat insulting.

there not messiahs touched by angels but that is not what marines are meant to be, there merciless killers bred for the long war doing the impossible so that the imperium can endure until victory or death for ten thousand years since there inception

 mitch_rifle wrote:
Dark angels dont work for man anymore? "they just do their own thing"

Fourth Quadrant Rebellion - 775.M41. The entire Chapter deployed, playing a crucial role in crushing the insurrection.[8] Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing defeated the Fallen Kaligar in a duel lasting a full day and a night.[2a]
Macharian Heresy - M41
Battle for Sularian Gate - M41. The Dark Angels and their Imperial Guard allies battle Waaagh! Groblonik[2d]
Siege of Vraks - 821.M41. Supreme Grand Master Azrael led nearly half of the chapter during the Siege. The force arrived on board the Battle Barge Angel of Retribution and the Strike Cruisers Sword of Caliban and Salvation and a small number of Escorts.[6a]
Faze V Uprising - 897.M41. The Dark Angels battle a diabolical machine intelligence and insurgent uprising on the world of Faze V.[2d]
Pandorax Campaign - 959-961.M41.
Cleansing of Durganion XIII - 996.M41
Battle of Piscina IV - 997.M41[2d]. The 3rd & 9th Company took part in the campaign, the 3rd company was honoured for its defence of the Koth Ridge.[7]
Battle for Bane's Landing - M41. The 5th Company under Master Balthasar confronts the Chaos Space Marine warband known as the Crimson Slaughter in a quest for vengeance for their earlier killings of Battle-Brothers.[18]
13th Black Crusade - 999.M41. All 10 Companies are deployed around the Eye of Terror to combat Abaddon the Despoiler. The Dark Angels search for the mysterious Voice of the Emperor.[17]

Just a couple of notable battles, but id say to the hundred's and the thousands of dark angels succesors' that have died defending the imperium as somewhat insulting.

there not messiahs touched by angels but that is not what marines are meant to be, there merciless killers bred for the long war doing the impossible so that the imperium can endure until victory or death for ten thousand years since there inception

The problem is that if they discovered evidence of a nearby member of the Fallen they would have completely abandoned those campaigns without a second thought (except the first one as that already involved a member of the Fallen). Even worse, if they thought any allied forces might discover the member of the Fallen before them they wouldn't hesitate to open fire on other loyalists. There are very few "loyal" chapters who would be willing to go to those lengths against the Imperium. On the flip side, there are some chapters that have been declared renegade that are still loyal to the Imperium. There is a lot of grey area here, but IMO the Dark Angels are on the wrong side of the grey area.