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Why? It is a product. If you don't like them, don't buy them.

Spite and angst are pretty weak things to fling around.

Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.

 Yonan wrote:
Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.

Exactly this.

 Yonan wrote:
Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.

What isn't good about the product they produce with AM? They removed the items they don't create models for. That is consistent with the court ruling on the Chapterhouse case, since they cannot protect themselves legally if they cannot honestly claim they produce a product for.

What did they really remove that is so egregious? Most of what was removed is available through Forge World.

I agree with you that you should not buy the books. But have you physically read the books or using other opinions to judge them to be a product for you to buy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The latest update to the IA books had both an Elysian list and Tallarn rules that cover what you need to make them have a better feel. I think the entire book is a great read and having the rules makes them a better buy.

Same for the Griffon. The IA book that includes it is a great read.

But I understand not everyone can afford the books

 PhillyT wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.

What isn't good about the product they produce with AM? They removed the items they don't create models for. That is consistent with the court ruling on the Chapterhouse case, since they cannot protect themselves legally if they cannot honestly claim they produce a product for.

What did they really remove that is so egregious? Most of what was removed is available through Forge World.

Read this very thread. It explains all of the complaints against the IG dex.

And the removed characters did have models.

 Yonan wrote:
Given the supplements we've had I'm not sure we really want them tbh. Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion, both of which had what, a warlord table, some new relics and a couple special rules? The SM supplements seemed similar and were for chapters in the SM 'dex already. Supplements would be a golden opportunity to give us something new and great but GW refuses to do it.

The MT codex doesn't bode well for future supplements. They priced and marketed that thing as a full codex, featuring no unique models or units, and just a couple unique orders.

The money game with supplements isn't new. GW has been selling supplements forever, the difference is that back in 3rd one white dwarf would cost $5 and have experimental rules for Salvar Chem Dogs, White Scars, and Saim Hann. Or they'd put out a $15 Catachan codex or Craftworld Eldar codex. It was easy to drop a few bucks I try out a new army configuration. Sometimes you tried it once and it stunk, other times people loved the rules and used them all the time. Point is, there was constant experimentation and It was cheap to add diversity into the game. But the new system is $50 for what used to be a single chapter approved article in a $5 white dwarf.

I'm pro-supplements, I'm anti-money grabs.

tiger g wrote:
I agree with you that you should not buy the books. But have you physically read the books or using other opinions to judge them to be a product for you to buy?

The latest update to the IA books had both an Elysian list and Tallarn rules that cover what you need to make them have a better feel. I think the entire book is a great read and having the rules makes them a better buy.

Same for the Griffon. The IA book that includes it is a great read.

But I understand not everyone can afford the books

Forgeworld ist verboten in a lot of places in Australia. Yes I've read all the supplements I mentioned and the IG 'dex. I stand by what I said - the supplements have a new warlord table, some new relics and a couple (as in two) special rules to apply. That's *not* a good product, certainly not for the price.

Forgeworld do a much better job of supplements than GW do though that's for sure, I love reading through FW books.

edit: before my time silo, though I do have the catachan thing (picked up cheap a while ago). It was a much better way of doing things, before GW settled on the charge more for less content model they seem infatuated with now.

I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?

The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.

 PhillyT wrote:
I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?

The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.

I think it has more to do with GW as a whole, not specifically the IG dex. The dex was just "blah." not bad, but not good. Other dexes though...

 PhillyT wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Because GW could produce actual *good* products instead, as many other companies are able to do. It's not spite, it's the hope that GW will improve if they're forced to. The only way to force GW to improve is to hit them where it hurts - in the profits.

What isn't good about the product they produce with AM?

That comment you replied to was specifically with regards to supplements. Supplements are bad products for the reasons I mentioned.

Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.

I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements. That is my choice as a consumer. I am not about to label them bad though. They are non essential supplements after all and I can game perfectly well without them.

I have yet to see a supplement that legitimately supports the notion that GW is removing things from the books with the intent to then repackage them in supplements and screw over the consumer.

Well complaints from Australia do not seem to bother GW. Not sure why FW is not liked in your area but the simple rules for Elysians and Tallarn are not game breakers.

 PhillyT wrote:
Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.

I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements.

When they're a rulebook for a game that adds a couple lines of new rules - you can pretty much say they objectively fail as a rulebook. If all the customers label them as bad, you can pretty much say that they're objectively bad as they don't give the customers what they want.

It is new rules, missions, warlord tables, and formations in some cases. If that isn't enough for you, don't buy them. Enough people are to justify their sale. It is no different than the crazy prices on collector edition or special edition codices. People buy them somewhere!

I am a big fan of options. If GW wants to produce additional rule sets for people with disposable income (which is everyone playing Warhammer) then good for them. If I like it, I'll buy it. If I don't want it, I won't.

 Yonan wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Supplements are products. Whether they are bad or not is very much dependent upon what is included. That you don't see value in them is nothing but your subjective opinion.

I don't feel they are worth the cost associated with them so I don't buy rule book supplements.

When they're a rulebook for a game that adds a couple lines of new rules - you can pretty much say they objectively fail as a rulebook. If all the customers label them as bad, you can pretty much say that they're objectively bad as they don't give the customers what they want.

As you are not buying the codexes and supplements but insist the rules are bad is the FLGS you go to allowing you to read the books? Is this so you can make an informed judgement they are bad and tell everyone not to buy them and therefore costing the FLGS that allowed you to read the books to lose sales?

You have a nice axe to grind there mate. I don't play at or buy from a FLGS - GW products are 30%+ more expensive in Australia, hence Australia. I'm the only one at my club that buys any 40k products at all now, everyone else has moved on completely.

 PhillyT wrote:
It is new rules, missions, warlord tables, and formations in some cases. If that isn't enough for you, don't buy them. Enough people are to justify their sale.

The half yearly report begs to differ with that, and the half-cycle release of 7th ed being a last ditch effort to lift sales for the end of financial year report confirms it. What GW is doing *isn't working*. The players, en masse, are saying "no thanks" to what GW is doing now.
---
We're getting a bit distracted from the topic here though. Lets agree to disagree on the quality of supplements and how good they will be if or when they arrive for IG>

Oh come on, are we playing junior investor now? They have had year over year growth from 2011 - 2012 - 2013. You want to try and claim their business model isn't working from a half year report when three annual reports say it is? The time period in question included what products compared to the time period from the previous report?

GIve me a break. How much do you want to bet the second half report will do massive business compared to the last? With the release of AM, Tyranids, Orks, and 7th edition, this half year will destroy the last one which featured Space Marines and what else?

Don't play junior investor Yonan as proof that GW is failing. If their year to year sales have improved ahead of inflation, then the idea that people are abandoning ship due to the recent changes doesn't hold water. It is typical GW bashing. They get blasted form not putting out enough interesting material (5th edition complaint) and they get blasted from throwing out all the interesting material they can muster (7th edition).

The other problem is he speaking as his part of Australia (which the gaming groups are spread) represent what is happening in the entire world. GW is struggling on how to handle this continent and what is happening there is worst than the rest of the world. This is by reading not only on these threads but the significant declines in the continent based on the results reported.

It is quite dim in Australia based also on discussions with some manufacturers of other lines in that part of the world.

I have friends in Australia. The pricing on models down there is insane.

The AM codex isn't particularly stellar. The inclusion of more capable psychic support was nice, and if you played an infantry gunline with Leman russ support you're probably stoked. Most other IG army builds got a far-from-necessary hammer.

The book made Orders a lot better and Leman Russ tanks very cheap, but many of the problems with the previous book remain (e.g. RR's are still crap, HH's and variant are still painfully overcosted, etc), and the removal of so many characters and artillery units certainly doesn't help make for varied and capable armies.

Overall, it's a pretty uninspiring book. I've been sticking almost exclusively to the DKoK Assault Brigade and Armored Battlegroup lists for play since the book came out.

And the less said about the Scions book, the better.

What other gaming styles did it it nerf other than vendetta transport armies?

I have not tried them yet but why are not rough riders used a little more to capture objectives. Thinking more of ACW advance troops. (would be great to be able to dismount and hold the ground with carbines.)

 PhillyT wrote:
What other gaming styles did it it nerf other than vendetta transport armies?

Valks got more expensive, Chimeras are both more expensive and less capable (firing point nerf) making both Mechvets and Mechanized Platoons significantly less capable, artillery based armies got hammered (not a problem if FW isn't a problem where you are, but many places/events still have issues with FW), outflanking platoons are gone, etc...

Overall the book seems lackluster versus the 5th edition Codex but also it would be hard to outshine such an amazing Codex. Taking away some options will always irk me but overall I will still play Guard as I ran a mostly mechanized force and this latest rule set has not gimped mechanized forces in any major way.

 PhillyT wrote:
I have read the thread. I am asking what is so egregious as to create an uproar?

The removed characters were from lines that no longer have models for sale (unless I am mistaken). Other than Sly, since catachans are still out there. The characters became counts as HQ and champion models.

Then why are the rough riders still in the codex , when the only thing that made them work was removed ?


Someone said that IG went sideways , unlike all other army books either making army better or worse. The AM codex seems like a push to make people drop the stuff they used have and buy more models, only it doesn't realy do it very well. There are no serpents, riptides or bikers in the AM codex . And a lot of the good changes didn't stay good for long . Divination got changed and to use it we need 4-5 psykers. The tauox didn't help us be more mobile and agressive on the table , because are still t3 dudes with str 3 weapons and no fearless.
And both of our anti air options were nerfed hard , so now tyranids pew us to death while caping objectives left and right.

I don't know what GW was thinking when making the AM codex, they knew how next edition is going to be like and that with the new mission
objectives slow moving shoting armies won't work. The codex could have been so much better, if there were options to let say take a type of ogryns as troops or make rough riders realy useful. Right now we can only claim the objectives that are near our deployment or pray that the ones further are more then one , only when we play against a slow army.

not gimped mechanized forces in any major way.

because chimeras and vendettas didn't go up in price.

Flying Toaster wrote:
this latest rule set has not gimped mechanized forces in any major way.

Aside from making all transports more expensive and hammering the firing point capabilities on Chimeras?

I said major. Like in game ending will never field the model ever major.

Yes points costs have gone up for transports but honestly IG were dirt cheap in everything for a long time, do you really think that was going to continue?

The financial performance of GW is off topic. Also, don't let's talk about people as "junior investors". It is a bit demeaning. If people want to argue about finances it can be done using the actual figures.

My Mech-commander style army got hit with the price incress to the chimera quite hard, granted that was off set by how cheep the crarpace armour is now but my vendetta, the poor bird probably wont take to the table for a bit. As for the hydra...still no intercept, ground fire, made it open top and they took the tracking rule away... they didn't like how good it was.