Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The examples you cite actually required a to-hit roll and still do...Also, the BRB never says anywhere that all weapons must have a profile and weapon type.

Ironic accusing me of not using rules because that is exactly what you are doing, not me =/. There is no rule that allows psychic shriek (or any shooting attack) to do damage if it misses and nobody has shown any rule that says shooting attacks that miss do damage. Absent such a rule one MUST assume shooting attacks that miss fail to do damage because that is the only thing the makes sense. To say shooting attacks that miss do damage is to court the absurd.

Well the rulebook unsurprisingly disagrees with you:

BrB page 40 "Every weapon has a profile"

BrB page 40 "A shooting weapon always has one of the following types:"

The on the Psychic Shriek requiring a successful hit to resolve its effect again the BrB disagrees with you:

BrB page 198 "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership - the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result."

Nothing about that effect requiring or in anyway being linked to a passed or fail to hit roll. Compare with rolls to wound & armour pen:

BrB page 34 "To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic..."

BrB page 75 "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength..."

So they call out that this is for hits rather than expecting you to just make that up. Note how adding a to hit roll into PS causes problems with both of these rules too as you can't roll to wound or armour pen because PS has no weapon profile telling you its Strength characteristic.

So please come up with a rule that links the Psychic Shriek to a to hit roll or I'll take that as you conceding.

One thing to note here, I was pretty adamant you should roll to hit - but this was before studying non wound roll effects which relate to a hit.

For example, you have a weapon which states;
On a successful hit apply this effect. //
For each hit scored ... //
When a wound is suffered...


Those are very common phrasing for weapons and a event connected with a hit or a wound.

What troubles me about these powers is that the effect does not require in it's wording a successful hit or successful wound, which is outside the norm for something an effect, which is not a to-wound roll, does require these things.

Basically regardless of the requirement to hit, there is nothing in the rules suggesting the to hit roll relates to these powers effects at all - and the language to relate them are commonly used, but absent.

Powers could have stipulated 'On a successful roll to hit, the unit takes a leadership test...'
But they did not.

Exactly Nem they all connect to a hit a wound or at least they state "instead of rolling to wound". All these types of rules are connected to and dependant on a successful to hit roll.

Psychic Shriek, Haemmorage etc are not. Just the target suffers x effect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Except, again you need the To Hit roll to
A: Resolve the power as it is a requirement and

You actually do not need to roll to hit for Psychic Shriek, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

I never said PS dod not require a roll to hit. Psychic shriek does require a roll to hit.

A sure sign an argument if falling apart is when you contradict yourself.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Except, again you need the To Hit roll to
A: Resolve the power as it is a requirement and

You actually do not need to roll to hit for Psychic Shriek, you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

I never said PS dod not require a roll to hit. Psychic shriek does require a roll to hit.

A sure sign an argument if falling apart is when you contradict yourself.

I did not contradict myself though.

You do not need to roll to hit and Psychic Shriek requiring a roll to hit do not contradict.

I said you "do not need to roll to hit for Psychic Shriek" even though a to hit roll is required, this is because even if you miss on your to hit roll you still are instructed to "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

So while it is required, you do not need to roll to hit as the effect is not tied to a successful roll to hit.

See the difference?

Fling, is psychic shriek a witchfire? Do witchfires require a roll to hit? Guess what, the answer is yes to both.

The only reason it makes sense for a psychic power to require a roll to-hit is to make a successful to-hit roll a condition necessary to resolve the power (as to-hit rolls either pass or fail by thier very nature). To say otherwise, as mentionedd, requires an absurd result.

Also, (1) psychic shriek does have a profile-as does every psychic power (find a rule that says what info must be in every profile), and (2) not every shooting attack rolls to wound after a to-hit roll (I.e., some wargear can inflict certain effects once a to-hit roll is made).

Hemorhage, Mind War and other such powers still require a roll to hit, as well. You know why? They are witchfires.

So once again, you and everyone else in your position has failed to demonstrate why if the to-hit roll fails that the power still goes off as there is no rule that says shooting attacks that fail to hit still do any damage or have any effect. You need a rule to say such a thing, not a rule negating it as this is a permissive set of rules.

Fling, is psychic shriek a witchfire? Do witchfires require a roll to hit? Guess what, the answer is yes to both. 

Also, (1) psychic shriek does have a profile-as does every psychic power (find a rule that says what info must be in every profile), and (2) not every shooting attack rolls to wound after a to-hit roll (I.e., some wargear can inflict certain effects once a to-hit roll is made). 

Oh dear. No one has contested the first 2 points so why keep repeating them?

Well the rulebook on page 40 (and a little bit onto page 41) does indeed tell you want is on a weapon profile. Also still no weapon type mentioned I notice.

The part about weapons not all rolling to wound had me signing with pity at you. Do you want a chance to retract that? Or are you trying to make your argument ridiculius because this is an ironic troll argument where you're showing how incorrect the roll to hit argument is by taking it's side and making increasing ludicrous claims?

I've quoted the rule that says the target unit rolls 3d6-ld and suffers that many wounds. That is the permission for that to happen because it tells you it happens to the target unit. So if I target a unit with a PS and I manifest it the unit takes the 3d6-ld wounds. You now need to show denial of that permission or you need to show that permission is dependant on a successful to hit roll. Now quote the rules that say this or you are conceding.

You guys sure are persistent at ramming your own house rule down each other's throats.

RAW doesn't work since you must rule to hit but have no rule specifying that the number of dice is 1.

No matter how you play this power, you must create a house rule in order to resolve it.

As far as RAI is concerned, saying you don't need to succeed the to-hit roll in order for the power to resolve is silly imo, but house rule it however you want.

Just stop pretending that you are not house ruling it. Rationalize your house rules however you want, just don't try and sell it as RAW since the RAW is non-functional.

It is actually not a house rule, as nothing in the PS entry ties the resolution of the power to a successful roll to hit.

And so how are you doing the roll to-hit without RAW telling you how many dice?

Making a house rule that you can ignore the requirement of rolling to-hit?

That sounds like a house rule to me.

 Dracos wrote:
And so how are you doing the roll to-hit without RAW telling you how many dice?

Making a house rule that you can ignore the requirement of rolling to-hit?

That sounds like a house rule to me.

No it is not a house rule as, hit or miss, you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase Chapter Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

and the instructions in its entry do not link a successful to hit roll to the resolution of the power, as you are not rolling To Wound with PS.

Right I understand the RAW lacks a connection of the to-hit roll and the resolution of the power, but you have yet to demonstrate an exception to the rule that you must still perform the to-hit roll.

Please cite the exception, or admit that you are making a house rule that allows you to avoid performing the to-hit roll.

Dracos is correct. The statement "Psychic Shriek is a witchfire" adds in a requirement of a To-Hit roll.

While DeathReaper points out that the power itself doesn't mention a successful hit being required, that does not in itself grant permission to ignore the statement that a witchfire requires a To-Hit roll. The To-Hit roll, while it may be meaningless, MUST be made. You cannot just shrug and skip it because you don't know how to do it. The game says you must roll the dice, so you must roll them, unless the game says you do not have to. That is RAW.

Hit or miss you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase Chapter Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

Therefore a roll to hit is not needed RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Hit or miss you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase Chapter Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

Therefore a roll to hit is not needed RAW.

It's not needed, but you have no permission to skip the step RAW. Agreed?

 Dracos wrote:
Right I understand the RAW lacks a connection of the to-hit roll and the resolution of the power, but you have yet to demonstrate an exception to the rule that you must still perform the to-hit roll.

Please cite the exception, or admit that you are making a house rule that allows you to avoid performing the to-hit roll.

We went through this. The rules simply stop functioning if you try to do everything they hint at you doing. Like for instance resolving Psychic Shriek against a vehicle, or Enfeeble or indeed cast any psychic powers ever. Why? Because we are told that the number of psychic powers a psyker can cast in a turn is dependent on Mastery Level. However we are not told that dependency so we have a vague rule telling us to do something but not telling us how so we have to ignore it. Just like with focussed witchfires and PS we are given instruction to do something but nothing tells us how so we ignore because we have literally no other choice.

This approach has to be taken due to imprecise fluff text that often precedes rules. This fluff text generally includes instructions to do stuff or hints at how real world situations are represented but without clear definable processes for us to take. In these situations we ignore those instructions because they can not be followed.

DeathReaper wrote:Hit or miss you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase Chapter Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

Therefore a roll to hit is not needed RAW.

"Witchfire
Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically. "

Your description of RAW does not match what is said in the rule book. I understand your position, but I can't help but feel like you are refusing to admit that you lack permission to skip this step as you keep insisting you have.

FlingitNow wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
Right I understand the RAW lacks a connection of the to-hit roll and the resolution of the power, but you have yet to demonstrate an exception to the rule that you must still perform the to-hit roll.

Please cite the exception, or admit that you are making a house rule that allows you to avoid performing the to-hit roll.

We went through this. The rules simply stop functioning if you try to do everything they hint at you doing. Like for instance resolving Psychic Shriek against a vehicle, or Enfeeble or indeed cast any psychic powers ever. Why? Because we are told that the number of psychic powers a psyker can cast in a turn is dependent on Mastery Level. However we are not told that dependency so we have a vague rule telling us to do something but not telling us how so we have to ignore it. Just like with focussed witchfires and PS we are given instruction to do something but nothing tells us how so we ignore because we have literally no other choice.

This approach has to be taken due to imprecise fluff text that often precedes rules. This fluff text generally includes instructions to do stuff or hints at how real world situations are represented but without clear definable processes for us to take. In these situations we ignore those instructions because they can not be followed.

So your argument that you are following the rules is that they stop working if you follow them? Wow.

So you admit the rules don't work as written, but still insist that the way you fix them to make them functional is RAW. Incredible.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Hit or miss you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase Chapter Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

Therefore a roll to hit is not needed RAW.

It's not needed, but you have no permission to skip the step RAW. Agreed?

Permission to skip is in the rule is actually in the rule right here (Though not explicitly).

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase section Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

If you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." that does not include a to hit roll since we are not given instruction on how many dice to roll, so we just do not roll any and resolve the effects anyway.

It clearly states it is a witchfire, which requires the to-hit roll. That is certainly part of the instructions of the power. Or are you asserting that the power does not specify it is a witchfire?

It specifies it is a witchfire, but also lacks a profile so that alone tells us that the roll to hit is not needed and we can "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

The same for focussed witchfire powers like Haemorrhage, or Purge Soul, they do not mention a roll to hit in the entry so RAW you do not need to roll to hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It specifies it is a witchfire, but also lacks a profile so that alone tells us that the roll to hit is not needed and we can "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry."

The same for focussed witchfire powers like Haemorrhage, it does not mention a roll to hit in the entry so RAW you do not need to roll to hit.

There are two possibilities.

Either:
A) That permission is real and exists in the book in text form. If this is the case, then surely you can quote it.

or

B) You are making up permission (quite reasonably) to ignore directions you are unable to execute.

Which is it (and citation if A please).

It is A.

Permission to skip is in the rule is actually in the rule right here (Though not explicitly).

"Assuming the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not negate it with a successful Deny the Witch test, the power has been successfully manifested. Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." (The Psychic Phase section Resolve Psychic power sub-section, 1st sentence in bold).

If you "Resolve its effects according to the instructions in its entry." that does not include a to hit roll since we are not given instruction on how many dice to roll, so we just do not roll any and resolve the effects anyway.

Alright haha I guess you just can't admit it. No worries!

So your argument that you are following the rules is that they stop working if you follow them? Wow. 

So you admit the rules don't work as written, but still insist that the way you fix them to make them functional is RAW. Incredible. 

So your argument is that you need a houserule for the following situations:

Roll to hit with PS or focussed witchfires
Roll to wound with those same powers (no strength profile)
Cast any powers with any Psyker (no dependency to work out numbers a psyker can cast based on his mastery level)
Make the 3d6-ld roll against a vehicle
Apply the resulting wounds to a vehicle.
Remove casualties as they must be placed on one side but we are never told which side (page 13)

Yes? Those all require Houserules to resolve correct? Because I'm fairly confident in all those situations except for the PS roll to hit you would have concluded the rule does nothing (you make no to wound roll, cast as many powers as you have dice for, the vehicle suffers no effect from Psychic Shriek, you place the models where ever you want when they die).

Classic deflection! Well done!

Not really just showing the inconsistency of your approach.

Haha you made up a bunch of opinions I might have and then call me inconsistent for holding them! Love it!

 Dracos wrote:
Classic deflection! Well done!

This is all he is doing (along with the others maintaining his position), he can't cite an appropriate rule to support his position. He keeps citing a specific rule but as the great Inigo Montoya said "you keep using that [rule] but I do not think it means what you think it means..."

FYI Fling, the rule that says "resolve the power according to its entry" does not mean you get to disregard any other rules that affect that specific entry, or other parts of the entry for that matter. For example, part of the entry for Psychic Shriek involves the words "witch fire" which you are blatantly disregarding. Witch fire means you need to make a successful to-hit roll as all BS based, non-blast, non-template shooting attacks do. Asking someone to cite a rule that says otherwise whereby "only successful shooting attacks can resolve damage" is a bit silly as the rules in the BRB essentially amount to saying exactly that. You want my position to demonstrate water is wet while your position is being asked why water isn't wet...Which proposition makes the most sense?

Indeed, simply resolving Psychic Shriek regardless of the to-hit roll's result leaves us with an absurd result. Psychic Shriek only affecting the target if a single to-hit roll is successful does not result in an absurd result and is in fact supported by how the game works in general. A non-absurd result should always be preferable to an absurd one.

Finally, NO major tournament will ever rule or play Psychic Shriek the way you think it should be played...You know why? Because it doesn't make any sense to.

Mortetvie your position is "I assume I'm right because it's obvious". You concession accepted.