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XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

It's not even close to a troll really. A troll posts inflammatory or off topic remarks in the hopes of getting an emotional response and/or derailing everything.

That and it sounds very flawed to go hey, if you don't like it just get out entirely. Most individuals liked the game, most would play it if it didn't have so many drawbacks. For example, I'm critical of 40k. It's flawed, the rules are atrocious, they never get improved, the prices are, frankly, ridiculous, it has day one DLC, cheap tactics to fool people into buying wastes, has unequal pricing especially against Australians, has been known for senseless sues that cripple the most minor of individuals (Space Marine), and punish players for some company that produced models for units they didn't sell. So what do they do? Remove them from existence entirely. FLGS, they make it more difficult. That by no means doesn't equal it being nonredeemable. The fluff of the world, although contradictory, grimderp, and goofy, is unique in how they literally grabbed everything and mashed them all together. Despite there being four codices that are basically the same thing with 6 being SM of some form and with 7 wearing Power Armour, it has a vast diversity still. The models are customize-able and, more often than not, look good. The setting has such traction that I purchased the RPG books and simply make up stories to play in the future. Really, there's a lot to love. There is also, however, a lot to hate.

As per myself, I'm caught in that point where I'm not sure what to do. My last buttons have been pressed and I'm upset at GW for a variety of reasons, I'm expanding to other wargames, yet I can't seem to let go 40k. If I play again I probably will tear apart the rules and codices and rebuild it with my group because I admit, the chances of GW trying to improve anything is very slim yet if I continue with the rules I'll be picking armies that are so horrendous that I basically hand the victory to my enemy which is frankly dull. I hate all the randomness. I want to forge the narrative but in a way where two players build a list fitting their own fluff and then clash, fighting violently util the end. No tables until turn 5 or 6, hard fought, tense. Those are my favorite games. Those are the ones I want to write about. Not my KSons being stomped again but aha I obviously had a secret objective. And, as mentioned, I bloody love the fluff so I enjoy that part All that said, while I like 40k, I will not endorse GW.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

Again cannot speak for others, but I don't consider it "propaganda" to tell a prospective player the pros and cons of starting 40k. I tell people who ask about starting 40k to understand that it's rather poorly written (as far as rules go), ranges from overpowered to outright garbage depending on what you play and what you want to field so you typically need to research unless you want to risk picking the wrong unit that "looks cool" but plays badly, and costs several hundred dollars to start at a reasonable level beyond trivial demo games. I also point out the rich lore, the feel/flavor of the armies and the models, and the fact that 40k can be lots of fun if you play in a meta that embraces it as a fun game and not a competitive one. However, I also point out the flaws of the rules and how other games are much more enjoyable to play, are generally quicker and often cost less at least at the early stages.

That's not "trolling" to me, that's giving somebody the information they need to decide if the pros of 40k outweigh the cons.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

Scroll up a bit, we already had that discussion. Page 4, I believe.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

SO are you saying we should be happy regardless for the sake of being happy?

you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

That's a terrible stance. If the company won't listen to your issue, rather than discussing it like reasonable adults in a forum, you should drop the game entirely and forget it ever happened? That some how a player can't comment in the forum about a system they used to enjoy and explain why they left in a relevant thread?

if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game

There is a difference between giving someone the information to make an informed opinion and chasing them from the store with pitchforks. If I say that I don't enjoy the game because Tau went from being a bottom tier army to what people consider an overpowered nightmare and don't want to play because of my army choice and that this happens for lots of people when their dex gets updated, is that giving my opinion on the current situation or am I running them out of the store?

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.
I

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

Outside of this bubble Dakka has a worse reputation than GW, I never knew why until I started reading these threads. It is mostly the same handful of people that haven't even attempted to play 40k in years, that hate 40k that they're not playing and are upset at GW for not listening to their valued opinions.

Hating GW is fine with me, but preventing new players from starting is not in my book.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.
I

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

Outside of this bubble Dakka has a worse reputation than GW, I never knew why until I started reading these threads. It is mostly the same handful of people that haven't even attempted to play 40k in years, that hate 40k that they're not playing and are upset at GW for not listening to their valued opinions.

Hating GW is fine with me, but preventing new players from starting is not in my book.

And you keep going on and on about how horrible Dakka is. Why are you here?
And how is it disgusting to steer a new player to a better game that will be cheaper and more enjoyable?

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

Scroll up a bit, we already had that discussion. Page 4, I believe.

I read it, but it doesn't really change anything.

The only barrier to entry for most people is the price point. I think everyone can agree on that point. Beyond that, however, is entirely personal experience and preference.

Instead of telling someone they shouldn't get into 40k, and then following to cite opinions (not facts) about rules, balance, etc.. give them a demo game. Maybe, just maybe, they won't find issues with the rules like you do. Perhaps they will actually like the way the current edition was designed (this is a major point of contention for new or prospective players- they have no point of reference with old editions or rules, or how old codexes were designed).

What if they like the current product? Any anecdotal or nostalgic ranting about how the game has changed is irrelevant. All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

This is what many of you do not seem to understand. It's clear GW has changed its marketing strategy- it probably doesn't suit the majority of you, or even me. Instead of trying to steer people away from a product that IS enjoyable for a lot of people, even in its current iteration despite its many flaws, try to be a little less negative.

Don't take pleasure in ruining other peoples enjoyment in something because you no longer find any in it. It just makes you look like bitter old men.

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

I still fail to see how I'm ruining peoples' enjoyment by showing them better games.

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I still fail to see how I'm ruining peoples' enjoyment by showing them better games.

How many hundreds of your anti-gw posts must I go through to find where you're 'showing them better games' than the game you aren't even attempting to try?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

This. When you say that you've played for X years, it lends credence to the fact that you know more than they do about the game. When you say how GW used to care about things, and now they don't care beyond trying to shill the next boxed set, it tells a new player that GW isn't a good company, and it's not. When you tell them that they could spend hundreds on models that look cool, only to find out that they suck in game and can't win unless they buy more, that tells a new player the fact the game isn't balanced, and they need to understand that to avoid wasting money only to end up losing every game through picking "wrong" units and getting frustrated.

You don't see that elsewhere because most games at least try to have SOME balance to prevent that, and have a way for new players to get up and running relatively quickly and cheaply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

I don't know about you, but if I was thinking of starting 40k and was totally new, hearing an ex player say that would send me running the other direction immediately, thinking "They must really be terrible if an ex player says that about them". A few complaints makes you wonder, a scathing lambasting is a giant red flag that it's a game to avoid, because while complaints are common with everything, there's a threshold that has to be reached in order to get to where somebody has nothing good to say about a company at all. Same with a job interview - if you ask how a company is and you get a rant how bad they are, chances are it's not just some disgruntled person, it's what they are really like and must be truly terrible to get somebody to the point where they start ranting about how awful it is.

There's a breaking point for everything that goes beyond just not liking something with a game; everything has this. It's when you reach that point that people just go on a rant whenever the subject is brought up that something terrible has happened.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

If you're going to call me a liar, call me a liar. Don't dance around the issue. You think that I lied and will only tell people extremely negative things about the game to get them to avoid playing it because I hate GW. Is that what you are saying?

I've told several people. I've pulled out my codex and wrote out lists for them using the battle force and a hand full of items they thought about getting. I informed them of how to play the army they wanted.
But I never lied about it. I never told them that the battle force and a handful is fine. I told them how much of an investment it costs. About how long it takes to paint. About how they will probably want to get the supplement if they actually want a BB ally. About the changes in the game. About what the other armies are like.

I'm telling you it's dishonest to avoid telling them the negative so they make uninformed decision. You respond by calling me a liar. Be glad there is a word filter and I'm not interested in getting suspended or I'd have more colorful responses.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

This. When you say that you've played for X years, it lends credence to the fact that you know more than they do about the game. When you say how GW used to care about things, and now they don't care beyond trying to shill the next boxed set, it tells a new player that GW isn't a good company, and it's not. When you tell them that they could spend hundreds on models that look cool, only to find out that they suck in game and can't win unless they buy more, that tells a new player the fact the game isn't balanced, and they need to understand that to avoid wasting money only to end up losing every game through picking "wrong" units and getting frustrated.

You don't see that elsewhere because most games at least try to have SOME balance to prevent that, and have a way for new players to get up and running relatively quickly and cheaply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

I don't know about you, but if I was thinking of starting 40k and was totally new, hearing an ex player say that would send me running the other direction immediately, thinking "They must really be terrible if an ex player says that about them". Same with a job interview - if you ask how a company is and you get a rant how bad they are, chances are it's not just some disgruntled person, it's what they are really like and must be truly terrible to get somebody to the point where they start ranting about how awful it is.

Or that person may have had their opinion swayed one way or another through internal or external sources. How many people praise a company when said company fires them? Or how about if that company brings in a new CFO and they reorganize or change the way the company approaches things, which may or may not impact their personal job (happens all the time).

The point is, a single persons opinion that was wronged, especially if they aren't being rational about it, isn't the best source to formulate an educated decision. Now, if you were talking to this person and stated how you don't like the direction the game is going, but MANY OTHER PEOPLE SEEM TO STILL ENJOY IT- that would be an unbiased neutral opinion that is not slated with your personal experience/bias.

Follow up with offering a demo game, or explaining rules while this person watches other people play. Then, and only then, would I believe you are being helpful.

That's why people should think for themselves, and not blindly follow everything they're told.

An honest opinion, frankly delivered, is a hugely valuable thing, but it is up to the person asking for that opinion as to what weighting they attribute to it, and it still remains entirely on them to make their own mind up.

I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between the well reasoned thoughts of a considered individual and the rantings of a frothing loon, if you can't, then life is going to be hard for you, not just the wargaming hobby.

 azreal13 wrote:
That's why people should think for themselves, and not blindly follow everything they're told.

An honest opinion, frankly delivered, is a hugely valuable thing, but it is up to the person asking for that opinion as to what weighting they attribute to it, and it still remains entirely on them to make their own mind up.

I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between the well reasoned thoughts of a considered individual and the rantings of a frothing loon, if you can't, then life is going to be hard for you, not just the wargaming hobby.

Some people can't, unfortunately.

You would be surprised how influential an opinion from a trusted friend can be. This would be particularly true if this person knew you have been a long-time player. It's hard to set aside personal bias/opinion for most people to the point you can be objective, especially if you aren't actively trying to persuade or convince someone to do something you are in agreement with (in this case hop on the GW express, when you got off thousands of stops ago).

I'll go back to the video game comparison- a large chunk of people legitimately base their entire purchasing decisions for games based on the sole review of a single reputable source.

Then that's the problem of the person asking the advice, the person who offers it shouldn't have to compromise what, when all is said and done, their integrity in order to mitigate what they think for fear that it will unduly influence that person (at least not in the context of toy soldiers.)

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

If you're going to call me a liar, call me a liar. Don't dance around the issue. You think that I lied and will only tell people extremely negative things about the game to get them to avoid playing it because I hate GW. Is that what you are saying?

I've told several people. I've pulled out my codex and wrote out lists for them using the battle force and a hand full of items they thought about getting. I informed them of how to play the army they wanted.
But I never lied about it. I never told them that the battle force and a handful is fine. I told them how much of an investment it costs. About how long it takes to paint. About how they will probably want to get the supplement if they actually want a BB ally. About the changes in the game. About what the other armies are like.

I'm telling you it's dishonest to avoid telling them the negative so they make uninformed decision. You respond by calling me a liar. Be glad there is a word filter and I'm not interested in getting suspended or I'd have more colorful responses.

I never called you a liar. I don't personally know you.

I only have this forum to use as a point of reference to gauge by, and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

If this is not the case, you have my apologies.

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

It is less the voicing and more how you go about doing it. I was away for a few hours, came back and people are berating the game.

This is how you do it objectively.

Point out the pros, point out the cons. Keep your opinion to yourself. If, after hearing both sides, they decide not to play, then you insert your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

You aren't getting it.

No, my enjoyment in the game is not entirely dependent on the opinions expressed here, or anywhere else for that matter.

But you have to understand you are in a different position than those who still enjoy this hobby. You don't have to login to a forum dedicated to discussing things about a hobby you are still invested in and have to wade through pages of threads that generally devolve into threads like this one. It's tiring, and to a lesser degree tarnishes the game I love. Not because I agree with you or disagree with you, simply because all the negativity that is repeated OVER and OVER without end is exhausting.

I already stated a while ago that I took a break from these forums before 7th came out, and I can honestly say I did enjoy the hobby more. You can't expect people that are enjoying something to not be impacted even slightly when someone shows up to basically tell them what they enjoy is terrible and that they are blatantly trying to steer people away from it.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

It is less the voicing and more how you go about doing it. I was away for a few hours, came back and people are berating the game.

This is how you do it objectively.

Point out the pros, point out the cons. Keep your opinion to yourself. If, after hearing both sides, they decide not to play, then you insert your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

I'm not going to stop voicing my opinion because I should be worried someone will take it as gospel. Stop trying to take away personal accountability. If they only listen to me, that's on them. Let them do their homework and research the game.

IMO what you are seeing is not people dissatisfied enough with GW to leave, but people that suddenly feel forced out by to them unacceptable changes/behavior.

I used to by one of the biggest supporters of 40k in my group. Since 5th edition they have all left, to the point that few games of 40k happened that did not involve me. For me I wasn't ready to leave yet, but GW is forcing our hand.