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There's a separate thread for that discussion

I agree we roll to hit. And that the chariots owner can allocate hit. But, PS does not have a weapons profile and the hit itself does no damage outside of making PS go off. The power itself is queued against the target of the power, ie the unit selected, and the unit makes a leadership test and is wounded. Only one profile can suffer wounds, and the controlling player does not have permission to allocate wounds to the Chariot.

The hit itself does nothing but guarantee Ps affects the unit. The power itself is against the unit, not the specific profile "hit" as the power effects the unit. The Unit does have a leadership and can suffer wounds. We know how to handle that.

Either PS affects the profile hit and can be allocated to do nothing.

Or

It effects the unit where we can fully resolve the power against the Rider as normal.

Here's another example if you Psychic Shriek a Rhino. You must roll 3d6-LD but the Rhino has no Ld and no wounds. Do we

a) conclude that the attack does nothing as it can not be resolved (if this is your interpretation then you don't roll to hit)

b) make up a value for the Rhino Ld and wounds (which you huys seem to think is 1) so auto-remove the rhino (if this is your interpretation then you roll 1 dice to hit with PS).

The power does not work RAW as there is no way to roll to hit with it. Some people are claiming you can skip the to-hit roll, but that has just as much support as rolling a single die (i.e. none).

Simply put, there are no mechanics in the rules that allow psychic shriek to resolve at all.

It is therefore unsurprising that it can't be resolved against chariots either.

 Zagman wrote:
Only one profile can suffer wounds, and the controlling player does not have permission to allocate wounds to the Chariot.

While this may be correct, your assumption that this means all wound must be allocated to the Rider has no basis in actual rules.

Unless there is wording in Psychic Shriek to avoid the roll we have to follow the rules for witchfire that tell us to roll To Hit. There is the hit you keep looking for. Now let's look at the wording a little closer, witchfire powers target a unit and therefor create wounds against the unit, just like all non-focussed witchfire and shooting attacks. The chariot has special rules when targeting the unit with a shooting attack. You would need to show exception to the witchfire's requirement to roll to hit and then to the chariot's rules of profile allocation.

Chariots:

P. 78 Vehicles NEVER take leadership tests.

Chariot Rules p.86 A chariot is unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle for the rider and a vehicle profile for the chariot. For the purpose of characteristics tests ALWAYS use the riders profile. So Jaws would have killed Necron Lord Chariots on a 3+. Good thing for them it is gone.

P 13 A characteristic test can applied any characteristic the model has except armor and leadership.

Shriek is a leadership test not a characteristics test so if the chariot counts as both a vehicle and whatever the rider is so you would never take the shriek LD test.

It is neither a leadership nor characteristic test. It has an effect that creates wounds.

 Mythra wrote:

Chariots:

P. 78 Vehicles NEVER take leadership tests.

Chariot Rules p.86 A chariot is unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle for the rider and a vehicle profile for the chariot. For the purpose of characteristics tests ALWAYS use the riders profile. So Jaws would have killed Necron Lord Chariots on a 3+. Good thing for them it is gone.

P 13 A characteristic test can applied any characteristic the model has except armor and leadership.

Shriek is a leadership test not a characteristics test so if the chariot counts as both a vehicle and whatever the rider is so you would never take the shriek LD test.

Wholly incorrect. Perhaps you should read the rules for Shriek. Feel free to quote where it says it's a leadership test to prove me wrong.

Well then even better it is a shooting attack I assign the wounds to the chariot and wounds don't affect it.

Shriek:

According to the witchfire rules p.27 "Many have profiles similar to ranged weapons." If it doesn't and you can't just make one up - you go to power and resolve it like in its description. If it does have a profile yes you do have to roll to hit. I believe you need not make to hit for Crush, Purge Soul, Haemorrhage, or Spontaneous Combustion. They have no weapon profiles and tell you specifically how to resolve them.

What is interesting is you could move your rhino flat out and still use Shriek. P. 27 "Manifesting a witchfire powers does not prevent the psykers unit from running, turbo boosting, or moving flat out." So it looks like you could move 12" use shriek then move another 6" in the shooting phase w/ a Rhino that had a psyker using psychic shriek.

 Dracos wrote:
The power does not work RAW as there is no way to roll to hit with it. Some people are claiming you can skip the to-hit roll, but that has just as much support as rolling a single die (i.e. none).

Simply put, there are no mechanics in the rules that allow psychic shriek to resolve at all.

It is therefore unsurprising that it can't be resolved against chariots either.

So if I cast enfeeble on a Rhino foes the game stop because we have no way to resolve against S or T or do we ignore the effect?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unless there is wording in Psychic Shriek to avoid the roll we have to follow the rules for witchfire that tell us to roll To Hit. There is the hit you keep looking for. Now let's look at the wording a little closer, witchfire powers target a unit and therefor create wounds against the unit, just like all non-focussed witchfire and shooting attacks. The chariot has special rules when targeting the unit with a shooting attack. You would need to show exception to the witchfire's requirement to roll to hit and then to the chariot's rules of profile allocation.

Again answer the question above. Then you equate causing wounds through the to wound roll and through the Psychic Shriek rule. Which you can't do unless you have a rule that states the 3d6-ld roll is instead of a to wound roll.

So you can allocate the hits to the Chariot all you want, we have no strength to resolve those hits against the chariot. So again either the game breaks or we ignore the process (as long as you are consistent in that decision which forces the game to break in numerous other situations). Well then even better it is a shooting attack I assign the wounds to the chariot and wounds don't affect it.  Regardless of that the unit still takes the effect.

Well then even better it is a shooting attack I assign the wounds to the chariot and wounds don't affect it. 

No rule allows you to do this. Have you read any of the rules you are trying to argue?

I'm leaning towards the "it has to effect the rider" camp. The Unit does indeed have a LD value and once the wounds are generated, they have to go to the rider. I think it has to be this way because it is the UNIT that is suffering the wounds. Either way, an FAQ would be nice.

"No rule allows you to do this. Have you read any of the rules you are trying to argue?"

Have you? P. 86 "When shooting at the chariot total up the number of successful hits". either Shriek is auto hit or roll to hit depending on which camp you are in. So.... either way this isn't a problem. "Keep the dice that hit in a pool. If there are hits with different strengths, AP values, OR SPECIAL RULES that affect saving throws or ANY WOUNDS that they inflict, split them in several pools of hits." So it looks like I can take the special rule of Shrieks 3d6 - leadership wounds and put them into a pool.

"The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to either the rider or the chariot."

Gravmyr wrote:
So basically you are advocating violating 2 sets of rules in an attempt to now create a work around to an imagined issue.... What stops you from using the two sets of rules that are already in place?

Edit: If it is a modifier you would need to show that it falls into that category. The game defines modifiers. What in the wound or modifier sections qualifies a wound as a modifier?

Edit 2: Enfeeble also specifically states it is a penalty.

the wording used in enfeeble is "suffers" the wording used in psychic shriek is "suffers" both are the same specific statements of suffering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythra wrote:

Chariots:

P. 78 Vehicles NEVER take leadership tests.

Chariot Rules p.86 A chariot is unit with a dual profile - a non vehicle for the rider and a vehicle profile for the chariot. For the purpose of characteristics tests ALWAYS use the riders profile. So Jaws would have killed Necron Lord Chariots on a 3+. Good thing for them it is gone.

P 13 A characteristic test can applied any characteristic the model has except armor and leadership.

Shriek is a leadership test not a characteristics test so if the chariot counts as both a vehicle and whatever the rider is so you would never take the shriek LD test.

you however left out

Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot.

suffering wounds is a characteristic modifier.

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 Dracos wrote:
The power does not work RAW as there is no way to roll to hit with it. Some people are claiming you can skip the to-hit roll, but that has just as much support as rolling a single die (i.e. none).

Simply put, there are no mechanics in the rules that allow psychic shriek to resolve at all.

It is therefore unsurprising that it can't be resolved against chariots either.

So if I cast enfeeble on a Rhino foes the game stop because we have no way to resolve against S or T or do we ignore the effect?

No, the game doesn't end but you are correct the rhino is unaffected. However the model+chariot are one unit, and if enfeeble was cast on the chariot and you "allocated" the hit to the chariot the chariot would be unaffected but the rider would suffer -S and -T as it is a characteristic modifer, and as per the rules for chariots if the chariot is hit by a characteristic modifier it would affect the rider.

 Mythra wrote:
"No rule allows you to do this. Have you read any of the rules you are trying to argue?"

Have you? P. 86 "When shooting at the chariot total up the number of successful hits". either Shriek is auto hit or roll to hit depending on which camp you are in. So.... either way this isn't a problem. "Keep the dice that hit in a pool. If there are hits with different strengths, AP values, OR SPECIAL RULES that affect saving throws or ANY WOUNDS that they inflict, split them in several pools of hits." So it looks like I can take the special rule of Shrieks 3d6 - leadership wounds and put them into a pool.

"The player controlling the chariot then allocates each hit pool to either the rider or the chariot."

And what from the rules you quoted allows you to assign wounds as you claimed?

I don't think anyone is claiming that the Psychic Shriek effect is linked to a hit because literally nothing tells you it is. So that is just made up. Either you roll an unknown number of dice (which of course is impossible) and roll to hit either on full bs or as snap shot (we have no way of knowing which) compare your to hit roll with either your bs required score or 6+ and then ignore the result and do the 3d6-ld or we just skip the impossible stage and jump straight to the 3d6-ld effect...

"Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model apply to both rider and Chariot."

"suffering wounds is a characteristic modifier."

If what your saying is true then when a las cannon causes wounds it always goes to the lord? Or are you saying shriek is special attack and not a shooting attack and only a characteristic modifier? Even if it is a special rule that causes wounds it says to put it in one of these pools.It doesn't become a wound till after hit and after allocation thru the pool or else all shooting would go strait to the rider since they modify wounds and there would be no need for special chariot rules. They give us those rules whether it is a hit roll or auto hit you make a pool then apply it to the rider or chariot. I see no where telling you the player attacking the chariot is free to allocate to any pool. Only the controlling player may allocate to either of the 2 profiles.

Shriek is still a shooting attack that auto hits. Chariot rules tell to you to make a pool of hits - even ones that have special rules that affect saving throws or any wounds that they inflict. Shriek has a special rule that affects the wounds it inflicts. It goes into a pool then the chariot controller assigns it to the chariot ot lord.

Shriek is still a shooting attack that auto hits. Chariot rules tell to you to make a pool of hits - even ones that have special rules that affect saving throws or any wounds that they inflict. Shriek has a special rule that affects the wounds it inflicts. It goes into a pool then the chariot controller assigns it to the chariot or lord.

Underlined has no rules support. Psychic Shriek does not generate any hits. Unless you have a rule to support that?

Psychic Shriek simply targets a unit and applies an effect to the target unit. Where is your permission to:

a) generate a hit or hits
b) attach the effect to those hit(s)

Here is the quote you seem to be missing "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described on page 158, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically." Does the power have a statement that tells you not to roll To Hit? How many effects are there of firing an Assault 3 weapon? There is one effect of the Psychic Shriek power so you roll to hit once. If it hits you perform the effect which is the roll and creation of wounds. There is no rule allowing you to allocate wounds to a vehicle so by targeting one you are causing the game to break because there is no rule that gives you permission. Now that is the only way to actually resolve the power. You can't choose to ignore the need to roll To Hit unless you have a specific rule that over rides the need under the witchfire rules. Claiming you can ignore that need to roll To Hit because the power or rules don't specifically tell you how many dice to roll is by definition creating a rule for your benefit.

Gravmyr wrote:
Here is the quote you seem to be missing "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described on page 158, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically." Does the power have a statement that tells you not to roll To Hit? How many effects are there of firing an Assault 3 weapon? There is one effect of the Psychic Shriek power so you roll to hit once. If it hits you perform the effect which is the roll and creation of wounds. There is no rule allowing you to allocate wounds to a vehicle so by targeting one you are causing the game to break because there is no rule that gives you permission. Now that is the only way to actually resolve the power. You can't choose to ignore the need to roll To Hit unless you have a specific rule that over rides the need under the witchfire rules. Claiming you can ignore that need to roll To Hit because the power or rules don't specifically tell you how many dice to roll is by definition creating a rule for your benefit.

Oh sorry I missed that please post the page and paragraph vwhere it says the number of dice you roll to hit = the number of effects a weapon has and that it defines that an Assault 3 weapon has 3 effects.

How many effects does a tesla destructor have (heavy 4 can potentially tesult in 12 hits)?

Right so he is ignoring that hole in the rules, and you are ignoring the requirement to roll to hit.

So you are both ignoring the rules that make it non-functional.

The only answer is common sense. Please post a rule that allows you to ignore the To Hit requirement. Since I can post a rule that says you need to roll To Hit, can you post a rule that says you can ignore that requirement?

Tesla, Heavy 4, has 4 effects 4 shots which can generate additional hits based off special weapon rules which tell you specifically you do not need to roll to hit to gain the benefit of.

You continue to ignore this requirement. What rule allows you to do so?

Gravmyr, if I accept that you need to roll To Hit, can you clarify (using the rules of course) how many dice to roll, and link the result of a successful To Hit roll(s) to the effect of Psychic Shriek (Scream? Whatever.)?

Man that is a fun circle. Didn't get enough of it last thread?


We get it... you have to roll to hit,but we don't know how many dice. There is no language on how to continue the game. The power is not mechanically functional.

What I don't understand is why both sides don't just admit that it is mechanically non-functional.

Wouldn't that be more sensible than each side ignoring a different part of how its broken in order to justify their position?

 Happyjew wrote:
Gravmyr, if I accept that you need to roll To Hit, can you clarify (using the rules of course) how many dice to roll, and link the result of a successful To Hit roll(s) to the effect of Psychic Shriek (Scream? Whatever.)?

The problem is if you roll 0 dice you didn't roll to hit, so you have to roll something (which being as there is no weapons profile there is no specific number for doing so)

Dracos, the ignore the To Hit roll side does admit that the powr is non-functional. Are argument, as it were, is that a successful To Hit roll is required to determine the number of attempts to Wound/Penetrate. Since there is no To Wound/Pentration roll involved, there is nothing linking the successful To Hit roll to resolving the attack.

I'm sure some one else can explain it more eloquently, but me, I like blunt.

Right so once you admit that the power is non-functional, all you are doing is criticizing each other's way of fixing it via 'house rule'.

Why is it so important that others agree that your house rule is the proper house rule?

 Dracos wrote:
Right so he is ignoring that hole in the rules, and you are ignoring the requirement to roll to hit.

So you are both ignoring the rules that make it non-functional.

I'm not ignoring the requirement to roll to hit at all. Say I cast enfeeble on a Rhino which doesn't have a T or S that I HAVE to modify. Do you:

a) Say the game breaks and call it a draw.
b) Accept that the rule cannot be resolved so has no effect?

I would choose b and apply the same logic here. You must answer a given your stance on this situation. So is the answer a or do you accept that there is no roll to hit for PS?

Interesting that you think a non-functional rule stops the game.

I think a non-functional rule requires "house ruling", not stopping the game.

I simply acknowledge that what I'm doing is make a house rule to resolve the situation.

Call me crazy on that one though, as acknowledging the fact that I'm glossing over the broken rule with a house rule means I can't tell other people to play it my way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, HIWPI (you know, the house rule) is that you roll to hit once, and failing to hit discards the power.

This interacts with Chariots by allowing them to allocate to whichever profile they want, meaning under my house rule Psychic Shriek doesn't really have an affect on Chariots.

Gravmyr wrote:
The only answer is common sense. Please post a rule that allows you to ignore the To Hit requirement. Since I can post a rule that says you need to roll To Hit, can you post a rule that says you can ignore that requirement?

Tesla, Heavy 4, has 4 effects 4 shots which can generate additional hits based off special weapon rules which tell you specifically you do not need to roll to hit to gain the benefit of.

You continue to ignore this requirement. What rule allows you to do so?

So again you fail to support your argument with rules. Please post the rule that links effect to rolls to hit and where effect for this purpose is defined.

I'm not ignoring the requirement I'm pointing out that it is non-functional.

Lets have some fun with LOGIC!

- BRB says all witchfire powers that are not blasts or templates need to roll to hit.

- Psychic Shriek is a witchfire that is not a blast or template.

- Therefore, since Psychic Shriek is a witchfire, you must roll to hit for it to properly affect the target unit.

If you reject the above, then you have a problem with logic, not anything else as it is a simple If P then Q, P therefore Q logical statement.

The problem, as it appears to be, is that since the power doesn't specify how many dice you need to roll, their brains divide by zero and go haywire or something...


My premise to resolve the dilemma is that Psychic Shriek is, for all intents and purposes, a SINGLE attack that when resolved generates a number of wounds by rolling 3d6 and subtracting the target's LD value from the number rolled.

To support this premise, we look at what we can logically and naturally infer from the language of the power. The first line says it is a Psychic Shooting attack-we know this and the dead horse has been sufficiently beaten to death, it's probably a glue-like paste by now-therefore you need to roll to hit. I would imagine it makes sense to require only a single roll to hit since it doesn't specify the number of hits and since it is only a single effect. The next sentence in the power simply says what to do after the power is successful. The simplest and most logical reading of the rule is that it does a single hit which causes 3d6-Ld in wounds, not 3d6-ld hits, which is what some people I think are trying to argue? A roughly analogous situation is how a Plasma Cannon is a single attack that has a single roll to hit but can generate multiple wounds.

So the bottom line here is that people are saying because they can't use simple powers of logical inference and reasonably come up with a solution to make the Psychic Shriek power and the BRB rules consistent in their minds, that they can all of a sudden disregard what is otherwise clearly stated and required in the BRB. Good luck with that at any tournament =/. I'd be interested to hear a regular TO's input on how they would rule on the matter and why.