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 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.

A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.

Zero since it's already in Imperial Rule.

Case closed.

How would a single Space Marine seize an entire feral world? Assuming even that it is nothing but dirty, unorganized people with no ability to domesticate local fauna, how will a single Space Marine seize the entire thing? By the time he had killed every human in a given area and moved onto the next, the first area would probably have begun to repopulate. He could spend centuries going around murdering and simply need to move back to a previous area to refill the next generation of humans.

You also underestimate the ability for humans to figure out a way to kill a single space marine. Forget the logistical issues like him running out of bolted rounds pretty quickly.

How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?

Easily.

Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.

Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.

 PhillyT wrote:
How would a single Space Marine seize an entire feral world? Assuming even that it is nothing but dirty, unorganized people with no ability to domesticate local fauna, how will a single Space Marine seize the entire thing? By the time he had killed every human in a given area and moved onto the next, the first area would probably have begun to repopulate. He could spend centuries going around murdering and simply need to move back to a previous area to refill the next generation of humans.

You also underestimate the ability for humans to figure out a way to kill a single space marine. Forget the logistical issues like him running out of bolted rounds pretty quickly.

Alright dude, argue all you want. Not everything is killing and purging, they are innocent feral people in need of guidance. Read exactly what Furyou Miko just said and stop being such a tool.


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 Daba wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?

You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.

A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.

Zero since it's already in Imperial Rule.

Case closed.

Ok yes, you are soooo smart.

Do you have to take everything so litteral? Are you that incapable of being able to interpret and analyze data or are you just trying your best to find ways of making me look moronic? A world can open up in rebellion but for all intents and purposes it is still an Imperial world. It is obviously what I meant so read the question, use common sense and learn to interpret information. I am done trying to clarify for incompetent excuses.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?

Easily.

Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.

Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.

So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

Haha. They did in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

Haha. They did in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

In Tarkin's defense, he appears to be carrying the worst of GW's stated Space Marine fluff to its logical extreme. It has been stated that a single space marine dominate absurdly large areas.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?

Easily.

Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.

Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.

So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.

Ok, nothing is registering.

First of all, I believe the word used was "convert" not sieze.

Second of all, feral people are very close to being cavemen, not quite but close. Educational programs and ecclesiarchy classes will teach them all they need to know about the Imperium and common educational skills such as reading, writing and speaking properly. Then they will either be enlisted by the IG or turned into a SM.

In the case of becomimg a SM aspirant, once they are implanted with geneseed and wake up from the "great sleep" their brains will grow exponentionally and they will never be as dumb as they once were and they can become a scout.

Feral worlds are almost always left close to their current states because the harsh environments recruits come from can prove to be a pro rather than a con for training.

One SM can easily attract recruits from a feral world even so.


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 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

Haha. They did in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

What is your definition of feral? I seem to be at a loss.

Please educate me about how club weilding cavemen-adjacent people can possibly kill SM's?

A SM can fight daemons and battle Eldar yet they die to cavemen? That is absurd


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 PhillyT wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

Haha. They did in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

In Tarkin's defense, he appears to be carrying the worst of GW's stated Space Marine fluff to its logical extreme. It has been stated that a single space marine dominate absurdly large areas.

Depends. A marine can rape a feral world but wouldnt stand a chance in so much as a civilized world.

PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?

Easily.

Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.

Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.

So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.

No... who said anything about long range communication?

They're ferals. They have no strikeback capability and offer an appropriate tithe compared to their technology/population level. Even if 90% of the planet's population have never heard of the Imperium, as far as the Imperium is concerned, that world has been brought into compliance. It has been conquered by a single Astartes. If they one day refuse to give up an aspirant, then the Marine will kill a few tribesmen and bring the world back into compliance.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.

Haha no they can't

Well its in canon so yes they can. Lots of lances do that

 Desubot wrote:
Accidentally voted 10. but wanted 100

Id say 100 marines and a few regimens of IG would do the trick.

^^THIS You have done well sir.

I voted 1000 for the poll. The chapter will kill you, but not rule you. Need more for that.

Unless it is a trap setup by the dark eldar to play some games...

That would be a fun game for the DE.... bait an entire chapter to a planet for some reason, and RAPE THEIR SOULS HARD.

I would say about a company of standard codex marines with the proper imperial guard/navy support to establish bases and hold the captured ground maybe less for chapters such as the raven guard or white scars who could use hit and run over a long period of time to destabilize the planets people

I agree with most posters here.. It's too vague a question.. "Seize" to DA is kill the rulers grab what you came to get and leave them to their fate... In which case you could get away with a few squads if that..
Seize to an ultramarine would include injecting your own stabile government.. In which case half their chapter including great chunks of several other sub-chapters of theirs as well as 100s of companies of PDF from Ultramar would be required to finish the occupation within 10 years...

As others have mentioned, it's very vague. For starters, what do we claim is the standard Imperial Planet? Is it a industrial era planet, a modern tech planet and population planet, is it semi-advanced technology. What's the population? What's their best weapons? Does such a planet get their anti-space craft and air guns to be free to fire (which apparently are on quite a few and rather nasty)?

1, if the writer makes it so.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Nova_Sulis It would probably be kind of like this but not a hive world but it depends on the chapter and defenders. I vote 1,000.

Define "sieze a planet".


To take and hold a planet, IE, pacify or destroy its population? At least a hundred thousand; this is a time and manpower-demanding job, which Space Marines have never been suited to-- not even in their "glory days" as legions instead of chapters. To destroy a planet's military capacity? A thousand through ten thousand depending on how reliant they are on orbital bombardment and how ready the defenders are. Dismantling a planet's military capacity is a lot of work, but with orbital bombardment, it is a lot less manpower-demanding than the previous situation. To decapitate a planet's leadership and set it up for an Imperial Guard invasion? Ten to a hundred depending on the readiness of the defenders. This is easy to do, and it's the ideal purpose of Space Marine strike forces.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
To take and hold an Imperial world?

More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.

A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."

Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.

I also agree with this. I think the propaganda of Space Marines by themselves seizing/conquering planets, is just that, propaganda. In most of the "true accounts" of a battle the Imperial Guard are at least hinted to being there and needed for the pacification of any of the planets. The Space Marines always have and need the support of the other Imperial Forces, otherwise those forces wouldn't exist. The exploits of the Space Marines are just heralded more since they are genetically modified super soldiers called in when they are needed the most. Most planets that are conquered usually have Titans in those battles from the Ad Mech. There are aerial bombardments from the Imperial Navy. The Space Marines are specialists used to put pressure on key areas to win a planet.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?

Easily.

Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.

Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.

So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.

No... who said anything about long range communication?

They're ferals. They have no strikeback capability and offer an appropriate tithe compared to their technology/population level. Even if 90% of the planet's population have never heard of the Imperium, as far as the Imperium is concerned, that world has been brought into compliance. It has been conquered by a single Astartes. If they one day refuse to give up an aspirant, then the Marine will kill a few tribesmen and bring the world back into compliance.

So we are using very loose and most pointless terms? How would a single marine convert an entire planet into a recruiting world without that planets people being able to spread his message?

The entire idea is ridiculous and ignores human history. And if you aren't basing it off human history, there is nothing to base the thought experiment on in the first place.

SM are kind of like the Special Forces for the Imperium, they use the tactics of a very quick and bloody war in order to use their strengths to their full advantage. As a wise man once said "We cut the head off, and the rest of the body dies with it".
SM are used to quickly insert into the heart of the enemy and kill their acquired targets and then pull out, letting the Imperial Guard m up the rest of the Resistance.
Not since the Great Crusades have the SM had the full power to ever hold a planet, for a planet is just to large and sprawling for the super humans to hold, and since the GC they have lost so much manpower.

So to the original poster, it would take easily a SM task-force to take battle using their preferred method of fighting, but then they would quickly be re-deployed to the heaviest fighting in order so their strengths would be of use.

I voted for 1,000 SM....with the understanding that there is orbital domination and several million IG ready to exploit those SM tactical victories...

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:
I voted for 1,000 SM....with the understanding that there is orbital domination and several million IG ready to exploit those SM tactical victories...

-STS

Yes, thank you for being able to interpret the question.

I agree with 1,000 SM's. I'm fairly surprised anybody said 10 but haha oh well

It is possible with just 10. If the world is of low tech/if they help out a rebel faction/if the planet has a low population.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It is possible with just 10. If the world is of low tech/if they help out a rebel faction/if the planet has a low population.

Feral World most likely can be managed with a single squad. This is however a standard Imperial Civilized World. Probably 1,000 marines will be required to instill Imperial rule again


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone who doesn't know what a civilized world is look it up on warhammer40k.wikia or lexicanum.

In point of fact on the feral thing, the whole sequence people are referencing in the Ghosts series I always felt to be Abnett's jab at un-helmeted marines. The Chaos Marine in question gets his helmet knocked off, and pummelled with more poison than is reasonable.

On topic, it all depends on Guard support. I just ignore writers who have a single company invade planets; 100 bodies simply can't do enough alone to matter. Hell, with the exception of the Badab War, marines are almost never the primary striking force in a conflict in 40k, at least when written by anyone credible.

They're a force multiplier, and I think their strategic use was best characterized in Forgeworld's Siege of Vraks books. Marines show up, hit critical areas with rapid, unrelenting assault, cripple enemy defences, and the Death Korps takes care of the rest. The more Marines you apply to a warzone, the faster the war is over, but it is predicated on having the Imperial Guard present with sufficient force to capitalize on what Marines do. They're like any current special forces, strategically very useful, and are also idea for important skirmishes over VIPs, key resources, unsanctioned conflicts and so on, but aren't going to conquer anything alone.

This was even true in the Heresy era; the Marines are more of a shock elements in that period, rather than just special forces, but it's been a well-established part of the fluff for a long time that the Imperial Army was key to actually holding anything the Marines took as the Crusade spread further and further from Terra.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
In point of fact on the feral thing, the whole sequence people are referencing in the Ghosts series I always felt to be Abnett's jab at un-helmeted marines. The Chaos Marine in question gets his helmet knocked off, and pummelled with more poison than is reasonable.

On topic, it all depends on Guard support. I just ignore writers who have a single company invade planets; 100 bodies simply can't do enough alone to matter. Hell, with the exception of the Badab War, marines are almost never the primary striking force in a conflict in 40k, at least when written by anyone credible.

They're a force multiplier, and I think their strategic use was best characterized in Forgeworld's Siege of Vraks books. Marines show up, hit critical areas with rapid, unrelenting assault, cripple enemy defences, and the Death Korps takes care of the rest. The more Marines you apply to a warzone, the faster the war is over, but it is predicated on having the Imperial Guard present with sufficient force to capitalize on what Marines do. They're like any current special forces, strategically very useful, and are also idea for important skirmishes over VIPs, key resources, unsanctioned conflicts and so on, but aren't going to conquer anything alone.

This was even true in the Heresy era; the Marines are more of a shock elements in that period, rather than just special forces, but it's been a well-established part of the fluff for a long time that the Imperial Army was key to actually holding anything the Marines took as the Crusade spread further and further from Terra.

Pretty much this.

To "seize" a planet, yeah the marines by themselves would have an annoying grinder of a war, and lose some good assets of theirs. A setback for sure.

But to feth gak up? 1000 will do just fine.

I feel this thread is vague and fruitless

A hundred to crush major opposition and destabilise a world(destroy leadership and key infrastructure)
A thousand to crush almost all opposition (destroying a world's military)
100.000 to actually conquer and hold, pacify and garrison a world.

 changerofways wrote:
I feel this thread is vague and fruitless

Well a lot of that can be attributed to the OP, who has hand waved away many a sensible responses and has three times now made insulting remarks towards people in this thread.

By the way Tarkin, breaking the forum rules is an effective way of getting a thread locked, or a nice ban. So be smart and tone down the bad attitude before something bad happens.