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ced1106 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
You, or no one else, have seen a case where "Early Bird" pledge slots 'worked'?

Really?

Those are also some pretty...interesting claims about the campaigns listed.

I'm detecting a bit of...bias in these statements!

Well, none of you guys have shown me any research or conclusions by experienced KS project managers.

I mean, there's the anecdotal evidence of all the KSes that have EBs that have done over $700K....

Personally, I think the outcry about the EBs is absurd. If a trivial price difference is that much to a backer (and yes, $10 is trivial), then I have to question whether or not one should really be spending their money on the KS in the first place. I'm sure there's some nonsense about principle that one could claim, but it's like complaining I got gas on Thursday for $2.00 a gallon and on Saturday you had to pay $2.20 a gallon at the same station.

Well, I pledged for over 1K for KS plus maybe half that for holiday shopping and other online sales. So multiple $10's add up -- enough to pledge for another $100 KS.

Yes, we're talking about money again.

ced1106 wrote:
Well, I pledged for over 1K for KS plus maybe half that for holiday shopping and other online sales. So multiple $10's add up -- enough to pledge for another $100 KS.

Yes, we're talking about money again.

So....your explanation is that you can't spend $10 more on one thing because you bought too many other things?

Thats...that's a tough pill for me to swallow with a straight face.

And that, of course, completely ignores TVM, which makes it even funnier that people are complaining about saving $10 on an EB.

I still plan to back this... but it took me reading 3 pages of posts trying to figure out "EB" meant "Early Bird"

The outrage over EB seems absurd

Carlovonsexron wrote:
The outrage over EB seems absurd

Agreed, I find it baffling. I think it adds evidence to my theory that a lot of people don't view Kickstarter as buying a product, but buying an "experience." It seems the only explanation for why people would get so worked up about a $10 no exclusives EB. They are missing out on being the special snowflake who was there from the beginning, getting an EB puts you in the "in" crowd of commenters on the project. It lets you make casual threats to drop your EB in the project comments if the creators aren't instantly responding to your messages on FB or the latest stretch goal doesn't do it for you. Getting an Early Bird pledge makes you the hipster. "Dude, I was into this project like waaay before it was so mainstream."

 cincydooley wrote:
So....your explanation is that you can't spend $10 more on one thing because you bought too many other things?

No. By looking for the best prices, I can buy more things. Save $10 enough times, and you can buy something for $100.

 Ken Oakley wrote:
I have been reading all of these posts and I'm personally getting tired of the negative posts. I'm excited about the game and the miniatures and don't appreciate the negativity of one person on here. As stated, you don't have to support the game, just move on and let the rest of us be excited.

Well said! It happens in many threads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
January 12 may be the first time I get in on a Kickstarter.

There are lots of things I am conscientious about as a consumer; I won't buy from McDonalds, after reading an article about working conditions in their factories making kid's meals toys, or from Amazon UK because of their tax avoidance. I have a friend who buys Nokia phones, because their's are one of the only phones that have elements that are not sourced from the war-torn Congo. Another who won't buy Gilette razors because of their massively sanctimonious dropping of sponsorship of Tiger Woods ( )

I guess how far up this scale you see '$10 early bird' is down to the individual. Although, I would probably put it underneath even the last one!

 Genoside07 wrote:
I still plan to back this... but it took me reading 3 pages of posts trying to figure out "EB" meant "Early Bird"

Indeed, and not Electronics Boutique!

I think what it helps to understand about Early Bird pledge levels is that it is a level of annoyance on top of other annoyances. Lots of people feel like they are getting taken for a ride on Kickstarter. They feel suspicious of the motivations of the project creators, and they know that they are giving up a lot in order to be part of a Kickstarter campaign.

With Kickstarters like Conan here, where there is a comparatively huge amount of investment into the product, when the product has already been 'finished' and is basically being pre-sold, when we all know it will see regular retail release whether we back the project or not, when there has been a large amount of pre-campaign marketing, and so forth, the 'experience' in backing the campaign is not so much about being part of making something possible, but in getting the sweetest deal you can in order to offset the downsides of backing a Kickstarter campaign.

For many people, consciously or not, that is the experience, because you know all of those things going in. You are being sold to, you are being sold to aggressively. You are being encouraged to get in early, do it now, don't wait to evaluate the product, do it now, pay now, buy now, look at all this stuff, get excited, pay now, pay now, look at how many people are doing it, look at what they are getting, you are going to miss out, you are going to kick yourself later, buy now... And you know that Early Bird pledge levels are part of that marketing schill. However you slice it, they are designed to help encourage an impulse purchase, they are designed to help short circuit your consumer wariness.

So going in, even the concept of Early Bird pledge levels leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths. Without explaining any of that, people can seize on and complain about something more tangible, like not getting the $10 discount, or feeling like they need to waste their time refreshing the website to get in quickly, or feeling like they need to get up at an odd hour of the day/night to even have a chance to be part of something that is being marketed to them.

From a broad perspective, Early Bird pledge levels are an aspect of these types of Kickstarter campaigns that are easier to complain about, but in my view, the consternation is about a lot more than merely an EB pledge level.

Just wondering if it would be better to move debate about Early Birds to it's own topic in Dakka Discussions?

Maybe leave this thread to news about the product?

 Alex C wrote:
Just wondering if it would be better to move debate about Early Birds to it's own topic in Dakka Discussions?

Maybe leave this thread to news about the product?

Possibly. It is an issue that applies to lots of Kickstarter projects, and is not terribly specific to this particular project.

Yeh I think this woudl make for a great thread unto itself. I certainly would feel a lot less inhibited about my own remarks if I do not feel i am derailing someone else's marketing thread.


I have to agree with Weeble on this. EB's are just a manipulation to get over the first funding goal quickly so the creators can get you to then adjust your pledge upward to " unlock " the first stretch goals.

weeble1000 wrote:
I think what it helps to understand about Early Bird pledge levels is that it is a level of annoyance on top of other annoyances. Lots of people feel like they are getting taken for a ride on Kickstarter. They feel suspicious of the motivations of the project creators, and they know that they are giving up a lot in order to be part of a Kickstarter campaign.

Have you considered that types of Kickstarter projects and you might just not be a good fit? And potential big projects in particular just seem to piss you off. You seem to have came into the thread with a massive chip on your shoulder. You've complained about the material, you've complained about the mechanics, you've complained about the 10 measly bucks off for EB's (out of, wha,t a $200 game?). You're looking for conspiracy theories everywhere, and admit you're doing so partly to talk yourself out of pledging. You've basically said to the project creators "I dont really want your sucky game so twist my arm to get me in" and when they declined, you griped about that. You're the definition of "unpleasable fan base" in regards to this product. No wants to court that in the crucial early phase of a campaign, because then you'd be threadcrapping in the comments section and bringing the negativity there.

Seriously, we direct people to other threads when they bring up Maelstrom in the Mierce thread because its nonproductive. Can we take the"ethics" of Kickstarter to another thread? Kickstarter is far from perfect. But it is a way to get product development moving along faster, even for things that would be produced eventually on their own (such as Reaper Bones line, faster expansions for Shadows of Brimstone, etc). So yes, there is a benefit to running a campaign even with everything sculpted and the rules written (because it adds supplemental material quicker). Some of us might actually want to talk about the game.

Wow. My interest just dropped off.

 tre manor wrote:

I have to agree with Weeble on this. EB's are just a manipulation to get over the first funding goal quickly so the creators can get you to then adjust your pledge upward to " unlock " the first stretch goals.

And Black Friday doorbusters are an incentive to get you into the store and potentially buy other items before you spend your money at another store. That's how marketing works. Large Kickstarter campaigns run on early hype, and many people won't back an unfunded project (even though they don't lose your money if it doesn't fund). So there's a huge benefit to making funding first day or early enough for others to jump in.

Compare two Antimatter Games projects, The Good the Bad and the Scaly, which didnt fund, to the Rise of the Draconids, which did. The first however had a funding goal of $10,000, the second of $3000. The second, however, was smaller in scope, and built the additional faction starters by piecemeal. But because it funded quicker, it ended up with roughly than twice the total (and 30% more backers). The projects ultimately unlocked roughly the same figures, but funding sooner certainly helped the momentum of the follow up campaign. I will point out, that neither project had early birds. IMO, the benefit of EB's is to fund quickly by encouraging the type of backer that fence sits to jump in before its funded because there's a greater financial benefit for doing so. Ideally, they're handed out if you pledge on the first day, rather than having X units, to avoid screwing over different time zones.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/524168246/shadowsea-mini-kicker-the-good-the-bad-and-the-sca?ref=nav_search
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/524168246/rise-of-the-draconids?ref=nav_search

But really, we're talking 10 bucks, as opposed to Wyrd's through the Breach campaign where you missed out on multiple exclusive figures if you didn't pledge the first day.

Bossk, have you read my posts?

I believe I said candidly just a day or so ago in this thread that I could be touchy about this particular campaign because I do not like these types of Kickstarter campaigns and am subconsciously looking for an excuse to not back it.

So...yes, I have considered that.

I am a huge Howard fan, love his Conan works, really enjoy Adrian's artwork, and like to play co-op board games. So I am very excited about this project. I just wish it wasn't on Kickstarter.

I mentioned aspects of the rules that I found concerning, and engaged in a rather productive dialog about it. I like game mechanics, I design games myself, I play a lot of games, and this game looks interesting. So I want to know more about the game and the way it works. I don't want to put a couple hundred into a game I won't like. And the material is a concern because until recently we did not know what it was going to be. I think many of the models are fantastic, and was excited about high fidelity casts, but now we know that they are going to be PVC, which demands MUCH more scrutiny.

I don't want to drop $200 thinking I'm going to get X and wind up getting Y. Fred has directly said he doesn't want that. And I have not demanded ANY change to the campaign or the product. I simply want to know what I would be getting into. Part of that involves evaluating the creators, because I don't know Fred from Adam.

But if y'all want to keep this thread focused on news, I already said I would leave it be unless people were interested in discussing things further. So if that's what you want, I've already said I'm happy to do that.

weeble1000 wrote:
Bossk, have you read my posts?

I believe I said candidly just a day or so ago in this thread that I could be touchy about this particular campaign because I do not like these types of Kickstarter campaigns and am subconsciously looking for an excuse to not back it.

So...yes, I have considered that.

The question was mainly rhetorical, and I indicated I was aware you don't like them.

I am a huge Howard fan, love his Conan works, really enjoy Adrian's artwork, and like to play co-op board games. So I am very excited about this project. I just wish it wasn't on Kickstarter.

Well... it is (or will be shortly). So that ship has essentially sailed. At this point I'm reminded of the old joke

Patient - "Doctor, it hurts my arm when I do this" *flails arm spastically*

Doctor "Easy cure... Don't do that"

If its bothering you, just stay out of the campaign. If it hits retail, and gets good reviews, hey, great, Maybe consider buying at that point. Because lets face it. If its a big campaign, the ship date's gonna slip, there's going to be some mold issue, a stretch goal is probably going to be poorly priced, etc. Do you really want to deal with that when you have to hold your nose to pledge on kickstarter in the first place? I can't help but thing that would be less stressful.

Edit - just saw your edits, and I agree. If anyone wants to start a new thread, I'd be happy to jump in. Sorry for dragging this even more off toping by pointing out how off topic its gotten lol.

I really think that the Ethics of Kickstarter and/or Early Bird Pledges really does need to move to a separate thread now.

Probably Dakka Discussions would be the best fit.

Thanks!

EB that are cheaper is absolutely fine with me, it's KS that have tons of exclusives i detest, one or two is fine.

Wow, I leave the room for 48 hours and Pandora's box seems to of sprung open!

weeble1000 wrote:

So does this mean you are planning on a Kickstarter business model for Monolith?

In no way, shape, or form.

Monolith is still a young company, I am but a humble community manager and I can't speak for the higher ups but what I will personally say is that I believe a lot of Monolith's future will be decided by Conan and as Fred said above, a KS is a LOT of work (no, seriously) and if Conan works out well they may not have to go through it for their next project (This is what I meant by Project: The game, not the KS, but I should of been more precise about that).

weeble1000 wrote:
Attitudes like that really piss me off. Companies that don't want my money don't get my money.

I'm going to ask both parties to chill out here, I understand where you're both coming from but I don't think you guys do. I know you've stated you don't believe it's a language thing but let me say this: It is. I've known the guy long enough to know this is not his kind of attitude, Fred wanted to try and put as much effort into communicating in English as he does in French (where he is very present, to the point that I nearly never have to intervene on French forums). To me it's an admirable effort but his English is lacking and it does sometimes create touchy misunderstandings like this.

That being said this is what Fred is really trying to say:

We don't want your money for the sake of your money. We want you to want "The Game" and invest in it just like we have invested 2 years of work into it. If you are that fussed about 10$ that you would intentionally miss out on the already amazing stuff we have planned for you (trust me, I've seen the pledge levels, this game is a steal) then you're obviously not the kind of person that would of bought the game anyway. We're not turning people away because they don't agree with us, they are turning themselves away and sadly there's very little we can do about that apart from just moving on.

weeble1000 wrote:
I really hate a 'don't like it, don't buy it' attitude. Same thing with the game mechanics discussion that I have been getting a bit of from Jamie.

Ummm, I'm not sure where this came from but, Ok. My posts were never meant to promote this kind of attitude. We are well aware that you can't please anyone (want an example? go to our BGG page, there's a guy who gave us a score of 1 because we're "not Heroquest") but we have tried to please as many as possible. That being said if I did come across such I apologise, my words were simply meant to positively construct our point of view, not bash yours or those who do not agree.

weeble1000 wrote:
Anyone at Monolith want to back that up with some numbers?

Sure!

Artwork: $50,000 (Adrian Smith, Brom, Paolo Parente, Kekai Kotaki, Georges Clarenko, Xavier Colette, Naïade and others I can't name yet)
Scenarios: $30,000 (Antoine Bauza, Ludovic Maublanc, Croc, Bruno Cathala, Laurent Pouchain, Pascal Bernard and others I can't name yet)
Sculpting and tooling: $80,000 (Stéphane Simon, Jacques-Alexandre Gillois, Thomas David, Mikh, Stéphane N'Guyen, Aragorn Marks, Yannick Hennebo, Arnaud Boudoiron, Gregory Clavilier, Elfried, Rafal Zelazo, Gael Goumon and others I can't name yet)
Licence: $40,000 plus royalties

So as you can see, its a fair amount of investment. Why am I dropping names though? Because its important to highlight that these people aren't cheap but they deserve every penny. Every single one of them is an industry veteran with many games, models or projects under their belt. Why do I say this? Because it relates back to what we wanted Conan to be: a blockbuster and we couldn't do that without having the best of the best on board. Now I get the idea from your comments that you don't really like this kind of project and all the bells and whistles that it entails (communication, publicity, etc) but it is what it is. Now all of that money was invested by the good people of Monolith, from their own pocket. There is no business angel, no silent partner, just a huge amount of cash that they have had to fork out, in advance, to see their dream become a reality. As such I'm going to ask for a bit of leniency if they seem touchy or on-edge this close to the campaign. You have to understand they each personally have a lot riding on this. That's how they wanted it however, say what you will but with a project this big and this ambitious Kickstarter is THE means to an end. I could go a lot more into it (and am more than happy to do so if needs be) but as others have said, it's a topic best left for another thread. What I can assure you is that we've gone into it fully concious of what it entails and with our own set of principles. Their are many who disagree with us and by the time my keyboard cools down in just over a months time there will no doubt be many more but we will stick to our guns and do what we first set out to do.

Now then, about this whole money situation. This is where we really go down the rabbit hole to the magical land of misunderstanding. Once again this goes both ways and whilst I'm on the matter I will be having words with Fred so this kind of thing doesn't happen again but as I said before, Fred would never go out of his way to insult anyone, this is just a bit of stress before the big game.

First of all I'm going to be firm with you here Weeble. You can ask people for this kind of information, but in no case should you hold it against them is they choose not to respond. That is VERY sensitive information that is the core of someone's business. I'm sure if I asked you to divulge all the inner workings of your personal affairs you'd be pretty uncomfortable too. I've shared with you what numbers I can (also note that we have been very open about the money we have invested for some time now too) and I think most people here would find that fairlydecent of us but I will not reply to your other absurd demands. It's a stupid thing to ask of any business and you have to remember that Monolith is a business. I feel that this is the part that was the most "lost in translation" as they say however actually thinking that they intend to make no money off of a game is very naïve. With all the good will in the world, and I can assure you Monolith has a lot of that, there are salaries to pay, rent, food for their cats, etc. Is this an exercise in cheap money grubbing though? No. We just want to get the game of our dreams our their and any money made will no doubt go into developing the company so that we can make even more games like this. I don't have a clue how much money Fred stands to personally make out of this but knowing him it will probably be just enough to cover what he invested and the rest will go to the company.

That being said though you do of course have a right to know who you are dealing with! and that of course we have no problems sharing with you. If you want to see more on Bombyx (the other company of one of the guys who runs Monolith) then you can go here http://www.studiobombyx.com/accueil_eng.html or here http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamepublisher/19260/bombyx . If you want more info on Fred: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/2617/frederic-henry . Both of them have a lot of very successful games to their name and I will personally attest to the fact that they are in this for the games, not for the money.

As you quoted Kickstarter, let me quote the text that you'lll find on our Ks page:

Apart from being huge fans of Conan and Robert E. Howard, we have been working in the gaming industry for many years now. Frédéric Henry is the author behind some incredibly successful games such as The Adventurers, TimeLine, CardLine and The Builders. Erwan and Loig Hascoët are the founders of Bombyx, a respected publishing company with many great games in their catalogue such as Takenoko, The Builders and Abyss. Monolith was created so that we could make the game of our dreams: Conan. HeroQuest was a big part of our gaming culture as kids and we wanted to recreate the joy and immersion we felt for that game back then. For us, Conan was the perfect licence to bring these feelings to the tabletop once again, remastered in a modern game that drew from all the best advancements in art, sculpture and game play. So as to stay as true to Robert E. Howard as possible, we brought Patrice Louinet on board, a world renowned expert in this author's work. This gives us a degree of authenticity that is almost unheard of in a product like this. Patrice has approved all the contents of the standard and deluxe box sets as well as all of the stretch goals. Patrice ensuring authenticity for anything REH, but the game will also take inspiration from some non-canon areas which were mentioned by Robert E. Howard but not fully developed. However, we have always emphasised on keeping the spirit of Howard's work in mind whilst under the strict supervision of Paradox Entertainment, owners of the Conan property. We have strived to bring only the best, world renowned experts on board with Conan.

And also our "Why Kickstarter?" section:

Conan has had a lot more money invested in it than the majority of board games. The fabrication costs are also very high due to the sheer amount of material contained within the box: Multiple large gaming boards, a plastic control tile, as well a huge amount of high quality plastic models. If we were to apply the margins of a classic development cycle, the cost of the box set and the stretch goals would be far too high, around $250. The process of desintermediation that is inherent to Kickstarter allows us to reduce this price down to something far more manageable and in line with other large board games. It also allows us to take the product directly to our target audience.

Now of course that won't answer every question but I feel its a pretty good start. Plus I'm always here if people want to know something more specific and there's even more on the KS page including a full list of all the participants (with links to their respective pages) as well as a very complete description of our shipping and refund policy, which I think you will find more than fair. A bit off topic I know but I thought I'd mention it as someone else brought it up.

Finally, the reason I'm calling you out like this Weeble, is because I think you've somehow picked up the wrong end of the stick here and, due to your exchanges with Fred I'll admit, turned a non-existent molehill into a mountain, a statement that others have expressed. As such you have tried to discredit the name of Monolith and a personal friend of mine, something I cannot brook, hence my tone. Do not misunderstand me, I am not fobbing you off, trying to personally insult you nor expecting you to not respond to this. I am simply setting a very misleading point straight for the benefit of others who may be interested in this project. If you do however have any more queries concerning the rules, the models or Monolith's work then I am more then happy to discuss them. Whilst we're being honest, I very much enjoyed discussing the rules with you but I suggest we put this whole rant about the inner business workings, Kickstarter theories and EB's behind us. If you really want to discuss that then please take it to another thread.

Right, now we've got that ugly business out of the way, on to some more interesting stuff!

 Alex C wrote:
My wife just noticed that even Conan's knee has abs...

And you would be right my friend, they do indeed! Don't worry it's intentionally over exaggerated to accommodate for PVC shrinkage. Same goes for that incredibly manly 18 pack (that are actually just his ribs). What you have in that photo is one of the original resin recasts.

 cincydooley wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Quite the 18-pack that Conan has there...

Inevitably with an impossible to clean mould line running down the side of it. Thanks PVC.

I've had plenty of luck cleaning mould lines off of PVC models from multiple companies, with relative ease.

I'll echo this, I've never had any trouble with cleaning mould lines off pvc. I just received a early batch of Journey: Wrath of Demons models which are of a superb quality and the very few mould lines I could find on them came off very easily.


I think I got most of them there, but there was quite a lot so if I missed someone's question then please feel free to flag it up! Otherwise continue to fire away, I will be here as always

J.

Any info on pledge levels and prices?

A lot of information has been summarized in this thread on Board Game Geek, though it was made a while ago and may be somewhat outdated:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1282068/conan-fan-made-description-and-faq

Here is what it says about the two planned pledge levels, though again this may have changed somewhat in the meantime:

The retail game : around $80-$100, 2 boards (4 maps, at least 8 scenarios), 50 to 60 minis.
The deluxe game : around $120-$150, this box will only be available through Kickstarter. It will include the same content than the base box, plus 2 exclusive heroes, around 30 exclusives minions (undeads), 1 exclusive boss (Thog) and scenarios.

I'm still kinda leery about licensed projects after the AvP debacle.

Also wary of first-time projects after being burned/disappointed by several.

DM requirement is also a bummer for me.

Great component quality though.

Doubt I'll be backing but good luck anyway!

 WhelpSlayer wrote:
You can ask people for this kind of information, but in no case should you hold it against them is they choose not to respond. That is VERY sensitive information that is the core of someone's business.

I get that Jamie. That's what I meant when I said that it probably would not be offered. I should have also mentioned that there are good reasons for not offering that level of detail.

I appreciate the other information that you have supplied. I will, however, say that the loss of rights/protections via Kicstarter really goes both ways, and the kind of information a business operating within the 'normal development cycle' can well expect to keep proprietary/confidential is much more fair game in a crowdfunding scenario. Backers are "helping to create new things," as opposed to "buying something from a store," and because Kickstarter "doesn’t evaluate a project’s claims, resolve disputes, or offer refunds," backers are expected to independently evaluate the project creator. Whether or not you can deliver what you claim is a pretty critical evaluation in this context, as I think you will agree.

In a retail context, there's often no question about whether you can deliver, because the product is in hand, and if you don't deliver, the purchaser has explicit recourse. Here, the collective experience Monolith has is significant, but how much experience does the company have with operating via crowdfunding?

So while I did request very sensitive information, the fact is that you are claiming to offer a $250 retail product for $80-$100. That's around a 60% discount, which sounds like an aggressive distributor discount. If you will forgive a bit of pot-stirring, a claim like that should provoke questions about the viability of the project. And if you will forgive my impertinence, it is Monolith who has made that claim, which happens to be broadly in line with Fred's statements.

I really don't want to be disrespectful, but you guys are the ones saying these things. And you are also consistently saying "plastic" in referring to the miniatures, when that terminology is known to be contextually misleading. Surely you know the potential for confusion involved in using unspecific terms like that in this market, right? Again, these are choices you guys are making in your efforts to market this product. "Plastic" is a buzz word that you are using deliberately. But we know that you don't mean "High Impact Polystyrene."

You can easily come back with an explanation for why using the word "plastic" is not a material misrepresentation, but at the end of the day, it is walking the line between honesty and misrepresentation. And come on, you know that too, don't you?

Thanks for the very informative response WhelpSlayer. I'm very much looking forward to this one.

 endtransmission wrote:
Thanks for the very informative response WhelpSlayer. I'm very much looking forward to this one.

Seconded - Always appreciate creators showing up and answering questions!

Gentlemen.

 Alex C wrote:
Any info on pledge levels and prices?

Oh man I REALLY want to say something about this but upon my honour I cannot, all I can say is that I have of course seen all the pledges and let me tell you that they a choc-a-block with gear and they are a lot cheaper than you would expect!

 Alex C wrote:
I'm still kinda leery about licensed projects after the AvP debacle.

We were too, which is why we spent over $40,000 acquiring the full rights to the brand (as specified above) so I can assure you there will be no such troubles here.

 Alex C wrote:
Also wary of first-time projects after being burned/disappointed by several.

Well I can't deny that, as Monolith, this is their first project however this is not the first game that they've made/published together. They know what they are up against.

weeble1000 wrote:
I get that Jamie. That's what I meant when I said that it probably would not be offered. I should have also mentioned that there are good reasons for not offering that level of detail.

I appreciate the other information that you have supplied. I will, however, say that the loss of rights/protections via Kicstarter really goes both ways, and the kind of information a business operating within the 'normal development cycle' can well expect to keep proprietary/confidential is much more fair game in a crowdfunding scenario. Backers are "helping to create new things," as opposed to "buying something from a store," and because Kickstarter "doesn’t evaluate a project’s claims, resolve disputes, or offer refunds," backers are expected to independently evaluate the project creator. Whether or not you can deliver what you claim is a pretty critical evaluation in this context, as I think you will agree.

In a retail context, there's often no question about whether you can deliver, because the product is in hand, and if you don't deliver, the purchaser has explicit recourse. Here, the collective experience Monolith has is significant, but how much experience does the company have with operating via crowdfunding?

So while I did request very sensitive information, the fact is that you are claiming to offer a $250 retail product for $80-$100. That's around a 60% discount, which sounds like an aggressive distributor discount. If you will forgive a bit of pot-stirring, a claim like that should provoke questions about the viability of the project. And if you will forgive my impertinence, it is Monolith who has made that claim, which happens to be broadly in line with Fred's statements.

I really don't want to be disrespectful, but you guys are the ones saying these things. And you are also consistently saying "plastic" in referring to the miniatures, when that terminology is known to be contextually misleading. Surely you know the potential for confusion involved in using unspecific terms like that in this market, right? Again, these are choices you guys are making in your efforts to market this product. "Plastic" is a buzz word that you are using deliberately. But we know that you don't mean "High Impact Polystyrene."

You can easily come back with an explanation for why using the word "plastic" is not a material misrepresentation, but at the end of the day, it is walking the line between honesty and misrepresentation. And come on, you know that too, don't you?

As much as I do enjoy our verbal jousting, I honestly can't help but feel that after all this you really are out for Monolith's blood. I may just be imagining things but anyway, I digress.

weeble1000 wrote:
Give me the numbers, all of the numbers.

No. Don't try to back peddle out of this. You specifically demanded sensitive information, including details about an individual's personal earnings, multiple times, without showing any signs of saying "that it probably would not be offered" (not that saying such a thing makes a blind bit of difference). That, sir, is not on.

As for creator/pledger protection, yes, it does go both ways. In the current situation, should things fail, Monolith stand's to lose a lot more then anyone else. No member of the public needs to worry about loosing their money thanks to the comprehensive "no questions" refund policy we are running (you can read more about that on our KS page soon). As stated before though, a lot of money has been invested into this, money I'm sure people would like to see returned eventually as well as the fact that the name of Monolith and all its collaborators, myself included, are attached to this. Now let me tell you something about myself: I'm not going to put my own name to a project if I don't think it's going to succeed or if the people behind it are incompetent.

Speaking of which, no, the guys behind Monolith don't have any experience with Kickstarter however I, and the rest of the consultants they have brought on board, do. Between us we actually have an awful lot of Kickstarter experience.

I don't really want to discuss figures again, however I will say one thing: Distributor margins. You seem like a smart guy, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Now we can get to the thing I take personal offence at. You are actually implying that I am attempting to obscure and mislead the gaming community by using the word plastic? I have written the acronym "PVC" so many times on this forum and others recently I think I may of worn those letters off my keyboard. I have tirelessly been telling people about the pros and cons of PVC compared to other materials, I've even made a point of comparing ours to other known PVC ranges. I don't think anyone here would agree that I am trying to tell them our models are anything but PVC. That being said, here's my "explanation for why using the word "plastic" is not a material misrepresentation": PVC IS plastic. Outside of the modelling community, the 99% probably doesn't know the difference between PVC, Hard plastic or restic. So am I comfortable using the term plastic in a general sense? Yes. If anyone then wants to discuss the precise details about it then, as I have proven many times above, I am more then happy to discuss it. So to answer your question:

weeble1000 wrote:
you know that too, don't you?

No mate, I don't. I actually have a thing called dignity which generally stops me from outwardly lying to or manipulating people like that, which is actually what you may be trying to do with such a statement, but as I said above: I may be imagining things.


That aside, Thank you for the encouragement guys, keep the questions coming

You're doing an awfully good job of tempting me Whelpslayer

If nothing else I'll be watching with interest. My willpower is weak...

I don't have to walk away from anything Jamie. This is what I wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Obviously, no one at Monolith is going to discuss the bulk of that, or at least not in any detail.

But if you are going to make bold claims without putting any meat on them, I am absolutely going to rhetorically demand that you "show me the numbers." Your response is to say that you can't show the numbers but that we should take your word for it. Fair enough, but for some people, your word just isn't going to be good enough.

Plenty of successful project creators across the breadth of Kickstarter have discussed the business side of their projects in far more depth than Monolith has been willing to do, so it is also not without precedent.

As for the plastic thing, you might be saying PVC here, after folks asked about it, but your Kickstarter page is going to be saying "plastic." As I predicted, your response was to say that PVC is plastic, which is certainly true, as I mentioned in my post. But that statement you quoted from the Kickstarter page describes both a "plastic control tile" and "plastic models." They aren't both made of the same type of plastic, are they?

You can say 'It's simpler to just say plastic because lots of people don't know the difference.' But that's the point, isn't it? People don't know the difference and have different ideas about what the word "plastic" means. And to a large segment of the potential backers you are marketing to, the word "plastic" does have a rather specific connotation. I am saying that this is something you are most likely well aware of.

Look, my overall point is that you folks at Monolith are following a formula, a formula that tends to put form over substance. Describing your models as "high quality plastic" is part of that formula because terms like "PVC" or "vinyl" tend to have some negative associations. I personally don't think that's a choice you are making for the sake of clarity. I'm not saying that you haven't been willing to describe your models as being manufactured in PVC. All I am saying is that on the front of your Kickstarter page you have decided to to use the phrase "high quality plastic," most likely because it sounds better.

Be honest. Sometimes it’s tempting to “sell” your project with a glossy pitch and assurances that the work will be easy. But backers can trust you much more when you’re being straightforward and honest. Give them a real look at the work you’re doing, and be frank about the risks and challenges involved.

It comes with the platform Jamie. I don't need a "real look" at what a retail business is doing when I am buying something off the shelf. You guys chose to use Kickstarter instead of taking a portion of your rather significant upfront funds and putting the product on the market. So you don't really have room to complain when somebody wants to look under the hood.