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Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

Yeah, but if I were to suggest someone tried 40K, they then spent the circa $300 or so to get something playable, rulebooks, paint etc and they hated it, I'd feel pretty bad.

If I'd let them try because I'd not given my full and frank appraisal of the current state of the game, I'd feel much worse.

This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity/why no more positivity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

The moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent, and I don't agree with that. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

If these threads have to stay, make a new sub-forum explicitly for them. That way, all the complaining people and all the people they're arguing with will still go there and rage their flame wars, and this sub-forum won't look like a joke. If you can oppose this idea without your argument amounting to "but I want my flamebait gak threads to have attention" then I'm all ears.

I think this forum is generally run well. This I feel is perhaps the only real big issue with this forum.

XenosTerminus wrote:

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I've made plenty of comments helping out new players with Tau and talked a bit in the tactics forum about Kroot and Skyrays. Not everything I've said is positive, but unless you have a mutant hand I doubt you're accurately representing my post history or opinion on the subject. If you talking about this thread, then mostly I've been repeating myself or discussing the arguments and not the hobby itself.

I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

How is this a better stance than my own? You admit that you have a positive bias and don't care about the negative things. If you're helping someone new to the hobby you're giving them just as skewed of an opinion on the game as you think I am. How do you justify misleading someone to make an uniformed investment like this hobby?

I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

Do you think this is a black and white thing? That you can only completely enjoy or completely hate? That there is no middle ground? That there isn't multiple aspects to 40K? That you can enjoy one aspect and hate another?

It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Have I ever said I try to ruin it for others? Can you quote me on that? Because you've been extremely disrespectful and purposefully misstated what everyone against you is saying in this thread. Can you show me how I'm hurting everyone by voicing my opinion?!

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Oh get some new material will you Omega?

It's got to the stage where every post you write is essentially the same regurgitated bile, with a slight riff on it if we're lucky.

You know how a discussion degenerates? When people like you post nonsense like this.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across once more.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Its not the opinions that bother me so much as the constant worthless, regurgitated arguments in each one, the multiples of the same thread simultaneously raging, as I said, contributing nothing and detracting greatly from the enjoyment of visiting this sub-forum.

You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across again.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Or maybe there's a series problem within the 40k community that needs to be addressed. The problem is that many players are highly dissatisfied with how the game and the company are. Ignoring this problem won't make it go away. In fact, GW ignoring these issues has led to this point. Stifling opinions and discussion won't help.

 azreal13 wrote:
You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

Oh, please flame me back, and attempt pointlessly to change my opinion so I can laugh at the inferiority of yours....

Its not the opinions that bother me so much as the constant worthless, regurgitated arguments in each one, the multiples of the same thread simultaneously raging, as I said, contributing nothing and detracting greatly from the enjoyment of visiting this sub-forum.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across again.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Or maybe there's a series problem within the 40k community that needs to be addressed. The problem is that many players are highly dissatisfied with how the game and the company are. Ignoring this problem won't make it go away. In fact, GW ignoring these issues has led to this point. Stifling opinions and discussion won't help.

Its not going to be addressed full stop. We are not going to change GW's mind.

Ignoring it won't make it go away. Giving it attention won't make it better. We can satisfy the people who keep it alive by throwing it in a new sub-forum or a central thread. I don't advocate suppression directly, I advocate seeing the forum tidied up and made less of a gak hole.

 azreal13 wrote:
You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

The only opinion that matters on Dakka is that which is negative.

If people that are happy with the game are 'GW Apologists' or 'White Knights', I propose a new title for the opposite end of the spectrum:

'Veterans of the long war against GW'

So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

 Purifier wrote:
GW have messed up 40k beyond all recognition. They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment."

I've been playing 40k for almost a year now, but with the new edition and everything, I can say the game is getting worse. Which is why I started dabbling in Fantasy, and I have to admit that it's much more balanced, realistic system with rules that, to me, just make more sense. I enjoy campaigns and Fluff and things like that, but almost everything in 40k has become nothing like fluff, with some armies just being obviously more overpowered, and some special rules just break the game. Whereas Fantasy, almost everything just flows better in my opinion. There is obviously cheese, but I've seen less of it, and it's so much easier to play fluffy lists and build awesome campaigns. I really hope they keep Fantasy how it is and not do the same thing they did to 40k.

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

Then perhaps the answer isn't to pretend it's nothing and maybe it'll go away...

 Mr.Omega wrote:

I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

So you don't want to get involved in a discussion. You want a new sub forum made where people can state an opinion, only people that agree with it respond, and get nowhere or get locked out entirely and delete all posts against that opinion. Unless you share in that opinion, then they're free to post what ever and where ever?

Know what? Make your own forum with that in mind and tell me how it flies.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

No, you're attacking people for having an opinion.

You're not refuting it, you're not countering it, you're not even offering your own as a counterpoint.

All you're doing is raging that people are discussing something that YOU don't agree with.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless, and now you've managed to drag the whole thing into something approaching a mud slinging contest yet again because you essentially have no point beyond "waah, stop writing things I don't want to read!"

I too am tired of the negativity.

I am mostly tired of feeling negative about 40k, but it is clear that GW could give two gaks about my opinion.

However, negativity is tiring. It wears me out. It gets my heart racing to no good end.

Also, addressing the discouraging people from playing. Yes. This a thousand times this.

I will actively encourage people to not play 40K. Why would I want to subject innocents to GW and their "hobby"?

I would rather "grow" the participation in games that I actively play.

You know the games that are a result of companies actually trying to achieve balance, actually listening to their customers, actually trying to write solid, tight, sensible, fun, unambiguous, inexpensive (or free!) rules.

When GW is inevitably bought out and the new owners make attempts at doing any of the above mentioned things then I will probably come back around the 40k. Until then...not a chance.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

I don't agree that this thread is garbage. We were having a reasonable discussion until the GW apologists started throwing out random insults and crude, negative and utterly pointless posts that say people shouldn't voice their opinions.

jamesk1973 wrote:
I too am tired of the negativity.

I am mostly tired of feeling negative about 40k, but it is clear that GW could give two gaks about my opinion.

However, negativity is tiring. It wears me out. It gets my heart racing to no good end.

Also, addressing the discouraging people from playing. Yes. This a thousand times this.

I will actively encourage people to not play 40K. Why would I want to subject innocents to GW and their "hobby"?

I would rather "grow" the participation in games that I actively play.

You know the games that are a result of companies actually trying to achieve balance, actually listening to their customers, actually trying to write solid, tight, sensible, fun, unambiguous, inexpensive (or free!) rules.

When GW is inevitably bought out and the new owners make attempts at doing any of the above mentioned things then I will probably come back around the 40k. Until then...not a chance.

As I've said to others before, if this is actually affecting you personally, take a break. Not in a "if you don't like it, feth off" sense, but in a "it's the internets, if you're taking it seriously enough that you're getting emotional, go out and spend some time with friends in real life, go for a bike ride or something" sense.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

So you don't want to get involved in a discussion. You want a new sub forum made where people can state an opinion, only people that agree with it respond, and get nowhere or get locked out entirely and delete all posts against that opinion. Unless you share in that opinion, then they're free to post what ever and where ever?

Know what? Make your own forum with that in mind and tell me how it flies.

No, a sub-forum where BOTH sides can discuss the topic of GW's morals/idiocy/pricing/issues of late.

You're practically openly admitting that you want your shove your protests and complaints down people's throats where more will see it as far as I read here. You do realise the opponents to the more popular view will still visit such a sub-forum? You'll get your flame war and pointless argument.

But of course, if you simply can't stand that, a single centralised thread will do as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

No, you're attacking people for having an opinion.

You're not refuting it, you're not countering it, you're not even offering your own as a counterpoint.

All you're doing is raging that people are discussing something that YOU don't agree with.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless, and now you've managed to drag the whole thing into something approaching a mud slinging contest yet again because you essentially have no point beyond "waah, stop writing things I don't want to read!"

Utterly, totally wrong.

You are not reading or understanding the point I am putting across. You are painting me as a GW apologist/white knight/whatever stupid slang insult name there is for people opposing the negativity view these days. You paint me as the opposition in your black and white argument, where I am not pretending to be of either side, and think both are wrong for arguing over the argument in the first place.

That is my argument in a nutshell. Read it again. And again. Drill it into your brain before you spit at me again.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless,

Well. I'm just going to recline back in an armchair and sigh.

That's pathetic. Sorry.

I am issuing a general warning here.

People have a right to complain about a company as long as the complaints are founded in fact.

People do not have a right to say that people who complain about GW are a "toilet", "whiners", "negativity" or any such personal attacks.

If you cannot bear to read a complaint about GW, stop reading them.

If you want to argue against such complaints, please do so with the usual points of evidence that are expected in any polite debate.

Conversely, if you want to complain about GW, please do so with the usual points of evidence that are expected in any polite debate, or I am going to consider your statement to be trolling and take action accordingly.

If people use DakkaDakka like a playground for starting stupid rants at each I am going to hand out a week's suspension for such cases.

This seems like an opportune time to point out that this thread is a perfect example of the point I've tried to make in several threads now: 'Fighting negativity with more negativity doesn't end well'.

This is a positive thread. It was started to specifically discuss positive things about Warhammer 40K. And it has stayed mostly positive, with minimal moderation.

This thread you're in right now, which was started to tell people to shut the hell up and stop complaining because somebody doesn't like people complaining... is 6 pages of people complaining that other people have a different opinion to their own and slinging insults.

If you see these forums as having a negative atmosphere and you feel that needs to change, you're not going to effect that change by telling people to stop talking about things you disagree with. Make a positive contribution instead.

I want also to point out that calling people "white knights" and "fanbois" because they like GW is just as insulting as calling people "whiners" for complaining.