Are Incubi the best martial killers?

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**TheRedWingArmada**

Khorne Berzerkers... or pretty much ANY Chaos Space Marine. Why? Because victory means different things to different people. In the case of Chaos Marines? If I kill you, I win. Doesn't matter if you kill me too.

Jus sayin...

And if we're gonna talk tops, then Kharne the Betrayer gets in there against w/e else is left. Probably getting off track, but yeah, there is that.

And speaking of Warp Talons v. Incubi, Fear? So hitting on 6's unless they're fearless, and Warp Talons get their Daemon saves. >D + the potential (albeit garbage) for Blind could also screw up that charging squad of Incubi. But still Daemons if we're talking about fluffy hypotheticals.

Chaos = Everyones worst nightmare.

**Nightwolf829**

Warhammer 40k lore consistency is garbage. Whether or not the Eldar or Marine would come out on top speed-wise varies quite a bit from author to author. Typically Eldar are portrayed as being faster (with deviations as quoted earlier), but are also depicted as being as fragile as a human being. This is really fine. So an Incubi beats a marine in close quarters combat? Allow the Eldar their due. Marines have enough advantages as is.

That said. I am not sure why marine players -want- their marines to be faster fluff-wise (as well as stronger, more well rounded, tougher, etc). Isn't being the best at everything really boring? Doesn't it degrade their victories by making them assured? This seems silly. Everyone should get there day in the sun.

**Ignatius**

This entire thread just reminds me of a 40k version of Spike's Deadliest Warrior. So that's how I'll look at it.

To me, Incubi measure up at least on par with other dedicated CC units and marines of many of the reasons mentioned here. A Klaivex on the other hand, is a pure bad mother. They are a heck of a lot better than even the Incubi and probably wouldn't have a problem killing marines.

As I said, if this was Deadliest Warrior I'd put Incubi at about 55% wins and Warp Talons at 45% simply for their speed and weapon combination.

I don't think it's fair to write off the Klaive like has been done. While the fact that it is AP 2 really doesn't mean much about killing terminators, it doesn't have +1 strength because they just feel like giving it to it. As much as it may seem like the game and fluff have no similarity, the strength increase is there for a reason.

**Wyzilla**

Ignatius wrote:
This entire thread just reminds me of a 40k version of Spike's Deadliest Warrior. So that's how I'll look at it.

To me, Incubi measure up at least on par with other dedicated CC units and marines of many of the reasons mentioned here. A Klaivex on the other hand, is a pure bad mother. They are a heck of a lot better than even the Incubi and probably wouldn't have a problem killing marines.

As I said, it this was Deadliest Warrior I'd put Incubi at about 55% wins and Warp Talons at 45% simply for their speed and weapon combination.

I don't think it's fair to write off the Klaive like has been done. While the fact that it is AP 2 really doesn't mean much about killing terminators, it doesn't have +1 strength because they just feel like giving it to it. As much as it may seem like the game and fluff have no similarity, the strength increase is there for a reason.

Warp Talons simply teleport right on top of you and either kill you there or drag you back into the Warp. There is no fight. It's like trying to beat an Eldar Warp Spider in a shootout, it doesn't work. You just die.

**Furyou Miko**

Wyzilla wrote:

Warp Talons simply teleport right on top of you and either kill you there or drag you back into the Warp. There is no fight. It's like trying to beat an Eldar Warp Spider in a shootout, it doesn't work. You just die.

Or burn to death horribly because you think a broken bit of wall is going to protect you from three thousand degrees Celsius of Imperial justice.

**TheCustomLime**

Furyou Miko wrote:
For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.

The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!

So he is a 40k jedi!

I guess whoever who can do that is a master duelist. If you can predict where your opponent will go then you pretty much have him. So lets add people like Eisenhorn to the list.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
They stick in at Ws 5, which is the highest you rare like to see on non-command units and it means they hit most other CC units on 3's. So fluff-wise, that makes them more skilled then Aspect Warriors who are stuck as Ws 4, as well as more skilled then even Space Marine Honor Guard who are also stuck at Ws 4. They are also Initiative 5, which while standard for Eldar, you have to remember that the Incubi are doing this in 3+ armour (Striking Scorpions do this) carrying a BIG ASS SWORD, so that must count for something. Fluffwise, that makes them faster then Marines, which are already miles faster then humans while being able to keep up with other, less heavily clad Eldar. Equipment wise they have a 3+ armour save, whoop di do your thinking, but that is surprisingly good for Dark Eldar. At any rate, they carry effective armour that doesn't slow them down much. They have 2 attacks base, but i will off set that due to them using a 2 handed sword, but still that makes them effective with a BIG ASS SWORD as a guy with a small sword and a pistol. Weapon wise, i think they have the best non-unique weapon in the game save for the Scorpion Claw. AP 2 at Initiative with + 1 strength is amazing when almost all other AP 2 weapons are unwieldy, so fluffwise that is one of the best weapons in existence.

DCA comes with the same WS, a better initiative, the same number of attacks, S4, and a 5+ invulnerable save because they are just that good at avoiding blows. With two power weapons.
So, yeah, Incubi will likely roflstomp about any marine unit, but DCA are even better, and would turn those marines into mincemeat even faster.
Keep in mind that the DCA are only unmodified humans.

**Furyou Miko**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.

The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!

So he is a 40k jedi!

I guess whoever who can do that is a master duelist. If you can predict where your opponent will go then you pretty much have him. So lets add people like Eisenhorn to the list.

He absolutely is a 40k Jedi. His favourite use of his psychic powers is actually something he calls The Will - he enhances his voice with amazing powers of suggestion and tells people what he wants them to do. For example, in his very first appearance, he uses it to force two chaos cultists to just stand up out of cover and let him shoot them.

Also, before he had his force sword, he had a power sword. That was an 'older model that, rather than a energy field around a physical blade, projected a beam of pure energy'.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
DCA comes with the same WS, a better initiative, the same number of attacks, S4, and a 5+ invulnerable save because they are just that good at avoiding blows. With two power weapons.
So, yeah, Incubi will likely roflstomp about any marine unit, but DCA are even better, and would turn those marines into mincemeat even faster.
Keep in mind that the DCA are only unmodified humans.

I wouldn't say that they were 'unmodified humans'. Many Death Cults rise amongst Imperial nobility, and they all use performance-enhancing drugs. That S4 I5 comes from somewhere.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Many Death Cults rise amongst Imperial nobility

Were did you get that from ?

**Void__Dragon**

Furyou Miko wrote:
For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.

The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!

Eisenhorn has deflected them even after they were fired though.

There's a simpler explanation: Las bolts don't operate like real lasers.

**PhillyT**

Genestealers are faster, stronger, tougher, and better fighters. How can an incubi even be considered? And that is just game stats.

If you don't shoot a gene stealer, you die.

As far as a veteran Marine versus an incubi, Marines train in all aspects of combat. They can't be expected to out fight an incubi in hand to hand. But they can probably put 5 - 10 bolted rounds on him before he even gets within range.

**TheCustomLime**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
For you or I, it's guessing. For Eisenhorn, its literal combat precognition, no guesswork involved.

The problem with your problem is that it doesn't matter - even if its just a guess, it works!

Eisenhorn has deflected them even after they were fired though.

There's a simpler explanation: Las bolts don't operate like real lasers.

Or the author doesn't understand physics. It's a common issue in Sci-Fi.

**PhillyT**

The shots from las guns aren't really lasers are they? They are described as energy packets fired from the gun, like bolts from Star Wars. They aren't going light speed.

**TheCustomLime**

Lexicanum sez:

"The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other laser weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion."

**PhillyT**

Which isn't actually what happens when a laser strikes something, nor is it really possible given the technology we know of concerning lasguns.

If you can charge a lasgun battery in a fire, there is no way it can pack enough energy to do a focused laser beam projected over the distances we see with any real power.

Even with the magic of Warhammer technology, we have enough evidence and information to say that the transfer of energy would make that characterization impossible.

BEsides, that is one source. Several novels describe lasguns as firing bolts, not a focused beam.

**TheCustomLime**

Advances in battery and laser tech could result in man portable Laser projectors. Also, Sci-fi as a whole has a tendency to make Lasers fire bolts so I would chalk this up to authors not understanding physics unless they make a point of the Lasgun not being an actual Laser projector.

Also, the 6th Ed rule book says it fires "Packets of Laser energy" too.

**PhillyT**

THere isn't enough energy in a wood camp fire to charge a battery enough to do anything but power even a single shot as described in the lexicanium entry. Even with 100% transfer efficiency.

We need enormous generators to produce the laser interdictor weapons that shoot down missiles. Given what we know of the power associated with lasguns, and the fact that the las shots can be seen, they aren't laser beams in the traditional sense since you can't actually see a laser unless it is fired through a medium.

**TheCustomLime**

That is true, yes. A lot of aspects of 40k do not really make much sense when scrutinized closely like the Tyranids or the design of Leman Russ tanks. Or Lasguns, apparently.

**PhillyT**

But it is still fun!

I hate the flashlight concept of lasguns. I like the thought of lasers fired as visible bolts instead. Melta guns on the other hand are described more as traditional lasers with no real visible beam, just a beginning and a ruinous ending.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.

I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!

With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.

**Furyou Miko**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
Many Death Cults rise amongst Imperial nobility

Were did you get that from ?

Malleus, by Dan Abnett.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.

I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!

With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.

Space Hulk shows what really happens when Genestealers get into combat with Marines. They murderise them, even Terminators. Heck, in Space Hulk the game, Terminator armour doesn't even provide a saving throw, its that useless.

Ah... 13th Legion has a really epic Genestealer, although I can't remember how it dies. Overloading powerplants I think, they don't really fight it directly.

**Ashiraya**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Genestealer vs an Incubi would indeed be a great fight, but i wouldn't put the ball squarely in the Genestealers court. If anything, it's the In-Game stats of the Genestealers that seem over done by the fluff i've read which seems to run along the lines of : Ciaphias Cain encounters Genestealer! Cain duels with Stealer and doesn't seem to be pressed to hard! Someone guns down Stealer before it gets the upper hand.

I don't think i've read a single piece of fluff that shows them being as deadly as there stats portray, Space Marines seem to handle them well enough even in combat, Las-bolts seem to kill them almost as easy as a Human and if you block one of their attacks the Genestealer loses and arm!

With that in mind, i think an Incubi would win a fight against a Genestealer. They have great armour to protect them from glancing blows (Carapace Armour works to deflect glancing blows, so a War suit will do just fine), they have comparable speed and fighting prowess, also the rather minor thing that the Genestealer needs to be in arms length of you while the Incubi carries a BIG ASS SWORD over half his own height.

That may have something to do with Cain being Cain.

He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ashiraya wrote:
He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.

Why would the Ecclesiarchy make him a Living Saint? He is not particularly religious, and neither is his “Hero of the Imperium” alter-ego

.
Well, they could make him a Living Saint if he ever save a Shrine world or something, but the Ecclesiarchy being the Ecclesiarchy, we would have heard about it. They like to make big deals out of things

.
And in case that was what you mean, Living Saint is just a title you get for being sanctified while still alive. It does not give you superpowers. Cain is just pretty damn good at what he does.

**ClassicCarraway**

Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

You just proved why the Incubi warsuit is superior to power armor ( note I only talking about it terms of combat between the two, not the other functions the power armor has like life support etc.) , it does not need additional equipment or enchantments in order to provide incredible protection without hindering the user. Page 31of the Dark Eldar codex in the Incubi entry states states the process a incubi has to go through to become the killer that he is. First he has to visit one of the shrines were and survive fighting the other aspirants before facing a full fledged incubi in single combat and killing him then taking his armor . He then has to face an aspect warrior from an craftworld and kill them in combat, take and shatter their spirit stone and reforge it into a tormenter before finally becoming a true Incubi. Consider the fact that aspect warriors focus nothing else then perfecting a particularly style of killing it takes a truly skilled individual to best one in single combat. Remember the incubi are incredible killers in a dimensional world literally filled with nothing but the most evil, sadistic killers in the galaxy. When you take in account their skill, tech and weaponry most marines would not stand a chance in close combat. Again a veteran space marine with the proper equipment and a course leaders like a captain can take them on, but it would not be easy.

By the rationale of the bolded part, wouldn't that mean there was only ever one Incubus, since, you know, they keep killing each other to join up? By this bit o' fluff, Incubus ranks would never increase, and they would never be able to replenish battlefield casualties, so if the fluff were "true", then the Incubi would have died out a long time ago.

I think you should really compare rank versus rank here. An Incubus is so far above the rank and file Dark Eldar, comparing them to a rank and file marine is a bit disingenuous. Better to compare them to veteran marines and their ilk. I dare say in a one-on-one fight, an Assault Terminator (which is closer in rank and function) could very likely destroy an Incubus. I'd compare it to the battle between the Mountain and the Red Vyper. All it takes is one single hit from the terminator, and that Incubus's head is caved in.

**Ashiraya**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
He is presumably a Living Saint already if a quarter of the stuff he's done is true.

Why would the Ecclesiarchy make him a Living Saint? He is not particularly religious, and neither is his “Hero of the Imperium” alter-ego .
Well, they could make him a Living Saint if he ever save a Shrine world or something, but the Ecclesiarchy being the Ecclesiarchy, we would have heard about it. They like to make big deals out of things .
And in case that was what you mean, Living Saint is just a title you get for being sanctified while still alive. It does not give you superpowers. Cain is just pretty damn good at what he does.

No, as in, he must be one of those flying superpowered people if a quarter of the stuff he has done is true.

Or he's just Master Chief.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ashiraya wrote:
No, as in, he must be one of those flying superpowered people if a quarter of the stuff he has done is true.

.
He never flied. At least never without the help of a shuttle or a spaceship. He can totally jump super high, though.
He is totally made of awesome, though.

**Ashiraya**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

He is totally made of power fantasy, though.

I can but agree, honestly.

You think me bad for liking my spuhhs mohriins big and stronk?

**Mr Morden**

He is also the (extremely useful) pawn (or perhaps Knight) of a Inquisitior.

In fact many of his many women are not only equally capable but often one step ahead of him.............

**Pendix**

Wyzilla wrote:
You'd have to be incredibly stupid to go off TT rules for a picture of what in-universe W40K would be like. The problem is people thinking there is any association at all between the TT and fluff, they're separate entities. Which isn't suprising at all given that the Black Library is a separate division of the parent GW company.

I completely reject your complete rejection of the game statistics as useful in lore discussions.

Sure, application of such statistics needs to be done judiciously, with full acknowledgment of just what the tt game is meant to 'simulate', it's coarse level of granulisation, and the limitations necessitated by making a 'balanced' game, but, at the end of the day, the tt game is, at least, natively more consistent than other sources. And it doesn't suffer from author fiat, poetic licence or even basic interpretation/misinterpretation.

**Iron_Captain**

Wyzilla wrote:
Nooooo.

The award for best martial killers would belong to something like Imperial Assassins, Daemonettes, Warp Talons, or Bloodletters. Incubi are certainly better than Astartes (up to a point, aforementioned Warp Talons in my post would sodomize them, as would vanguard veterans), but they certainly aren't the best. But Warp Talons especially would murder the hell out of Incubis thanks to being a lite version of Freddy Kruger that can still teleport you into hell and flay you alive.

I highly doubt Imperial Assasins would be able to to defeat an Incubi. The Incubi has the advantage of better equipment and is likely to have more experience and a few millennia of training, seeing that powerful DE are virtually immortal. Warp Talons would be nasty because of their Warp-related toys. Deamons are hard to judge because as creatures of the Warp they do not really adhere to 'normal' rules like training, equipment and experience.