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I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....

The question is...HOW?

I just don't see it.

I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.

Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...

As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...

What say fellow dakkanaughts?

-STS

Conquering a planet is easy, ruling a planet is hard.

Almost all the Primarchs were either in control of their planets by the time the Emperor found them or put the existing governing bodies in place. And they didn't have their Astartes Legions to help them do it.

Of course this process most likely took decades of politicking, diplomacy, warfare, legislation and building infrastructure.

When your mind cast doubt on their abilities, remember that the Rule of Cool is the defining force of the lore of Warhammer 40k.

Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

I had a four paragraph response to this but my iPad crapped out. Oh well. Essentially:

Because Space Marines that's why. GW was like, "crap we made their numbers super small". "Not a problem, let's just have them win anyways"

I don't agree either, but I let the background say stuff like this because I know that it practically wouldn't work at all.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

You are aware that Marines have their own starships right?

 Swastakowey wrote:


I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased.

Here is the gist of it.

If GW says a squad is enough, a squad is enough. Disliking it does not inherently make it false.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

You are aware that Marines have their own starships right?

You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased.

Here is the gist of it.

If GW says a squad is enough, a squad is enough. Disliking it does not inherently make it false.

I never said false, just beyond stupid.

 Swastakowey wrote:


You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?

It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.

A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.

It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. It's an issue with the franchise in general, and focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?

It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.

Really, since when have navies conquered anything?

They can have 10 star ships and bomb the world for days. but it wont conquer the planet. Just be a pain in the butt. If anything its just adding to the huge stuff the guy who ordered the attack.

In the pacific the US navy would bombard islands for days before attacking. Did very little to actually hinder the enemy. They still needed to send in 10s of thousands of marines to actually conquer it.

Navies help win wars. They do not win them on their own.

Like most humans, we will quickly find a way to eliminate it. Also we are talking about the 40k universe which would be far better than ours in terms of defenses.


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.

It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. Focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.

Agreed, I always imagine hundreds of millions of men having to conquer planets in my fluff. If not more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?

It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.

My post mentioned that when the Primarchs were cast into the Warp they conquered their adopted planets with nothing but the strength of their fists and the persuasiveness of their voices. No starships that I recall

It also bothers me when a handful of regiments are sent in to take planets as well. 1,000,000 men or so at the most. Unless it's a planet of rock bashing cavemen that will not be enough. It's the same problem with the Grand Army of the Republic and it's pitifully tiny numbers.

I think Games Workshop (And a lot of sci-fi writers) believes a world's population will surrender when a single large and exciting battle is won.

There is no instance of any of the Primarchs conquering planets simply by beating the inhabitants' to death with brute force. They became leaders of their worlds by winning hearts and minds, and the Primarchs who were unable to do that... didn't rule their worlds.

Like Angron.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
There is no instance of any of the Primarchs conquering planets simply by beating the inhabitants' to death with brute force. They became leaders of their worlds by winning hearts and minds, and the Primarchs who were unable to do that... didn't rule their worlds.

Like Angron.

I suppose i'm not good at getting to the point which wasin some cases all it took was the Primarch to bring the entire world to the Imperial fold.

I understand your point. My point is that no Primarch has conquered a planet single-handidly purely through strength of arms. If a Primarch manages to conquer a planet alone, it's through diplomacy. And what's so far-fetched about that?

@Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.

Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.

Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.

It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. It's an issue with the franchise in general, and focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.

This is also true. How many Tyranids did Maugan Ra smack around now again?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War

For King and Country!


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 Swastakowey wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.

Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.

Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.

SBG wrote:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War

For King and Country!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.

Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.

Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.

haha well there you have it. So yes, a Navy can win a war on its own... but its certainly not worth bargaining on and in almost every situation its better to not 100% rely on the navy to conquer countries.

SBG wrote:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War

For King and Country!

Hahaha. Wow.

Why do the British give us gak for our foreign policy again?

Damn, ninja'd by SBG

To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...

Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.

An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?


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Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.

Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.

Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.

 Pyeatt wrote:
To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...

Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.

An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.

Its not that easy. The ship has to move to position to actually bomb all these cities (remember, people are paid to watch space its not like they will appear right in orbit guns blazing), it also has to have a supply chain to reliably take out all these cities along with the ability to survive the weapons we use against it (if we do).

But I will admit, nothing in 40k makes sense. Im sure they have written some crazy stupid weapons that those ships can carry. Which makes things hard to argue against because most of the fluff is just ridiculously dumb for the most part.

But even in the fluff (the bit we are arguing about) space marines dont win by waiting for the ships to (stupidly) eliminate the planet before they land and plant a flag. So with that in mind, there is no chance of it happening.

They do say in the fluff that despite thier small numbers Space Marines have been enough to hold everyone at bay so there's that.
As for conquering a planet? As far as I understand a squad of six Deathwatch is considered overkill for anything but the most brutal of needs, so there is that. Despite how easily I seem to clear them off the table in droves, they are really written to be the elite of the elite. Other armies see Imperial Guard battalions and are like "Whoa...this is gonna take some doing but we got this." They see a company of Space Marines and they go "fffffffffuuuuuuuuuu..." then crap themselves.
Imo, they are the top warriors in the galaxy currently, so I can see the intimidation factor alone as being plenty to hold a planet in check. At least for a time...

The SM's sever the head and rip out the jugular, though the body has been known to twitch and convulse after its demise.

the OP is right though. On their own they can't completely conquor a world by themselves unless it's within the bounds of the reasons stated above. But I've always seen it as they need the Guard to control the people. The marines are just for the leaders and most important targets on the planet.

Even with the excuses GW gives ("they're pretty strong", "they leave most of the work to the Imperial Guard", etc.) it's pretty nonsensical in a IRL sense. A company of Space Marines would have a tough time securing the state of Connecticut, nevermind entire planets.

Space Marine Legions of the Great Crusade as described in FW's HH series approach the necessary size for planetary operations, given what we know about Space Marines and how they operate..

slade the sniper wrote:
I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....

The question is...HOW?

I just don't see it.

I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.

Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...

As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...

What say fellow dakkanaughts?

-STS

Honestly outside of ridiculous amounts of plot-armor and bad writing there no possible way 1000 marines would be capable of taking over most planets. Just another example of how GW has no sense of scale and blind favoritism for SM.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It also bothers me when a handful of regiments are sent in to take planets as well. 1,000,000 men or so at the most. Unless it's a planet of rock bashing cavemen that will not be enough. It's the same problem with the Grand Army of the Republic and it's pitifully tiny numbers.

I think Games Workshop (And a lot of sci-fi writers) believes a world's population will surrender when a single large and exciting battle is won.

Yeah, I wonder at the lack of understanding of human nature that portrays on the part of writers...people will fight to the death, and the deaths of their children and be more than happy to sacrifice millions in the quest to achieve some goal much less important than winning a literal existential war...to think that people would just roll over and go "hmmmm, well, they killed off the planetary president, guess I better do what they say..." is kind of asinine.

Additionally, how much ammo does a space marine carry for those bolters...I mean, they must be packing about 2,000 to 3,000 rounds a piece, never use suppressive fire, get one shot kills with every shot while on the move at 10's of Km/h, incredibly accurate real time intel down to individual enemies while still having absolute complete control of the tactical, operational and strategic (or global, I suppose) enemy order of battle, never eat, never sleep, have immunity to indirect fire, mines, ambushes, and be able to have global maneuverability in mere minutes/an hour at max, never have jammed commo...

I know it's just a sci-fi game, but sometimes it just boggles my mind that people that write/play/fantasize about warfare would be so bad at understanding it.

-STS