Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After reading a superb fan-fic about Incubi (Written by our very own Thor over on the Dark City) it occurred to me, are they the most accomplished fighters? They stick in at Ws 5, which is the highest you rare like to see on non-command units and it means they hit most other CC units on 3's. So fluff-wise, that makes them more skilled then Aspect Warriors who are stuck as Ws 4, as well as more skilled then even Space Marine Honor Guard who are also stuck at Ws 4. They are also Initiative 5, which while standard for Eldar, you have to remember that the Incubi are doing this in 3+ armour (Striking Scorpions do this) carrying a BIG ASS SWORD, so that must count for something. Fluffwise, that makes them faster then Marines, which are already miles faster then humans while being able to keep up with other, less heavily clad Eldar. Equipment wise they have a 3+ armour save, whoop di do your thinking, but that is surprisingly good for Dark Eldar. At any rate, they carry effective armour that doesn't slow them down much. They have 2 attacks base, but i will off set that due to them using a 2 handed sword, but still that makes them effective with a BIG ASS SWORD as a guy with a small sword and a pistol. Weapon wise, i think they have the best non-unique weapon in the game save for the Scorpion Claw. AP 2 at Initiative with + 1 strength is amazing when almost all other AP 2 weapons are unwieldy, so fluffwise that is one of the best weapons in existence.

So were would you put Incubi on the badass scale? Would they be able to beat up a Space Marine or the sort fluffwise?

Fluff wise, eldar aspect warrior can kill Space Marine on one on one combat. Scorpions and banshee can do it pretty regularly. Of course, the opposite is possible. If you look at it purely fluff wise, Banshees are probably the most deadly close combat unit you can find. Power weapon are much more deadly fluff wise than game wise and their masks paralyse you just long enough to cut you to pieces. Incubis on the other hand have to kill in single combat at least one aspect warrior to integrate their rank so I think they can murder even vangard veterants. Yes they are in my opinion some f the worst thing you can fight in close combat.

Wyches are very sadly badly stated in 40k...

Harlequins are also consumate Warriors - as are Aspect warriors so fluffwise I would say that are amongst the best that the Eldar can field......

An Incubi should be able to best a Astartes with relative ease on a level playing field in close combat, Genestealers versus Incubi would be a good fight.

I always thought they'd be able to utterly murder a SM vet in 1v1 if they got the chance. Mix of huge-ass sword and ridiculous reflexes always made me think of anime style samurai, y'know, jumping all over the place whilst slicing crap up.

They are certainly one of the most deadly units a marine can face in close combat, not only are they heavily armored, highly skilled, armed with terrifying weapons on top of being dark eldar. They also have the tormenter helm which seems to work similar to the banshee mask. Ultimately if a marine is forced to face one in close combat he does not stand much of a chance of even surviving let alone winning.

Incubi are highly skilled martial adepts who devote their lives two two things: Fighting, and vigilance.

Because of their role as bodyguards, the Incubi are actually slightly less fighty than their Craftworld Eldar equivalents, the Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions.

Of course, the game stats don't represent the fact they're multi-class characters, so eh.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
They are certainly one of the most deadly units a marine can face in close combat, not only are they heavily armored, highly skilled, armed with terrifying weapons on top of being dark eldar. They also have the tormenter helm which seems to work similar to the banshee mask. Ultimately if a marine is forced to face one in close combat he does not stand much of a chance of even surviving let alone winning.

It depends. The Incubus has the advantage of a good weapon, which gives him an edge if the Marine has just a basic combat knife or chainsword or whatever. He is also faster. The Marine, however, is tougher.

If he is up against a Vanguard Veteran with a power sword or something, you may find that your Incubus will have a significantly more difficult battle on his hands.

I consider it to be something like

Guardian < Kabalite < Aspect Warrior = Tactical Marine (Assuming bolter and chainsword) = Wych < Incubus < Exarch = Klaivex

Fights between Eldar and Space Marines always seemed like lengthy, bloody affairs to me. The Astartes just can't catch the dodgy basterds, and no matter how much the Eldar strikes the plates and joints of the foe, the human just won't die!

For all his superhuman speed, the Astartes still is nowhere near being able to catch the Wych striking his armour ineffectively five times per second.

Or something to that end.

Genestealers are near the top of the ascending scale of non-character infantry killyness. Probably not as lethal as a thousands-of-years-of-experience Exarch/Klaivex/Harlequin, but fast and strong enough to make any mistake almost certainly a lethal one.

Plus they are just born that way, no training needed what-so-ever. Which is kind of cool.

Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians are up there as well.

The Incubi are probably (fluffwise at least) the deadliest enemies in the universe. I mean, they even forge weapons from the broken soulstones of an Exarch. I don't think there is much who can stand up against an experienced Incubus, let alone a Klaivex or Hierarch. They have what might be the best equipment in the galaxy, thousands of years of the most intense training imaginable, they live and survive in one of the galaxy's most dangerous environments and they have plenty of combat experience against some of the galaxy's most deadly foes. Fluffwise, even an ordinary DE Warrior already is a close match to a Space Marine, and an Incubi is many, many levels above that of a Warrior.

 Ashiraya wrote:
For all his superhuman speed, the Astartes still is nowhere near being able to catch the Wych striking his armour ineffectively five times per second.

Or something to that end.

Astartes armour is really no issue at all for the Eldar, considering that half of them don't even wear helmets

And people say Marine fans are bad.

And people say Marine fans are bad.

A mean jab, but a good one. Yes, incubies are probably amongst the most dangerous thing you can face. But yes honor guards, paladins, lychguard, Triarch pretorians, genestealer, harlequins, tyranid warrior, lictor, banshees, all brands of imperial assassins or a very pist bullgryn with a power maul could give them the fight of their lives.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
And people say Marine fans are bad.

Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.

Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.

Except... You know... No.

In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.

Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.

The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.

Except... You know... No.

In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.

Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.

The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.

You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.

I think that some people (pro-Incubi and anti-Incubi) are taking this question and running off in their own direction with it.

Saying that the Incubi can defeat the Space Marine in some sort of 'gladiatorial combat' doesn't insult the Incubi, or diminish the Space Marine.

Incubi are probably much superior to Space Marines in melee combat. They have good armor, deadly melee weapons, incredible reflexes, and amazing skill with their weapons.

Space Marines are also trained to use Jump Packs, Bikes, and Heavy Weapons. Marines (after scout training) typically train as a Devastator, before moving into the assault squads, then, once fully trained, move into Tactical squads. It's not reflected in the game, but a Marine would be expected to be able to pick up a Lascannon and use it (or a plasma gun), or drive a Rhino, or use a bike or landspeeder. The marine is expected to be trained and proficient with a wide array of equipment that the model, in one game, isn't allowed to pick up and put down during the game.

The Marine is also expected to be able to fight in void combat (even without a helmet for a limited period of time), underwater (again, even without a helmet), and for long periods without sleep, food, or water. The marine is expected to be able to survive environmental conditions, diseases, and poisons, that would be fatal for most mortals, and to fight on with injuries that would be crippling to most mortals. He's also expected to be able to recover from crippling injuries in hours or days. None of those things are even intended to be represented in a single game on the tabletop. It's not fair to the marine to present the Incubi as 'more badass' because he would win in a one on one melee fight. That's not the only measure of badass.

The Marine (in the fluff) is an insanely well-rounded, cross-trained soldier expected to provide active military service for decades or even centuries. That doesn't mean that a highly skilled, intensely focused melee specialist like an Incubi wouldn't take him apart in a fair fight. I think that the marine would normally endeavor to make sure that the fight wasn't fair (shoot him from over there, lob a grenade at his head, bomb him from orbit). The marine isn't supposed to be a focused melee combatant to the near exclusion of everything else. That's not saying that Incubi are pushovers, either, but that their expected skill set is demanding, but different. It's important to recognize the Incubi as the near-masters of the particular field of martial endeavor that they have chosen. They aren't great 'all-rounders' because they have chosen to devote themselves to mastering a particular aspect of war.

Da Butcha wrote:
I think that some people (pro-Incubi and anti-Incubi) are taking this question and running off in their own direction with it.

Saying that the Incubi can defeat the Space Marine in some sort of 'gladiatorial combat' doesn't insult the Incubi, or diminish the Space Marine.

Incubi are probably much superior to Space Marines in melee combat. They have good armor, deadly melee weapons, incredible reflexes, and amazing skill with their weapons.

Space Marines are also trained to use Jump Packs, Bikes, and Heavy Weapons. Marines (after scout training) typically train as a Devastator, before moving into the assault squads, then, once fully trained, move into Tactical squads. It's not reflected in the game, but a Marine would be expected to be able to pick up a Lascannon and use it (or a plasma gun), or drive a Rhino, or use a bike or landspeeder. The marine is expected to be trained and proficient with a wide array of equipment that the model, in one game, isn't allowed to pick up and put down during the game.

The Marine is also expected to be able to fight in void combat (even without a helmet for a limited period of time), underwater (again, even without a helmet), and for long periods without sleep, food, or water. The marine is expected to be able to survive environmental conditions, diseases, and poisons, that would be fatal for most mortals, and to fight on with injuries that would be crippling to most mortals. He's also expected to be able to recover from crippling injuries in hours or days. None of those things are even intended to be represented in a single game on the tabletop. It's not fair to the marine to present the Incubi as 'more badass' because he would win in a one on one melee fight. That's not the only measure of badass.

The Marine (in the fluff) is an insanely well-rounded, cross-trained soldier expected to provide active military service for decades or even centuries. That doesn't mean that a highly skilled, intensely focused melee specialist like an Incubi wouldn't take him apart in a fair fight. I think that the marine would normally endeavor to make sure that the fight wasn't fair (shoot him from over there, lob a grenade at his head, bomb him from orbit). The marine isn't supposed to be a focused melee combatant to the near exclusion of everything else. That's not saying that Incubi are pushovers, either, but that their expected skill set is demanding, but different. It's important to recognize the Incubi as the near-masters of the particular field of martial endeavor that they have chosen. They aren't great 'all-rounders' because they have chosen to devote themselves to mastering a particular aspect of war.

Thank you that exactly what I wanted to say, the incubi are horrifying in close combat, but they don't have near the same level versatility that a Space Marine does. Just like in table top if you can't kill it in close combat just shoot it.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.

Except... You know... No.

In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.

Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.

The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.

You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.

I am not saying the Marine would roflstomp him. The Incubi would probably win, but it would not be a quick kill. He'd in all likelihood win, I give you that, though.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:
The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.

You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
And people say Marine fans are bad.

Yes discussing how deadly a unit is in the eldar army is comparable to people thinking their marines are invincible and will always win no matter what. Anyway Incubi are certainly one of the most dangerous units you can face in close combat, but there are multiple other units who are at least as dangerous if not more so. Like aspect warriors the Incubi are highly skilled, disciplined, and very well equipped killers who few can even hope in matching.

Ashiraya
A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine. Only the most experienced and well equipped marine such as a veteran with something like a storm shield would even have a chance of winning a fight with a incubi. Also remember that wyches for example would not just attack the hardest parts of the marine's armor, they aim for vital points like the eye slits or the throat, Jes himself said they are more then capable of killing a marine with a knife.

To use a tired meme.

>Says discussion is different from Marine fans declaring their chosen men are the best.

>Details how their chosen men are the best.

I do agree with you, though. I'm just ribbing you Space Elf fans.

Tsk tsk I'd bet on a Death company trooper over a incubi

No, I imagine Eversor Assassins are the most dangerous close quarters killers as individuals.

Harlequin Solitaires.

As far as stats are concerned, 180 points of Daemonettes (a troop choice, mind you) will brutally sodomize 220 points of Incubi on the charge, and would still kill them if they were charged instead, albeit while taking much higher casualties in return.

I don't blame Incubi for that though, as Slaaneshi daemons are tailor-made to slaughter MEQ.

From a fluff perspective, Incubi are certified badasses. Badass enough to casually son Space Marines? Probably not, but an Incubi would certainly give a Marine a run for its money, if not outright win.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

A marine might be physically tougher, but the klaive incubi use not only cuts through even the toughest armor it also greatly enhances the user's strength. Combine with their superior equivalent to power armor( in the sense that it dose not even way down the user nor make a sound when moving) and the incapacitating effects of the tormentor helms, most of the time the incubi would slaughter a space marine.

Except... You know... No.

In a way I'd almost argue PA is superior to Warsuits. Warsuits are more silent, for sure, but that is entirely irrelevant in a situation like we are discussing. Do you know how the black carapace functions? For a Marine, wearing armour is like wearing nothing at all. No matter how lightweight or skintight Warsuits are, they simply can't match this without similar neural interface technology, which they do not use.

Incubi are deadly, and they would slaughter a Guardsman squad in a few seconds, but they are not that deadly.

The way Klaives increase the wearer's strength is the way a Relic Blade or Big Choppa does. It's simply two-handed. Nothing more esoteric than that. Game mechanics.

You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.

Wait, wait. For a fledgling incubi in training to become a true incubi, he has to kill a true incubi first? So basically, you can never swell the numbers of the Incubi BUT every one killed in combat (not part of the training), means there's one less potential Incubi EVER..... that's kinda stupid imo.

I doubt they're capable of killing a nurgle plague marine this easilly. Even fluffwise. And they're on par with a regular noizemarine that are totally balls out insane and fearless to boot. If a noize marine carries a power sword, they'll most likely die simultaniously. Thus, noize marine wins out the exchange cause he's much more likely to enjoy dying.

I think that noize marine is at least on par with a kabalite warrior cause he's as fast and skilled as an incubus and even has a luxury of being way tougher.

While a plague marine is surely super-tough but he's relatively slow and it's a bit hard to win a combat when you're beheaded faster than you realize you're fighting allready...even for a plague marine.

You see, incubi are deadly warriors, but they do have phisical limitations. No matter how fast and skilled you are, there are just some things you can't hurt. And there are some other warriors that are as fast and skilled as you are.

Nooooo.

The award for best martial killers would belong to something like Imperial Assassins, Daemonettes, Warp Talons, or Bloodletters. Incubi are certainly better than Astartes (up to a point, aforementioned Warp Talons in my post would sodomize them, as would vanguard veterans), but they certainly aren't the best. But Warp Talons especially would murder the hell out of Incubis thanks to being a lite version of Freddy Kruger that can still teleport you into hell and flay you alive.

What about nobz. And meganobz ? Do they stay a chance they slow but strong

 darkflame182 wrote:
What about nobz. And meganobz ? Do they stay a chance they slow but strong

Strength means little to nothing when you have the fighting skill of a human child and telegraph your moves like an oncoming freight train.

 darkflame182 wrote:
What about nobz. And meganobz ? Do they stay a chance they slow but strong

They would be easy prey for a Incubi. Perhaps not a Meganob because of their good armor but I don't know what their swords can do. They suffer from being slow which isn't a good trait to have when fighting DEldar. Orks want to shoot them.

The kunnin' orks aren't fighting Incubi in one on one combat. Their either dakka-ing the crap out of them or having their boyz back 'em up. So a nob versus an Incubus...he's probably toast. But a nob and a pack of boyz? He's probably got a shot.

Orks are inhumanly strong, but aren't particularly adept at single combat, barring some notable exceptions. Snikrot and Ghazkull spring to mind for different reasons.

Much as I love 'em I have to say they rank on the lower end of 'Martial Killers.' They're brutal, yes. In numbers they wreak savage havoc on enemy lines. They can even grow to enormous size, but orks don't really train. They love a good scrap and seek them out, gaining experience as they fight and kill. An average Nob will never accrue the level of training or expertise that an incubus has in hand to hand combat before he himself is killed.

I'd rank purifiers up there if we're talking about fluff only. Their table top representation is certainly not up to par, but they do have many rigorous trials to complete. And, you know, they're Grey Knights.