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 RancidHate wrote:
Ok let me try to collate everything that "directly" counters Invisibility
[...]
Necrons: Monolith. Doesn't it have that Gauss Arc thing that does D6 hits on every unit in 6in... or something...?
[...]
any others...?

...
*sigh*
Let's try this again,

 skoffs wrote:
Necrons:
• Doomscythe's Death Ray / Sentry Pylons's Focused Death Ray
• Tesla Destructors (not so much "ignore" as "doesn't care about")
• Tesla Arc's hits
• Imotekh's Lightning strikes (as well as his Staff of the Destroyer weapon)
• Lightning Field
• Monolith's Portal of Exile (vacuums models within D6" of the portal off the table if they fail a strength test)
• Mindshackle Scarabs
• HoW'ing Wraiths/Destroyers/Tomb Blades/etc.
• self destructing C'tan (as well as Gaze of Death)
• Tesseract Ark's Seismic Lash
• Night Shroud Bomber's Death Spheres? (how do bombing runs work with invisible units?)

Wow awesome, there's a lot more that can deal with Invisibility than I thought. When I am somewhere with a real computer instead of my cellphone, I'll update the first post to include all this stuff.


PS - Not going to add null rod or that character that acts like one. It is extremely doubtful that those things work on indirect effects, because if they do it opens up a big nonsensical can of worms that makes them unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops seems like folks are already doing the compiling. Well I'll add their compile to my first post once I get on a device that isn't crazy tedious to cut and paste stuff lol.

So would a model affected by Mindshackle Scarabs hit its own unit only on 6's as well?

Also, way back in 3rd IIRC, the old old old Guess (barrage) weapons rules allowed you to pretty much target any area on the table not in CC or hitting your own unit. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.

 PipeAlley wrote:
So would a model affected by Mindshackle Scarabs hit its own unit only on 6's as well?

Nope, MSS is auto D3 hits against yourself if you fail the 3D6 Ld test.

Necron death ray seems to be the best way to get things done. As written, that rule is not only able to hit invisible targets, but also targets locked in combat, as well as your own troops.

Cant "Hide" in CC against a death ray.

Wall of Death for template weapons on Overwatch does not roll to hit and would thus bypass invisibility.

I believe certain effects that change your ability to hit on overwatch would also work (certain strategic assets in apoc). You still snap shot but you are then permitted to roll full ballistic skill.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Necron death ray seems to be the best way to get things done. As written, that rule is not only able to hit invisible targets, but also targets locked in combat, as well as your own troops.

Cant "Hide" in CC against a death ray.

Which is why it REALLY needs to be FAQ'd.
RAW allows you to do so, but there's no way they would have intended to create a weapon that can fire into combat.

So would beam witchfire work if you target something behind the Invisible unit, but the beam hits models in that unit on its way to the declared target?

 spunkybass wrote:
So would beam witchfire work if you target something behind the Invisible unit, but the beam hits models in that unit on its way to the declared target?

Yep, as long it's one of those things that hit everything along the path of the beam.
Be aware that some people might rule it that it has to hit the target unit first and then anything beyond it can also be hit, but opinion varies from person to person.
Really does need a FAQ, though.
I'd suggest you email GW about it. (the more emails they receive about it, the more likely we might be to see it addressed).

What? no it does not require no FAQ and there is no way to rule it that it hits "only things beyond the target"

Beams as the type itself do not even target a unit to begin with, they target a location, then hit anything between it and the psyker (including YOUR stuff too. so even being surrounded in assault is no defense)

I will contest that beam weapons need to be errata'd to make it so they can not be fired into Friendly targets or into combat.
As it is, RAW says they can, but they shouldn't be allowed to.

Considering they explicitly mention in the rules that it CAN hit such models, its not an oversight, its a decision.

They do not work like normal shooting, why would they be bound by shooting rules? nova also ignores them.

If you disagree with the decision, that's your problem. but its not going to get FAQed.

I see, thanks. As for the interpretation, I'll leave that to when before the games starts and mutually agree with the opponent - or roll a die

I tend to agree with playing the Death Ray RAW. The rules for it are pretty straightforward and easy to follow.

People fear the Death Ray more than they should. This is understandable because it's underlying mechanic breaks a lot of rules. But, it's more threatening in theory than in reality. Doom Scythes have been around for a while and they haven't wrecked anyone's party. Proper positioning and deployment by the opponent can really make the Death Ray struggle to make its value in points.

I am all for making power level interventions if some unit proves unfair and bad for the game, but not before it proves to be bad and unfair for the game.

The new Sentry Pylon star is one to watch. But there, it's more that you have a deep-striking every turn relentless artillery unit that can't get locked in combat than the fact that its touting a Death Ray. If that Sentry Pyon star proved a problem it would probably be better to nerf its insane mobility (by rolling back to 6th edition which prevented artillery from getting relentless) than adding rules from out of the blue to fashion a Death Ray that bears little semblance. Other Deathstars pack centurions or broadsides which accomplish effectively the same thing as the Death Ray in damage output.

Actually, it CAN be locked in combat.
You got an IC in the unit, he is lockable, therefor the unit as a whole is lockable.

Doom scythe wreck MY party, mostly because I lack AA than them being OTT though...
I should really build my riptide already or I'll never deal with them :\

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually, it CAN be locked in combat.
You got an IC in the unit, he is lockable, therefor the unit as a whole is lockable.

Obyron, the key to the deathstar's combo, can not be "locked" in combat.
(he has a piece of wargear, the Ghostwalk Mantle, which allows him and his unit to deep strike every turn, even if they are involved in a combat)

Chaos Space marines Typhus, can center a blast on himself that doesn't scatter in close combat. I wouldn't bank on it killing the invisible squad but at least it's ap2. Can't think of anything else that hasn't been said already.

 skoffs wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually, it CAN be locked in combat.
You got an IC in the unit, he is lockable, therefor the unit as a whole is lockable.

Obyron, the key to the deathstar's combo, can not be "locked" in combat.
(he has a piece of wargear, the Ghostwalk Mantle, which allows him and his unit to deep strike every turn, even if they are involved in a combat)

Obyron?
I thought of a veiltek there...didn't even consider THAT guy...

Yea obyron will be a serious problem XD.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually, it CAN be locked in combat.
You got an IC in the unit, he is lockable, therefor the unit as a whole is lockable.

Obyron, the key to the deathstar's combo, can not be "locked" in combat.
(he has a piece of wargear, the Ghostwalk Mantle, which allows him and his unit to deep strike every turn, even if they are involved in a combat)

Obyron?
I thought of a veiltek there...didn't even consider THAT guy...

Sentry-Star will only work with him. Veil-teks aren't ICs, so can't be attached to the Pylons.

And here I prove that my necron-fu is weak.

Good thing I only play against them, not with them.

Screamers also have a fly-by slashing attack, d3 autohits for each screamer that turbo-boosted over the unit.

Doombolt is a line, as is Molten Beam, Infernal Gaze, Assail but lines have been mentioned earlier.

Sunburst simply puts bolter hits on everything around the caster, each unit within X takes 2d6 Str 4 AP 5 ignores cover hits. Bonus points since you can always choose to get this power with black legion supplement. Shockwave does the same, but adds pinning and loses the AP 5 for AP -.

Terrify should also work, though it won't do any damage, it might get them to go away, possibly off the board.

Dominate can force them to simply sit there like chumps and do nothing while invisible, Hallucination can make them a bit more sucky, or even deal some low strength hits, but it's a bit of a long shot.

Objuration mechanicum give their weapons gets hot, but also inflicts an automatic haywire hit on vehicle models (can vehicles be targeted by invisibility?)

Super heavy explosions will also do the trick, though that's a bit extreme (unless the unit is a deathstar, which it likely is) and not something you can count on. Vehicle explosions too, but they won't damage much, and not something you can count on. But if you just so happen to be standing next to them, at least any demolisher rounds have a chance at scattering off onto the invisible unit.

Tau Warscaper drone, the necron thingy that makes everything dangerous terrain and, if they're daemons, sanctuary will make 'em pass a test or take a hit, though that is unit dependant as some stuff is immune. Fire shield also forces all within 6" to test for Dangerous terrain (huh, that's 3 powers from Pyromancy on this list, talk about niche).

Multiple barrage shots (think thunderfire cannon, wyvern squadrons, Vaaul weapon battery squads) can be "walked" onto the unit as a hit allows you to place the next template touching anywhere on a previous blast IIRC.

if it's a high strength CC unit, like veteran vanguard with powerfists or thunderhammers for example, a charge by killa kans would do the job.

impact hits, and in all likelihood 6 explosions to kill off some guys.

also grotzookas in a unit of 6, that'll almost certainly scatter every which-way and get some hits.

I also think wall of death may affect them, but some people argue otherwise...

there are a bunch of nova powers that will auto hit them (and flyers!)

novas explicitly DO hit, the BRB spells out that they hit flyers without snap shotting, meaning they also hit other targets that require snap shotting when rolling to hit.


auto hits hit stuff in this edition.

anything that auto hits like novas, HOW, stomps and so on will hit invis units.

 skoffs wrote:
Necrons:
• Doomscythe's Death Ray / Sentry Pylons's Focused Death Ray
• Tesla Destructors (not so much "ignore" as "doesn't care about")
• Tesla Arc's hits
• Imotekh's Lightning strikes
• Lightning Field
• Monolith's Portal of Exile
• Mindshackle Scarabs
• HoW'ing Wraiths/Destroyers/Tomb Blades/etc.
• self destructing C'tan
• Tesseract Ark's Seismic Lash
• Night Shroud Bomber's Death Spheres? (how do bombing runs work with invisible units?)

Sweeping attacks from the CCB fall under this list. 3x S7 AP1 attacks. They hit on a 3+ if the chariot moved at combat speed, otherwise 4+.

A Calidus assassin arriving from reserves can deal 1d6 S4 AP2 hits on an Invisible unit (then promptly die as the next turn).

SJ

Eldar: Vibro Cannons. You need to target a unit it's true but, anything in between or past (up to 36in) gets struck, too. If the invisible unit is between you and the target OR it's 5in behind a target that was like 22in away (for 27 out of 36in), they get hit, normally.

This isn't true, whoever posted this is thinking of the previous codex.

I played a game today against Tau, my buddy said his marker lights improve to hit snap shots to hit invisible units on 5+

That forgeworld knight with the Hellstorm flamer template. As long as he has something within like a foot of the inivisible unit, it's just a matter of getting the knight to where the line can be drawn through the invisble unit.

Super Newb wrote:
Wow awesome, there's a lot more that can deal with Invisibility than I thought. When I am somewhere with a real computer instead of my cellphone, I'll update the first post to include all this stuff.


PS - Not going to add null rod or that character that acts like one. It is extremely doubtful that those things work on indirect effects, because if they do it opens up a big nonsensical can of worms that makes them unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops seems like folks are already doing the compiling. Well I'll add their compile to my first post once I get on a device that isn't crazy tedious to cut and paste stuff lol.

Invisibility's snap shot effect is in no way indirect, that's exactly the effect of the spell.

Also Culexus counters any blessing/malediction in 12", that works for invisibility too.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
I played a game today against Tau, my buddy said his marker lights improve to hit snap shots to hit invisible units on 5+

In spesific conditions.

A markerlight hit consumed by a single unit will allow that unit, and that unit alone, to hit on a 5+.
Another by the same unit is a 4+, than 3+, than 2+.
But only one unit.

And the markerlight ITSELF has to hit first of course, who is snap shooting as well, therefor hitting on a 6.

The key here is that invisibility causes you to snap-shot, and markerlights are a unique case of a modifier that is specifically allowed to influence AFTER the snap shot modifier, despite the fat they would normally be applied the other way around.
Powerful, but requires a decent investment to get it to work.