Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 19:07:34
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
rigeld2 wrote:
Why not play against that list? It's not particularly strong, or mobile... it just is difficult to kill at 500 points.
Why not play against 9 Spyders at 500pts?
Because it's 27 T6 3+ sv wounds and 18 S6 AP2 attacks, in 500pts. Most armies are going to have a problem with that. I wasn't going to have much fun trying to fight that with 4 plasma guns and 2 Rapier Laser destroyers and 25 T3 infantry running around with S3 guns.
And it's not even that difficult - they're just as hard to kill as Carnifexes which die to Tac Squads often enough.
They're less than half the price of a Carnifex and I wasn't playing a Space Marine army?
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 19:11:54
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Vaktathi wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Why not play against that list? It's not particularly strong, or mobile... it just is difficult to kill at 500 points.
Why not play against 9 Spyders at 500pts?
Because it's 27 T6 3+ sv wounds and 18 S6 AP2 attacks, in 500pts. Most armies are going to have a problem with that. I wasn't going to have much fun trying to fight that with 4 plasma guns and 2 Rapier Laser destroyers and 25 T3 infantry running around with S3 guns.
27 T6 wounds that move 6" a turn, have no (zero, zip, zilch, nada) ranged weaponry in 500 points. 4 plasma guns and 2 RLD would tear them a new somethingorother - let alone your t3 dudes that go and capture objectives.
And it's not even that difficult - they're just as hard to kill as Carnifexes which die to Tac Squads often enough.
They're less than half the price of a Carnifex and I wasn't playing a Space Marine army?
Right - 3 dakkafexes is significantly more scary. I get that.
But a 50 point model without a gun that can't use two of its main abilities (spawning scarabs, repair) is good ... why?
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/30 20:16:19
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 19:18:59
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
rigeld2 wrote: Vaktathi wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Why not play against that list? It's not particularly strong, or mobile... it just is difficult to kill at 500 points.
Why not play against 9 Spyders at 500pts?
Because it's 27 T6 3+ sv wounds and 18 S6 AP2 attacks, in 500pts. Most armies are going to have a problem with that. I wasn't going to have much fun trying to fight that with 4 plasma guns and 2 Rapier Laser destroyers and 25 T3 infantry running around with S3 guns.
27 T6 wounds that move 6" a turn, have no (zero, zip, zilch, nada) ranged weaponry in 500 points. 4 plasma guns and 2 RLD would tear them a new somethingorother - let alone your t3 dudes that go and capture objectives.
And it's not even that difficult - they're just as hard to kill as Carnifexes which die to Tac Squads often enough.
They're less than half the price of a Carnifex and I wasn't playing a Space Marine army?
Right - 3 dakkafexes is significantly more scary. I get that.
But a 50 point model without a gun that can't use two of its main abilities (spawning scarabs, repair) is good ... why?
Because there's a lot of them, they're very hardy, they can very easily be deployed and advanced in such a way that every meaningful unit of yours gets to play with 2 or 3 of them at once and don't have a lot of maneuver room, they don't need a lot of attacks at that points level to be effective since they're facing relatively few foes, and what attacks they do have all hit like a truck.
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 20:20:25
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
Vaktathi wrote:Because there's a lot of them, they're very hardy, they can very easily be deployed and advanced in such a way that every meaningful unit of yours gets to play with 2 or 3 of them at once and don't have a lot of maneuver room, they don't need a lot of attacks at that points level to be effective since they're facing relatively few foes, and what attacks they do have all hit like a truck.
What's the range on RLD? Spyders move on average 9" a turn.
If all you said was "I didn't want to face an Unbound list." I'd be okay with it. My issue with your example is that it's not a difficult list at all to face - especially not one with what - 3 lascannons and 4 plasma guns?
There's nothing wrong with 9 Spyders. At all. Your dislike for it is exactly as valid as me saying I don't want to face 3 RLDs because they're ridiculously cheap.
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 21:05:31
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
rigeld2 wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Because there's a lot of them, they're very hardy, they can very easily be deployed and advanced in such a way that every meaningful unit of yours gets to play with 2 or 3 of them at once and don't have a lot of maneuver room, they don't need a lot of attacks at that points level to be effective since they're facing relatively few foes, and what attacks they do have all hit like a truck.
What's the range on RLD? Spyders move on average 9" a turn.
If all you said was "I didn't want to face an Unbound list." I'd be okay with it. My issue with your example is that it's not a difficult list at all to face - especially not one with what - 3 lascannons and 4 plasma guns?
2 and 4 yeah. At optimal range, that's almost 2 dead a turn. Against a decent player I should only really get 1 turn of that. Lets assume I get a generous two turns of beyond-optimal range fire before that and I down another each turn. That's 4 down on average (assuming no wounds getting spread around). That's on average 5 remaining at the top of turn 4 that are now across the board.
There's nothing wrong with 9 Spyders. At all. Your dislike for it is exactly as valid as me saying I don't want to face 3 RLDs because they're ridiculously cheap.
If I'd brought 12 of them you'd have a point. I don't think I'd want to play against that either. Spamming high T, cheap units in very small games without restriction or any structural need to take anything else isn't fun to play against.
I wouldn't have a problem with a couple of spyders. 4 plasma guns and a couple lascannons aren't going to dump 9 however.
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 21:20:05
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
|
Rigeld2, what I think the point is, it's valid to say "I'd rather not play without restrictions".
You can post ways to beat any particular list, but without restrictions, making a take-all-comers list becomes almost impossible in this edition.
And, of course, shenanigans. Shenanigans everywhere because the rules are so full of holes and Unbound lets you take it that much farther. GW's stated intent was to use it to "forge a narrative", implying player restraint. You can't assume that in an event, and so to have decently composed armies some basic restrictions will be needed.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 21:49:57
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
The Hive Mind
|
RiTides wrote:Rigeld2, what I think the point is, it's valid to say "I'd rather not play without restrictions".
Yes, absolutely. I have no problem with that.
The problem I have is
This game simply does not function properly if there is no restraint,
And then bringing up 9 Spyders as an example. a) The game does function - I've played it. Works fine (well, as well as 40k works). b) 9 Spyders isn't anywhere near a bad list to play against.
You can post ways to beat any particular list, but without restrictions, making a take-all-comers list becomes almost impossible in this edition.
Sure. And?
And, of course, shenanigans. Shenanigans everywhere because the rules are so full of holes and Unbound lets you take it that much farther. GW's stated intent was to use it to "forge a narrative", implying player restraint. You can't assume that in an event, and so to have decently composed armies some basic restrictions will be needed.
I disagree and have participated in an event that demonstrated that wasn't true.
WargamesCon had an unlimited tournament that (I think) only brought 6 people, but I'd bet that's because more people preferred restrictions and comp - which, again is fine. Just admit it instead of saying "It can't work unless we do X."
|
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 21:51:02
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Right, we're wandering afield here.
Yes, FW was banned at this tournament; it sounds like a common local ruling at this location, by decision of the venue. Discussion of that is adequately complete, so leave it be.
And there's no reason to probe deeper into 9 Spyders @ 500 pts in this thread. Take it elsewhere, if it really needs more conversation. Back on topic!
I'm curious about the missions used in this event; how does a 2 Transcendent C'tan list win on anything other than "I killed stuff"?
|
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 21:56:34
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
|
rigeld2 wrote:I disagree and have participated in an event that demonstrated that wasn't true.
WargamesCon had an unlimited tournament that (I think) only brought 6 people, but I'd bet that's because more people preferred restrictions and comp - which, again is fine. Just admit it instead of saying "It can't work unless we do X."
Okay, I can grant you that, or most of it.
I, and most players according to polls so far, prefer non-Unbound games with some restrictions this edition.
I will add that personally, I think the game is more fun and works better that way... Just my opinion, though
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 22:26:30
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Awesome Autarch
|
Thanks for the post Orock as this is pretty much exactly what I expected to hear from an "anything goes" event. Just ridiculously OTT and silly.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/06/30 23:52:30
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Devastating Dark Reaper
Vancouver BC
|
Orrock. congrat on both painting and your misison to see "anything goes" tournament. for your comment on why your opponent find his army fun. He is expect you do the same by bringing crazy gak and have a game of crazy v crazy gak. Since, you didn't bring crazy gak that why both of you did not find the game fun. after all the tournament is set for that purpose. Is just you went there with a different purpose then the one set up by the tournament.
|
"those who know don't speak; those who speak don't know" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 05:59:47
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Trustworthy Shas'vre
|
Janthkin wrote:
I'm curious about the missions used in this event; how does a 2 Transcendent C'tan list win on anything other than "I killed stuff"?
I'm guessing that was partially to do with the low model count armies being played. It sounds like only 2 of the armies had more than 6 models, whereas a single C'Tran can wipe off 2+ units quite easily.
Against more 'normal' armies, each C'Tran can still destroy 2+ units per turn, from the first turn onwards. You need to be running some serious MSU that you can lose 10 units - and by the time you do that, the C'Tran are now getting 2 units under each hellstorm or barrage or stride. They are fast enough with an 18" move and 18/48" weapons that you can't really get away from them. A few armies could possibly do it, but not many, and certainly not the listed armies at the tournament.
I think that is the biggest problem with most of the lords of war, and a lot of 40k in general nowdays: while it is nearly always possible to construct a hard-counter with any list against any other list, the types of hard counters you need vary so much that you can't build a TAC list. Even the hard-counter lists often end up being coin-flip games: my revenant titan vs your warhound titan, who goes first wins! So while the game is balanced after a fashion, it's not a huge amount of fun playing unrestricted.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/01 06:17:04
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
|
Janthkin wrote:Right, we're wandering afield here.
I'm curious about the missions used in this event; how does a 2 Transcendent C'tan list win on anything other than "I killed stuff"?
That's what they did, every single game came down to a tabeling. All they have to do is sit in the relative center of the board near objectives, and wait for stupid people to move near objectives. No game for them went past turn 4, they had 2 template attacks each, the flamethrower d one, the super huge one, and 6d6 str 8 shots at BS 6. And the one thing that might have posed a problem was killed off before it could act. Now yes, if there was say a huge building in each corner that a savvy player could spread his objective markers around and just spread out his small units behind los blocking terrain, they might have been beatable. As is, every table probably had 1 piece of terrain that was big enough to block decently, and even then they would just put their objective near that piece on the visible to the middle of the board side, so you couldn't place 12 inches within, or 6 inches from the board. With 3 objective markers its pretty simple to choke off all the good hiding spots for them.
|
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 19:17:17
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Irked Necron Immortal
Columbia, South Carolina
|
We're gearing our 7th edition scene here locally. We've had a single all the things tournament, including unbound lists, but I wasn't able to attend. I didn't see any ridiculous vitriol posted on our facebook group, so I'm assuming it went well. We also had another tournament that specified battle forged only, with all other things allowed, and it too did well in the attendance department. I think Orock, your problem came from players not the lists themselves. Folks out to push an agenda, such as "this totally sucks and I'll show you why", always find the way to do it. Could also be poor mission design if you could fight the battle, lose the mission, essentially, and still win the game.
|
2000 pts
6000 pts
3000 pts
2000 pts |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/02 19:23:49
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
|
Sarge wrote:We're gearing our 7th edition scene here locally. We've had a single all the things tournament, including unbound lists, but I wasn't able to attend. I didn't see any ridiculous vitriol posted on our facebook group, so I'm assuming it went well. We also had another tournament that specified battle forged only, with all other things allowed, and it too did well in the attendance department. I think Orock, your problem came from players not the lists themselves. Folks out to push an agenda, such as "this totally sucks and I'll show you why", always find the way to do it. Could also be poor mission design if you could fight the battle, lose the mission, essentially, and still win the game.
I was just using mine as an example if people were wondering how one would go. I imagine with larger amounts of people, there will be more balanced armies AND cheese. But in the end I sincerely believe cheese lists like this will win the day every time, so are detrimental to a healthy game.
|
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/04 19:03:13
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
|
I think its more indicative of the type of players these people are in your local area. With any game there will be those that seek to bend the rules as much as possible.
We are having a similar tournament at GE-Pasadena next week. Although unbound is allowed it requires prior approval from the TO. We'll see how it goes.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/04 19:37:31
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Disguised Speculo
|
anything 7th legal (except forgeworld).
Phew, theres anything goes, and then utter insanity.
Disallowing forgeworld is what seperates us from the apes
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/04 20:50:45
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Trustworthy Shas'vre
|
Dakkamite wrote:anything 7th legal (except forgeworld).
Phew, theres anything goes, and then utter insanity.
Disallowing forgeworld is what seperates us from the apes
Its been said that the main reason was because the Shop couldn't sell Forgeworld, not with any problems or perceived imbalances. If its a Tournament run by a FLGS, its hard to fault them for disallowing something they can't sell.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 07:24:27
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
|
Zagman wrote: Dakkamite wrote:anything 7th legal (except forgeworld).
Phew, theres anything goes, and then utter insanity.
Disallowing forgeworld is what seperates us from the apes
Its been said that the main reason was because the Shop couldn't sell Forgeworld, not with any problems or perceived imbalances. If its a Tournament run by a FLGS, its hard to fault them for disallowing something they can't sell.
Guess that means Dataslates and Sisters are out as well then?
|
DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 08:16:47
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Janthkin wrote:
I'm curious about the missions used in this event; how does a 2 Transcendent C'tan list win on anything other than "I killed stuff"?
They don't. T-C'tan do not need to do anything else as they can easily deny entire areas and wipe units off the board. On top of that, it's incredibly easy to hide it behind terrain.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 09:37:17
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Disguised Speculo
|
I would expect the rules were taken directly, in an unmodified state, from the BRB.
Must have been a blast. "Get d3 victory points for doing anything" is a great equalizer - just move gak around the board for six turns (or four if they brought a C'Tan) and then see who the dice gods have blessed with victory.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 19:01:16
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
|
Oh there were missions, and objectives. All of which are pointless when all but 2 games ended in tabelings.
|
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 20:42:26
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Disguised Speculo
|
We had an anything goes tournament last weekend.
Last 40k event I saw had at least 40 people, this one... had three.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 23:45:14
Subject: My experience with my first anything goes 7th edition tournament (and BOY did it!)
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
Orock wrote:Oh there were missions, and objectives. All of which are pointless when all but 2 games ended in tabelings.
If it's any consolation, i heard from some of the local crowd that this tournament (being the first 7th ed) was left open for everyone to try to break 7th ed as hard as they could, before settling down to more normal play.
That said, certain individuals will STILL break 7th ed as hard as they can, but they can do that almost as hard within a regular FOC as they can in Unbound.
At least you'll have me to pummel unmercifully into the floor and nick me teef  If i'm playing my Orks i'm playing for fun, not for cheese
|
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
|
|
 |
 |
|