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The wargaming crowd at my FLGS has been dwindling for a while due to schedule conflicts, people moving away, and general apathy. 40k has been taking a rather large hit for casual nights but we've still been able to pack the store for tournaments and Apoc games. A couple of people have jumped over to Fantasy including myself which is much more balanced overall than 40k. I, for one, also enjoy the fresh setting (for me anyways) since I've grown weary of the "Grimdark" story in 40k among other things (every time I see someone on the internet type "HERESY!" anymore, I just say to myself "feth you"). At the same time, the Fantasy army I do play is Warriors of Chaos and I've been enjoying their background and how much more badass they are than the Chaos Space Marines. That they're considered one of the best armies in the game right now doesn't hurt either, especially when I look at certain 40k thread on here with people saying "GW doesn't care about Chaos" without specifying CSM. WOC are having a great time!

Even so though, MTG is what's keeping the store alive and I end up playing more games of EDH than anything which almost everyone in the store is prepared to play at almost any time. I probably spend more money now on cool or interesting cards for my four decks than anything else hobby related. Since EDH is a casual format anyways, people are usually quite cool with siding out cards other decks can't handle, but otherwise the shenanigans that go on are hilarious some times like seeing how many other players can take control of one guy's Sliver Overlord.

Reasons for leaving in rough order: Poor rule writing (balance, clunkiness), no attempts to listen or improve, business model change, pricing, regional pricing, lawsuits. When I say leaving, I mean no longer playing the tabletop game, I still plan to immerse myself in the fluff and continue modeling whilst giving as little money to GW as possible. Thankfully you don't need to buy any of the books to read them, and models can be obtained very cheaply if you know where and how to look. My entire gaming group has stopped with 40k, I'm the only one that hasn't and won't be selling up since I initially got into the hobby for modeling rather than gaming. I'm a PC Gamer through and through and on that note, I really love Dawn of War 1 and 2 and Space Marine and really hope more good PC games come out. I started at the tail of 5th.

Currently playing: Dreadball.
Planning to play: Deadzone, X-Wing, Dropzone Commander.

I fething love Dreadball. Quick games with ample strategic depth. Lots of teams and - importantly - a rapidly expanding universe with 3 game systems set in it. I hope that one day it will rival 40k in scope. It will be less cheesy and grimdark, but more realistic and hopefully with less "GW-ness". I fell in love after seeing what Mantic had done after the Deadzone KS and immediately bought everythign available, then went in for the Dreadball Extreme kickstarter which I'm really looking forward to, probably spent almost $1K on it including the DBX KS. If you can't justify owning every team, what *can* you justify? ; p

Deadzone, like Dreadball is also set in the Warpath universe and is a skirmish scale game with fast rules that don't lack depth. It's a great system with great support and ample room to expand. I backed the KS (over $1K) so have all the models and terrain, I've cleaned all the restic (my GOD!) and just have to paint it now. 6 large armies and a boat load of terrain with a lot of individual characters.

Dropzone Commander is a different scale and I love the concept and from what I've seen of it, it looks really fun to play with a nice different gameplay style.

Videos:
Dreadball Academy: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Ultimate. Beasts of War series intrroducing Dreadball, great videos highly recommended, as is the game.
Deadzone: gameplay, terrain, unboxing. Beasts of War again. Love these guys! ; )
Dropzone Commander: part 1, part 2, starter set unboxing.

I stopped buying GW because of the prices.

I'm still interested in their products, I still check the website almost daily, and I still have money to spend, but whenever I see something I like, the price is what always ALWAYS puts me off. And not in the "Hmmm, maybe later" kinda way, it's more of a "Woah! They can go feth themselves!" kinda put-me-off.

I tend to look at my money, look at what I can get for it, and I just conclude that I'd rather spend it on something that doesn't make me feel like I got raped.

Can't say I've bought even a pot of paint from GW since about 2011.

Instead of GW I've mainly moved over to playing miniature board games. Things like Zombicide, Super Dungeon Explore and Fantasy Flight games.

I find those games more rewarding because you can play them with anyone, or with a whole group of people. And they don't need to have their own miniatures with them, or a deep prior knowledge of the rules. You just get out the box, and start having fun.

I think you also get much more variety in terms of painting. I thought I would miss my Space Marines, but I find the weird proportions kind of ugly now after looking at other miniatures for so long. I still have a lot of 40k stuff, so I might drift back and forth, but I can't see me buying anything new unless prices come down.

I'm sure I'm missing some, but I'll write a prioritized list:

1. Recognizing the company for what it was through its own employees.
I actually started playing again after about 10 years away from 40k when a GW store was opened literally 2 miles from my house. Having fond memories of 40k and always regretting not getting to go back to it, I got my friends to split AOBR and we were off and rolling. However, after about 5 years, I can vividly remember 5 distinct "managers" and watching all of their systematic progression from enthusiastic new employee, to potent salesman, to demoralized, management hating defeatist. What struck me was these guys were all pretty intelligent, reasonably dedicated people who should have been successful if they weren't set up for failure with unrealistic demands; particularly the demand of trying to build and support a community on the one man store model.

2. Lack of Balance.
I have a friend who played Blood Angels. His army kicked ass for a little bit. Then my friend who played Tau got a new codex. I could custom-build a Tyranid, Guard, or Dark Angels army to play his and generally struggle to squeeze out a draw while he just face rolled himself across the board with non-overheating plasma suits, movement during the assault phase, vehicles getting invulnerable saves for a couple points, Skyfire for a song, marker lights, etc, etc. It was absolutely insane to see how flexible and insanely good his codex was while we struggled with trying to squeeze every last optimized build out of ours to compete. And guess what? It's not really that much fun to get your ass kicked, or kick the crap out of your opponent without even trying. We figured out Rock/Paper/Scissors had better balance than Blood Angels/Tyranids/Tau.

3. The garbage Chaos Space Marine Codex.
What a piece of junk, really. I waited YEARS for that codex, the one that would make my really great set of models of ultimate bad guys viable and caught up with the game, and I got.... Heldrake, Plague Marines, Cultists/Zombies and Obliterators. Khorne Berserkers? No way to get into combat. Chaos Terminators? No more avoiding scatter. No matter what I tried, I could not get beyond the most efficient (and perhaps the only viable) build in the whole codex being Nurgle-themed Heldrake/Cultists/Oblits. What a letdown that was. My Chaos army was absolutely gorgeous, but god forbid I wanted to play a Khorne-themed army and not get wiped off the table in 3 turns. Seriously... who the hell play tested this and thought it would be fun?

4. Value.
I say value referring to the ratio of price to quality. With the obvious exception of a hobby knife, which the Lowe's across the street sells for literally $2.99, the first thing I jumped off the bandwagon for was primer. I'm not stupid. I refuse to pay $18 for a can of spray paint when a can of auto primer is $3, and I can literally hold up two fully painted versions of the same model and you couldn't tell me which one I used which primer on.

5. Finecast.
I don't like working with pewter, but after about a year, I simply refused to buy any more Finecast because of quality issues.


That being said, here's a few things I actually like:

The New Codices: I never had a problem paying a lot for books. I actually really liked the new full colored codices. I've always enjoyed reading gaming rulebooks. I actually like the layout of the new Ork codex from the pics I've seen.

The New Release Rate: I like the fact that things seem to be flying out at a crazy rate, and I'm glad GW seems to have recognized that their previous model was WAY too slow. That being said, I'd like to see them invest in a bit more quality control and game design to improve balance and rules wording.

Apocalypse: I honestly don't know that I mind having Lords of War in a regular-sized game, but I do know the most fun I ever had playing 40k was a giant Apocalypse game I organized. What a mess. A fun, insane, crowded mess.

The Paint Line: I hate mixing paint, and I kind of like collecting all of the tons of different colors anyways, so the paint line never bothered me. I know a lot of people feel like it's overpriced, and I don't like some of the goofy technical paints, but overall I like the citadel paint line and will continue to use it with Warmachine and Bolt Action and whatever else I play going forward.

I didn't so much leave GW as revert.

I play 5th ed 40k at home with my old Ork codex, as well as Necromunda, 1st ed space hulk and once in a great while Blood Bowl or BFG.

Some of the older GW stuff is good. The newer stuff by and large leaves me cold. I'll give 7th a try, with the new codex, and if it doesn't do it for me i'll keep playing the older stuff.

I am always willing to try a new system or two though. Not tried Infinity yet, though it's on the cards...

I stopped with GW largely due to prices and them rehashing the rules that left me behind. I don't want to constantly but new rules and codecies to use the same figures. I started with RT and 2nd edition, everything beyond that has been inferior IMO. Also GW have pushed bigger and bigger armies, I don't have the time or finances to commit to such large numbers of figures simply because they are writing the rules to do this. I don't even like playing with so many figures. All my favourite small scale games, like Necromunda and Gorkamorka, have been abandoned.

I'm currently interested in Flames of War and the Batman miniatures game.

I also play mtg because, like board games, there's no need for painting for which I have limited time. There's a large group here and it's a guaranteed Friday night out, no fuss. Some people say mtg is expensive (it is if you simply net-list and then buy all the cards from dealers, durr), but having a whole night out drafting on £10 and getting a pile of cards is much better value than going to the pub or whatever else I'd probably find myself doing. GW doesn't offer anything comparable.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Spoiler:

I started collecting Lord of the Rings models waaaaay back when they first came out but never really played, just painted (I was like 12 at the time). I eventually branched out and entered 40k as 5th edition hit. I even joined a club to get some actual games in.

Since I began 40k I had had half an eye on fantasy and bought into it as 8th hit 2 years later.

Fast forward another year, year and a half years and the club had dwindled down to about 6 regulars. One of those regulars played blood angels (at the time a top teir army) with the typical netlist of the day. My fluffy armoured company couldn't do anything to beat that list and I quickly got sick of playing him. Fantasy took over more and more as my primary game. By the tail end of 6th I had stopped playing 40k, mostly due to the rules. The prices hurt too but it was the rules that did it.

I never actually stopped and considered that I had quit, I just waved it off as focusing on fantasy. I was fully prepared to jump back in when I heard 6th was coming. Then I played an introduction game of 6th and realized I was done.

I have now found the same thing has happened with fantasy in the last year, dystopian wars took its place as my main game, and I played fantasy less and less until I had a choice between a fantasy and dyst wars tournament on the same day. I went in for dyst wars and realized I had left fantasy behind too.

So thats how it went for me, not with a bang but with a fizzle. I found games with better rules, the same or better models at better prices and I just stopped caring. I play a lot more than just dyst wars now and I do still buy GW products to paint occasionally, but they used to get 100% of my hobby dollar, maybe $1,000 a year. Now that I work full time they have gotten all of $200 or so off me since the start of the years while I have spent well over $4,000 in the same time frame on the wider hobby.

Why did you choose Dystopian Wars?

Well my friend got 4 of us together and showed us the deal on Spartan Games' site where you could buy any 4 starters at a good discount. I had played a little battlefleet gothic in the past and enjoyed it so I figured it was worth a try.

It was slow in the beginning, a couple of guys lost interest. Then after like a year me and my mate dusted our models off, found we hase missed a ton of new releases and dived back in. Our forces grew very quickly after that.

Interest began to waver again as the same problems that ruined 40k, namely poor balance and unclear rules, became obvious again but then 2.0 was announced. It seems to have fixed the vast majority of problems we had with the game and now as I type this there is a 14 foot table occupying my friend's living and dining rooms with 10,000 points a side waiting for us to find time to finish.

It was a rocky start looking back on it but were I keep seeing GW make the same mistake Spartan have learned from every misstep and keep pulling me back in every time my interest wavers.

Ever since I started 40k, the lack of tight rules bothered me. I was in a forum reading about Shrike (5th Ed) because I wanted to make an army surrounding him, and there was a debate about RAI and RAW and why Shrike can't use his first turn assault if we're tlaking RAW. I'm like, shouldn't be RAI and RAW one and the same. But my friends play it so what the hell.

Then I get to encounter the imbalance, the long wait when it's not your turn, some FLGS drama (along the lines of "Just have fun! Don't try to be too competitive." But I find fun in playing competitively. Ugh.), and I just stopped before 6th hit. When 6th hit I saw the price increases and Finecast (my friend bought me a box for my birthday) and how terrible it is.

I switched to Infinity. Tight rules, better models, better company. Although I still crave for mass-ish battles, so I'm also looking at Kings of War. Haven't played a game yet because no one plays it here so I'm starting two armies so I can let a friend borrow one.

This feels like some sort of AA meeting. I will stand up in the circle..

I won't say left, but I don't play the current games and haven't bought anything in a while bar the odd pot of paint.

Rather than it being one important reason, it's been more like a gradual wearing down of my defences, to the point where all enthusiasm for anything with GW written on the side of it has been squeezed out of me(!)

- Rest of World embargo - One from the 'summer of terror' from a few years ago. I used to live in a country with no GW, no local stock-ists (well, one, but it was an 8-hour round trip) I used to order all of my stuff overseas from Wayland, Maelstrom and others. New Orc and Goblin WFB army planned, several hundred £, I received an email from said shop "sorry we can't process your order". I phoned up, a few laughs of disbelief and comments of "how on earth is that legal?!" followed. End result, it forced me into looking at other games. I had played Flames of War previously, dabbled with War Machine, but this was the first time I had jumped into other games wholesale.

GW has aimed its releases at a younger audience, while I have got older. - This isn't a criticism of the product in objective terms as such, more a recognition. The gritty realism and sci-fi grimdark appealed to me when I was 10-11 years old, at the tale end of 1st edition. It appealed because it wasn't aimed at kids, and I think a lot of kids like that! It was distinctly adult. I must be honest, a lot of the new (especially 40k) releases wouldn't look out of place on the shelves of Toys'r'us, firing plastic missiles and with sound effects. The aesthetic is now designed to appeal to children, the universe has become more comic-book and mock grim-faced, square-jawed hollywood.

Burn out - Perhaps you can only do so much of something? I think most people are the same with music or video games - you don't listen to the same CD for years after years, or play the same game endlessly do you? After disgorging 10,000 marines from rhinos it gets tired. There aren't the other 'specialist' games out there from the company to keep things fresh, and really now the name itself 'Games Workshop' has become something of an ironic joke.

Principled buyer - Again, this is very much a personal thing, and will affect some people more than others. The constant price rises, the switch to a crappy material while increasing prices again (while making out it's the best thing ever), the canning of anything that doesn't have a large profit margin, the reduction to 1-man stores, the legal bullying of other, smaller, companies, the war on fan sites, and complete shut down on forms of communication with your customers. Having worked at the company you hear some pretty damning stuff - in short, I think the upper management have a major contempt thing going for their customers, the word 'sheep' coming up quite often, and it's so obvious as to be practically dripping from everything they do. Great if none of this stuff bothers you and you just want to paint some marines, but I don't want to support a company that behaves in such a fashion and all of it combined has been a massive buzz-kill for me.

Would love for GW to return to the company I knew of old, but for now I don't think that's a very likely proposition. Fortunately, we're not in a closed market economy, and there are plenty of other companies out there to give the player their wargaming fix.

I started from 1989, i am foremost a collector, Although i played a lot of games, but i never was a purist, played Warzone, Stalingrad, Chronopia, besides 40k i played BFG, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, WHFRP and Inquisitor. Dabbled in first edition Hordes and Warmachine, now i started a Russian Bolt action Army and Russian Dust warfare/tactics army. And i am thinking of Infinity.

The thing that killed it for me are the GW prices, when i started with GW i was still in school and could afford it with side jobs, but the prices has gone through the roof. I have a job get enough money to spend on my hobbies, but these prices are an insult to their customers. (Oh, and killing off BFG and Necromunda was also a smart move (hello X-wing and Deadzone)

After returning to tabletop gaming in my mid 20's I started to see GW are more of a cynical cash generating machine; the character I remember was fading, all the names that made the game I played (2nd Ed) had moved on, and they were suing everything that moved.

I only got back into the hobby after discovering Warlord, and bought a couple of ancients armies to paint, then my friend suggested we did out our old 40K, so we did and played that for a while, him using more or less stuff he already owned, and I built up my collection using eBay as compared to Warlord the prices were just too high for what you get.

Eventually I started feeling dissatisfied with 40K; there wasn't much strategy to it and games were often a foregone conclusion. I started looking at other games (like X-Wing and FoW) and quickly realised that there are much better games out there, so my 40K stuff has largely been shelved whilst I play other games (Malifaux, X-Wing, FoW). I've still got a core of about 3000pts of my IG army, and a substantial Dwarf army, but now I don't have any of the current edition books (rules or army books) and haven't had a game with either for the best part of a year.

When I started visiting my local club I really only played 40K (I collected allsorts though) and it was the common demoninator; everyone had a 40K army. But again I realised that most people played something else, so when I started getting into other games they became the arranged game of choice which I prefer (less stuff to bring, quicker set up, quicker play).

I probably won't get rid of all of my GW stuff, I'll trim it back a bit further though, but it's no longer my game of choice and I don't really feel the need to try and keep up. I can't say I've been tempted enough by any of my armies new releases to pay the asking prices either.

I didn't leave GW. GW left me when they embargoed my country.

 slowthar wrote:

...
...
...
That being said, here's a few things I actually like:

The New Codices: I never had a problem paying a lot for books. I actually really liked the new full colored codices. I've always enjoyed reading gaming rulebooks. I actually like the layout of the new Ork codex from the pics I've seen.

The New Release Rate: I like the fact that things seem to be flying out at a crazy rate, and I'm glad GW seems to have recognized that their previous model was WAY too slow. That being said, I'd like to see them invest in a bit more quality control and game design to improve balance and rules wording.

Apocalypse: I honestly don't know that I mind having Lords of War in a regular-sized game, but I do know the most fun I ever had playing 40k was a giant Apocalypse game I organized. What a mess. A fun, insane, crowded mess.

The Paint Line: I hate mixing paint, and I kind of like collecting all of the tons of different colors anyways, so the paint line never bothered me. I know a lot of people feel like it's overpriced, and I don't like some of the goofy technical paints, but overall I like the citadel paint line and will continue to use it with Warmachine and Bolt Action and whatever else I play going forward.

Some interesting points there.

Nex Codex Design: Personally I dislike the new codexes just because of price. To me, £30 for a codex that used to be £15 is not justifiable just because it has hard covers and colour pics. For some years I have advocated GW to adopt a publishing model of a high end codex/rule book and a stripped down budget version for people who just want the rules. They kind of moved towards that with the new 7th edition three volume set, but unfortunately have not released the rules only book which is what I want.

New Release Rate: Totally agree. We all want our armies updated in good time within the life of an edition of the rules. But we want them updated carefully and with balance.

Apocalypse: Another point I agree with. I don't like Apocalypse myself but I think it is a fun option for the game. It should have remained an option. The inclusion of Apocalypse units in the standard game was a mistake.d

Paints: GW offer their own premium paint line. Equally good paints can be bought elsewhere. There is good choice and you don't have to use GW paints for GW games. The ideal situation IMO.

Back on topic, as a senior wargamer who started before GW was set up, I have always regarded them as just one option in an increasingly rich landscape of possibilities.

GW have in the past few years put a lot of stuff into 40K that is detrimental to my interests, such as Escalation, Allies and Flyers. That sort of stuff of course can be ignored and ruled out. The basic reason I have moved away from 40K is pricing. I do not find the value for money in the modern priced books.

For a lot of players though, GW was their entry into wargames and for some, their only participation. Moving on to new games is good in one way, since the hobby is vast and offers all sorts of fun. In another way it is bad, if it means that GW are driving people away.

It is very interesting to hear what core GW players have to say, since if GW are beginning to fail to retain their core fans, it may augur badly for recruitment in the future. That would have wide implications.

I started on my 40k path around 1996 when my friend had 2nd ed. 40k, played all the way up until 5th edition during that time I was also dabbling with the Mk1 version of Warmachine on the side, but not with that much frequency. It was like 90% 40k to 10% WMH.

Why I left.

Well, the most obvious one really was 6th (and 7th) was a steaming pile of gak excuse for rules. To tell the truth I left just before 6th when a change of staff pretty much drove me out of my local GW. It was a perfect storm of the previously mentioned "summer of terror", Finecrap, jobsworth staff that pretty much would not let you even be in the store if you were not buying anything, terrible rules and just general disillusionment.

Finecrap was released and this was just a slap in the face to everyone who cared about quality. Any doubt that GW was just squeezing their customers for every last penny was removed with Finecrap's release. I was utterly disgusted with it as a material and GW's sheer arrogance regarding the defects and the SELLING stuff for you, as a customer to fix them. I refused to buy it and still do. Finecrap has tainted GW's brand more than anything they've ever done IMO.

But still, I held out hope that 6th would actually be good as I still wanted to play as I had several as I had (and still have, but it is greatly diminished) several large armies and had several friends who still played and we could play round my house or at the local club*.
It was not to be, after playing more and more WMH in the meantime made me see what utter garbage 40k's rules were by comparison. I tried 6th, played a couple of games and just didn't like it. It was a game that did not know what it wanted to be. It was schizophrenic mix of skirmish rules in a company level (or above) game, whilst 5th had this issue to an extent, it was in no way the same as 6th with its rules for challenges and individual CCW rules for example.

What the internet said was true, you needed to play this with close friends and pickup games would become a nightmare due to differing game philosophies and the balance being so out of whack and GW's frankly hippy dippy style of rules writing.

I'm sure forgetting a lot of bits and bobs, but the above were the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.


*Interesting note, there was a certain individual who drove me (and several others) away from that club and nearly WMH due to certain things he did. Yes, this was a bit of a dark time for me.


What I went to

I went full bore into Warmahordes and I've never really looked back. Whilst I've seen that PP as a company has a fair few problems of its own from what I've seen on here and other places, they are in no way on the same magnitude as GW and none of them directly affect me as a customer, unlike several from GW. Well, apart from the one GW indirectly caused during the "summer of terror" with the mass exodus from GW causing stock shortages of PP products pretty much everywhere.

The game is far better, although it is a lot more "intense" (I do occasionally long for a more relaxed game that I can switch to from time to time. This was the purpose 40k served up until 6th) the rules are tighter and as a result it is far more enjoyable to play. I've never ever seen a rules argument that was not solved in a few minutes, unlike 40k, where I saw full bore shouting matches at the GW store and local club.

As others have said, although it can feel a little "mechanical" at times, it does not have the same feel as 40k (also in terms of the previously mentioned relaxation, after a game on monday me and my friend looked exhausted after playing and we both let out a sigh of relief after the game was over, yes it got to be quite "cranial" towards the end as practically the only models left were our casters) but diving into the background does remedy this (my next stop probably will be the RPG).

Now, we've got a new FLGS that has just opened up so I've got WMH models on my doorstep! (Yay!) Before, there was a few small pockets of players (with some I refused to play due to their attitudes, unfortunately the local TFG plays WMH so its not all unicorns and rainbows, but I digress) but now the dam has well and truly burst with a fairly substantial group now more or less established with new players coming in all the time. Give it a couple more months and everyone will be established with full armies and everything will be good.

 Pacific wrote:
This feels like some sort of AA meeting. I will stand up in the circle..

Hello, My name is Strombones and I am recovering from a decade long GW relationship. I haven't played 40k in a year. cue group applause

I will always love the Grimdark, but I just can't keep up with the prices. I'm not exaggerating by any measure. I can't afford GW plastics. Apart from Hero's Quest, 40k is the only tabletop game I've ever played for the last 17 years. I guess I just didn't realize what else was out there.

With the recent price hikes and rules debates, the 40k community here has all but dried up. Towards the end it was far more likely for a meeting of 40k to turn into a hate discussion than an actual game. People would meet but not even unpack their models.

Probably the most influential factor for me leaving was the price. Even though I cannot afford GW, I'm still going to continue gaming and buying plastic crack. I saw the Open Fire! Flames of War boxed set for around 60 bucks online and thought "there is absolutely no reason to NOT buy that". Although I don't really care for Battlefront's rules, they really make some beautiful infantry models. I based them individually with the intention of writing my own skirmish game and then found Battlegroup. Whereas I use to play a game of 40k maybe once a month, now I have a small group that plays 15mm Battlegroup weekly.

15mm Battlegroup is amazing. Not only do I love the rules but you can get rolling for $30.

I started playing 40K when RT first hit the shelves in 88 or 89. I had so much fun playing, especially 2nd edition. Then third edition hit. Between the uber generic rules and joining the Army and college I didn't get back into 40K until 6th. I really liked 6th, but there were many flaws. When GW switched to 7th and doubled down on those flaws AND wrecked the fluff and combined with their business practices burst the bubble for me.
I have since gotten into Warmachine and Infinity. Of the two, I'm more excited about Infinity but both are amazing games. I already have a 25pt Cryx army and a 300pt Ariadna army...both of which are almost fully painted. Next up is X Wing.

 heartserenade wrote:
Ever since I started 40k, the lack of tight rules bothered me. I was in a forum reading about Shrike (5th Ed) because I wanted to make an army surrounding him, and there was a debate about RAI and RAW and why Shrike can't use his first turn assault if we're tlaking RAW. I'm like, shouldn't be RAI and RAW one and the same. But my friends play it so what the hell.

Then I get to encounter the imbalance, the long wait when it's not your turn, some FLGS drama (along the lines of "Just have fun! Don't try to be too competitive." But I find fun in playing competitively. Ugh.), and I just stopped before 6th hit. When 6th hit I saw the price increases and Finecast (my friend bought me a box for my birthday) and how terrible it is.

I switched to Infinity. Tight rules, better models, better company. Although I still crave for mass-ish battles, so I'm also looking at Kings of War. Haven't played a game yet because no one plays it here so I'm starting two armies so I can let a friend borrow one.

Make sure that folks know that they can use their Warhammer armies for much of the game. It makes it a lot easier to bring folks into the game, or at least that proved the case for me.

I do not think that there are any 'Pure Mantic' armies in my local group - my Undead are close, but also have miniatures from Reaper, Avatars of War, Heresy, Grenadier (who doesn't want an undead war rhino?), and Raging Heroes. (The rank and file are almost pure Mantic, though.)

Dwarfs are in a similar position, including some war machines from Ral Partha.

And, best of all, it is possible to make it through entire tournaments without any rules arguments....

My only gripe is that characters are solo - no bodyguard. (And there is a fix for that in Iron Watch issue 1.)

The Auld Grump

I had played GW games from Rogue Trader days. I dabbled in 3rd edition WHFB and play all the Specialist Games. Now days I only play Specialist Games and haven't bought a GW product since 2012(?). I think my last game of 40K was a Planetstrike game. I mostly left beacuse they priced me out of the market and kept increasing the scope of the game for more and more models. When I could no longer manuever my army beacuse it couldn't fit in the deployment zone I was out.

Since then, I dabbled in a lot of other games. I could list them all out, but that would just be tedious. Ultimately I landed on the following go-to games that I play:

1. Force-on-Force/Tomorrow's War- Flexible and scenario based
2. Specialist Games- Many using a lot of Homebrew Modifications
3. Homebrew Games

I actually found it was really fun to just make the games I wanted to play myself. This has become a hobby in its own right and I have an unhealthy stack of rulebooks for games I don't intend to play, but I want to understand their mechanics.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Make sure that folks know that they can use their Warhammer armies for much of the game. It makes it a lot easier to bring folks into the game, or at least that proved the case for me.

Problem is no one plays WHFB here as well.

I don't actually mind. I'm also trying to learn how to paint in batches and speedpainting while maintaining the quality I want. I tend to concentrate a lot on one figure at a time and though the output is great for me most of the time, it's unfeasible if I want to finish armies.

I'm almost done with one unit of 20 halberdiers and 5 swordsmen, as well as 9 cavalry models for my Kingdoms of Men army. I'm starting to pick up on speed with painting.

Well I guess I am the opposite as been painting more GW stuff then ever only buying books until I finish all of the figures I have. (filling in with ebay, new figures or transports to complete the unit)

I have historical armies both sides for ACW,AWI, WWII, WWI german east Africa, Arab medieval armies, LOTR, ECW, French Revolution, French and Indian wars, wild west, dinosaur hunting, spies, malifuax,great rail wars and some I cannot remember.

Also have WWI airplanes.

tried Warmachines, ironclads, spaceships and just do not like the type of battles (just consider the warjacks land ships)

Just like the flexibility of GW and use all of their source material and the material from the above eras to create the games. No this is wrong or right as you can play it how you want.

but Just ordered my first unit from Victoria miniatures to add to my Imperial guard units. Need more variety.

Why I left GW (just in the last two months) permanently (everything from 22 years of GW collecting is gone as of yesterday thanks to ebay): Insane prices for sub-standard products, a game system that is a first-grade hack-job compared to almost all their competition, their desire to have everyone playing Epic at 28mm scale and a company that views people as nothing more than suckers to fleece.

What I have been playing: Infinity (quite a bit), Hell Dorado (fairly regularly), Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action (on occasion).

Why I choose the two regular games I play:
Hell Dorado - This fulfills my fantasy fix and I was really attracted to the setting. The miniatures are cool and the game has some unique elements that make it a fun skirmish game.

Infinity - I really like this game. After coming from the GW camp, it takes a little while to get used to a game that doesn't rely on list building, a universe where guns are actually lethal, and a game that keep both players involved non-stop from the start to the end. I like the background of the game as well and how Corvus Belli is moving the story forward as the game progresses. In addition, the models, especially the newer sculpts being released, are just plain gorgeous.

It seems like most people that have left GW have done so for very similar reasons, and this has been building for a number of years with the company doing nothing about it.

Why I left GW:
I started playing WFB when I was 7, some 25 years ago. That meant big armies. With reasonably priced Battallions it was quite easy and affordable to do (just go and check out the original White Dwarf "Tale of Four Gamers" articles). With a set amount of money you could add a unit or two and a character to your army each month. So the main reason for me now is pricing, the £25 to £35 pricing for 10 man elite units is obscene and I could just not justify it anymore in spite of loving the setting and miniatures.

What I Went to:
First Mantic's KOW, a great ruleset and it is possible to get bucketloads of units for a great price. The rules and army lists are free and are built so that you can use proxies from almost any miniature line, this is also not frowned upon by most opponents. There even some armies without any official models yet so this is a necessity in some cases. I have not looked back. The game is quick, but has a great level of depth and tactical flexibility. A great game.

But I have also moved onto more skirmish level gaming in the form of Malifaux and Deadzone. Great intuitive rulesets and a growing community and support. malifaux is expensive, but for me they are they best miniatures out there and you only need 5-8 minis, a fate deck, the rules and you are set to go. All easily done for under £50, the price of an elite unit in GW's world that will get you nowhere. Deadzone is great too and has equally low startup costs.

Why I left GW: The constant dumbing down of their two main products was what ultimately led me to leave GW. I still have armies for almost all of their specialist games and a single WHFB army that I keep for nostalgia purposes and in the vain hope that GW finally sees the light and makes 9th edition a return to the golden age of 6th ed. WHFB. My last army of 40k was sold when 7th ed was released and the sheer amount of crap finally made me realise that there was no going back for that game.

What I have been playing: Warmahordes more regularly, Infinity and Malifaux a bit more sparsely. I also occasionally play Force on Force, Flames of War and X-Wing.

Why I choose the regular games I play: Warmahordes just scratches my tactical itch, this game has the best written rules set, bar none. Its just a pleasure to look back into a game and realise that it doesn't matter what the dice rolled, it doesn't matter what army you took, you can always pin point the exact decision that you made or that your opponent made that made you win or lose the game.

Infinity has gorgeous miniatures and fulfils my sci-fi quota of games. Malifaux has oodles of character and along with Infinity, provides endless truly cinematic moments that are just fun!

Why I left GW: Ever since getting the second edition boxed game for Christmas as a nipper, I was hooked. Games Workshop and their vision of the 41st millennium have been a part of my life for almost as long as I can remember. I loved the background, the stories, the art, the games...Space Hulk, Necromunda, Epic and of course, 40k. I missed out on 4th edition, but I jumped back in to 5th edition after deciding to up my modelling skills as well as play the games themselves. So I enjoyed building and playing with Imperial Guard, Space Marines & Orks. But things were not feeling the same. A box of twenty guardsmen had become ten. Prices climbed. Lawyers did questionable things in the shadows. Game balance became alarming wobbling. The atmosphere in stores became...odd. Less and less welcoming and less and less room and gaming time. Finecast. Fluff retcons. Then 6th edition hit. Nostalgia and familiarity ceased to be enough, so I decided to walk away. I have a few 40k modelling projects to finish off, but until things change within the fortress walls and moat, I am looking elsewhere for my gaming fix.

What I have been playing: Warmachine MKII has grabbed me and some of my friends. And we are having a brilliant time trying out the various factions. I am also looking into Infinity, Deadzone and a few other skirmish games. This really is becoming a golden age for choice when it comes to gaming!

Why I choose the regular games I play: Warmachine caught my eye with the style. Arcane, steampunk robots commanded by war wizards? Tell me more. The rules then surprised me by being pretty damn good. I like the majority of the models (though some are bloody awful to put together and keep together). The world is interesting, the background is growing on me and the game itself is quick and fun to play, and the smaller amount of models needed make it easy to start an army and get playing with it, without breaking the bank.

I'd been in the 40k hobby off and on since 2nd edition began, but I really I started leaving 40k when I started a club with a couple of guys that were all interested in playing small skirmish games. From then on (about 4 years ago) my 40k spending quickly fell to almost nothing until 7th edition arrived and I realized that I hadn't bought any new GW product in almost 2 years, and I wasn't about to spend $180 for a rulebook and 2 codices just to stay current with the rules.

What I went to instead was quite a few games, all of which the club also plays and which collectively I'm able to pursue for about the same cost as one 40k hobby. I buy whatever miniatures I like and use them in whatever rules I and the club enjoy most. For Fantasy gaming, I now play Song of Blades and Heroes (Mordhiem-size warband skirmish), Of Gods and mortals (LoTR SBG-size skirmish) and Kings of War. For 28mm Sci-Fi I play In The Emperor's Name, Tomorrow's War Warpath 1.0 and WarEngine. I've also been playing 10mm sci-fi with Mech Attack and Battletech's Alpha Strike. Though varied in style, mechanics, I find most of these rulesets to be streamlined (TW is a notable exception) and fast playing but still delivering a fun gaming experience, and all of them either have a unit creation mechanic or have enough stated units to cover virtually any unit I might wish to put put on the battlefield.

Put another way, I went to a style of gaming that for the most part leaves the selection and combination of miniatures, rules and background up to me. Compared to a prepackaged game experience, it does take a bit more work and more planning and cooperation with your opponents, but I've found the results to be very satisfying. I'm currently collecting, playing, building and painting as much or more than I ever did in my 40k era.

The other major aspect of my new gaming life is only playing with and against painted miniatures. For a variety of reasons, it is very difficult to play only against painted armies when gaming 40k/WHFB/WM. Myself and the club adore the spectacle of painted miniatures on great terrain and so we game accordingly. This is made much easier by the smaller scope of most of the games we play, but we maintain the same standards for our games of Kings of War . Regardless, after 4 years of painted only, when I look at a table now and see unpainted units (easily 60% of the 40k/WHFB/WM games I've observed in the past year) it just looks so unappealing that I can't summon up the interest to even want to play.

Put another way. I now feel that life's too short to play with unpainted miniatures.

How I got into it: I used to work at Blockbuster and I really hit it off with one of my customers. He came by all the time, started hanging out outside the store, and eventually I stumbled into a 40K game at his place between him and his brother. This was back in 2009, and I was instantly hooked. Loved 5th edition, played it every weekend with my buddies and had a great time. 6th edition hit and basically wiped out my gaming group. Half the guys I was playing with let it go. I didn't like a lot of the changes, but still played occasionally. Nowhere near my 5th ed playtime.

How I branched out: After 6th edition dropped, one of the guys in my group who was getting away from GW converted the rest of us to Warmachine. I liked the game at first, but absolutely hated the aesthetic. I eventually settled on Cygnar because they looked the least heinously ugly to me. I played it for over a year before finally realizing I just utterly despised the game.

During that time, I also let my huge obsession of WWII carry over to my tabletop and started playing Flames of War. Played that for a few months before I discovered Battlegroup, which is another historical ruleset and is now my favourite tabletop game. Oh yeah, X-Wing is also awesome. I play that on a regular basis as well. Also Infinity is great, I have about 10 guys for Ariadna. Haven't gotten to play much, but it's a solid game.

I'm not anti-40K now or anything like that, in fact I'm gonna be playing 40K this weekend with a friend of mine. It's definitely not the sole focus of my hobby anymore though, for which I'm grateful because there's so much good stuff out there now. All you have to do is look!

After reading this I've realised that there were 2 distinct turning points in my relationship with GW:


First was the closing of Maelstrom. Their various sales (regularly 30+% off) made GW pricing bearable when I got back into the hobby (I got the 6th Ed BRB for about £33, the Realm Of Battle board for £127). I can buy stuff for about 20% off now, but after another couple of price hikes it's just too much to justify.

Second was the Finecast thing. Buying the worst cast model I've ever seen and the staffer trying to sell me liquid green stuff when I brought it back; just no. Having 2 replacements checked by the customer service staff and send out whilst still miscast just shows how they viewed it. I gave up after 7 replacements and haven't bought finecast (or in fact anything else bar the occasional metal before they went OOP) since.

Have not stopped 40k yet but seeing a steady "drifting away".

X-wing = fun and immediate play.

Battletech: Played before 40k, come back and having fun again.

Robotech: Bought into that, anime stomping robots, see if Kickstarter pans out.

Just having fun, rules are great, at least feel balanced.

It just seems that people who want to "destroy" players with their carefully selected OP armies in 40k get stomped like anyone else in these other games (sometimes worse).

I LIKE Competitive, it just seems people looking for an ego boost are drawn to 40k and I find much more enjoyable tactical players in the other games.

FoW. Fantasy flight RPG's and a lot of boardgames like talisman and settlers of catan have been re-emerging.
Won't give reasons due to starting people moaning and thinking I hate GW due to me being somehow jumping on a bandwagon....ive played 40k since rogue trader and love the 40k universe but I find myself more and more not enjoying games as wraithknights, riptides, knights, screamerstar, necron nonsense make playing (for me) unfun.
I'm wish I never persuaded my gamer circle to abandon 2nd edition in 2012!
I like FoW because it's so simple, elegant and seems to have all the competitive aspects without all the nonsense plus the whole recreation of classic battles immersive element.
I love 40k. Just hate TFG. Which may be illogical. Can't help where the fun for me is at.

Why I left: The absolute disconnect between lore and gameplay, labyrinthine rules, and GW's attitude towards players.

When I saw what they did to the Ork army section of the new codex (ie, giant model photos and little else) I said screw this and have been listing everything online over the past few days.

Where I went: Infinity, which is absolutely fantastic. Tried out a few other games, such as Flames and Kings of War, but despite the quality of the former its just more IGOUGO and the latter I'm over giant model counts.

Looking at Malifaux and X Wing, which seem to be popular destinations for ex-40k players around here.

VanHallan wrote:
Thoughts on KOW?

Its fantastic. I'm sick of massive # of miniatures though, I'd play a 15mm version to death but I'm giving the 28mm a pass.

God, you could do some titanic battles in 15mm with those rules.