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 Kanluwen wrote:
"Cadian Blood" is a novel, "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook is exactly what it sounds like.

It was published with The 13th Black Crusade worldwide event.

Well since it clashes with the codex I guess you can think what you will.

I know nothing of this black crusade beyond it was a campaign.

I imagine if Cadians get their own supplement I imagine the main difference will be some different order options. Otherwise it's Karsikins and Whiteshields instead of storm troopers and conscripts. Karsikins I could see them getting rules that differentiate them from Scions.

Cadians and Catachan supplements I could see them each being limited to specific Veteran types. A more limited veteran type but at a discount would help differentiate.

I bet GW will also give them each preferred enemy toward their respect fluffy antagonists.

 Kanluwen wrote:


One of those comes with Infiltration/Deep Strike as an option.

One of those would not. One of those is also a Troops choice and not an Elite. Thanks for proving my point.

This didn't even come close to proving your point so sorry, TRY again. If you are going to get that technical then guess what, you can take the Militarium Tempestus book so you can take Scions as troops.

The difference being that if you use your Elysian lists, you are not required to give your Sergeants, Lieutenants, or Captains pistols/CCWs.

Um in the Astra Militarium book you can equip both Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants with Ranged weapons so I am failing to see how you are "required" to equip them with swords and pistols.

Drop Troops would be a terrible supplement. Why? Because Forge World has already done it so, so, so much better than GW ever would.
Jungle Fighters had a Codex at one point. It was a joke.
"Waves of Infantry" is no different than C: Astra Militarum.
"Urban Specialists" is also a joke. It's called Cities of Death. Anyone can be "Urban Specialists" to put it politely.
"Old fashioned ranks and lasgun volleys" is, again, no different than C: Astra Militarum.
The only one that really could feasibly be done is Desert Raiders--but even then, they could be done easily enough like the Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders where they do an in-game effect at the start of the game.

And these all above are your own personal opinions not facts. The point is the specialist regiments (listed on pages 18 and 19 in the Codex I believe) have something that makes them unique when compared to the Cadians and therefore chances are they would get their own book. I agree with the Drop Troops (was used as an example) but your comment in regards to both the Waves of Infantry and Volley fire how they are no different then C. Astra Militarium, guess what the same argument can be easily made with your Cadians.

It has nothing to do with "backing my regiment". I just find the idea that some Regiments are more deserving than others ridiculous. If effort is put into it, you could have a great supplement out of damn near anything.
The fact that Sentinels of Terra, Black Legion, and Clan Raaukan exist is testament to that.

The fact that you are saying how above you basically came up with a reason for other Regiments to NOT have a supplement in regards to the Cadians is also ridiculous and undermines this statement. Im sorry man but no matter how you slice it or how technical you try to get there is not enough stuff that is uniquely Cadian to warrant them their own supplement when compared to other Regiments. And this is not "favoring" another Regiment as you called it, its the fact that there are more unique things that set them apart that would make sense for a supplement to be released.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I imagine if Cadians get their own supplement I imagine the main difference will be some different order options. Otherwise it's Karsikins and Whiteshields instead of storm troopers and conscripts. Karsikins I could see them getting rules that differentiate them from Scions.

Cadians and Catachan supplements I could see them each being limited to specific Veteran types. A more limited veteran type but at a discount would help differentiate.

I bet GW will also give them each preferred enemy toward their respect fluffy antagonists.

If they did it would be something like that but I doubt many people would want a Cadian 2.0 style of book. Would definitely rather have a Steel Legion, Catachan or Valhallan Supplement to bring something different to the table other then plain boring old Cadian models.

Swastakowey wrote:The reason Cadians are now sold as standard Guard is simply because they sell Cadians.

Everything cadian they sell, they also have a catachan version that they also sell.

Ergo...

Kanluwen wrote:Depending, again, what you read? Commissars are either: A) Primarily attached to regiments from their home world(Remember they're orphans, not children born in space with no home world) or B) Attached to regiments from their home world preferably, but other worlds if not possible.

This is the opposite of what it says in the fluff.

Commissars make up the entirety of the imperial guard's staff officers. They exist to provide logistics and intelligence and communication and all that other stuff that staff officers do. Because they're all doled out from the central bureaucracy, they're almost never in regiments from their own world. It's what makes it easier to keep order in a certain, specific way (not swayed by local customs), and it make it easier to shoot people on those times when order needs to be restored in person.

In-game, they exist to summarily execute people and restore morale, but that's just what they can do in-game.

It would be like saying that George W Bush's main contribution to the Iraq war was as a fighter pilot.

And they could EASILY make a Cadian supplement. Seriously. Just sit down right now and think for 30 seconds about how you could tweak a few units, add a few warlord traits, a relic or two, and come up with a single special character.

If you can do it easily in the comfort of your living room, GW could easily do it with a staff of trained writers.

Yes hence why Catachan was the ONLY other regiment to have their special characters mostly intact and have a decent showing in the book. Which I mentioned earlier.

Just Cadians are the worst offender.

Which is curious because nobody actually buys catachans

I've never actually seen a Catachan army, I've never even seen the models used in an IG army, only as stuff like zombies and whatnot

If they did it would be something like that but I doubt many people would want a Cadian 2.0 style of book. Would definitely rather have a Steel Legion, Catachan or Valhallan Supplement to bring something different to the table other then plain boring old Cadian models.

Unfortunately with the shift away from metal and finecast it's unlikely we'll see any support for a regiment that isn't plastic. Even if we did given the age of those other minis I'd be more in inclined to believe we'd see them support voystroyan before any of the others.

Well, they'd probably bring into plastic the ones most easiest to bring into plastic, I'd think.

Which would be steel legion, right?

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, they'd probably bring into plastic the ones most easiest to bring into plastic, I'd think.

Which would be steel legion, right?

Steel Legion are Pewter and despite the other Regiments being Pewter they probably would get the nod due to their popularity, one can hope!

Yes, I know, but think about which army would be the easiest to convert?

Vostroyans would be a nightmare to get the legs and torsos and long coats to all line up correctly. You basically have to make those one-piece. Valhallans wouldn't be much better. That leaves steel legion, or one of the mordian types. Steel legion look like they'd be easier to make a sprue out of.

Tallaran would probably be the next most easy to translate into plastic.

However, would they? Would it make financial sense for them to invest huge £ into new plastic models for an existing range that are simply "alternatives" to the existing line? Never mind the sprue cost, you then have the issues of storing the damn things at GW stores....

Sadly the chances of this seem slim, as much as I would LOVE to see more variant guard models. The costs are likely prohibitive compared to the likely return.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However, would they? Would it make financial sense for them to invest huge £ into new plastic models for an existing range that are simply "alternatives" to the existing line? Never mind the sprue cost, you then have the issues of storing the damn things at GW stores....

Sadly the chances of this seem slim, as much as I would LOVE to see more variant guard models. The costs are likely prohibitive compared to the likely return.

Im kind of glad for this. Other companies do the imperial guard waaaay better than GW. I personally dont like GW plastics most of the time. I can get all the old guard regiments from other retailers plus a lot more! Except tallarn but even they have head swaps nowdays.

But a book would be fine for some rule variation at least. But GW will not make a new plastic Guard regiment any time soon. I think anyways.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which is curious because nobody actually buys catachans

I've never actually seen a Catachan army, I've never even seen the models used in an IG army, only as stuff like zombies and whatnot

I've got 40 Catachans back from when they were the only plastic regiment, which also made them by far the cheapest.

I dont understand how victoria lamb can create fantastic plastic preatorian-esque guardsmen while gw are sticking with metal. Surely with their resources they could have made a plastic range for all the ig regiments by now?

1) SPace on production machines. THis isnt free [as in, the current slack space is essentially nil, so to produce these kits in sufficient quantity something else has to get bumped, OR you buy another million pound machine, install and commission it)
2) Building up sufficient stock for worldwide, simultaneous release. This isnt free (if in doubt, have allook into volume planning one of these days, and see how complex it can be)
3) Storing and displaying an expanded range (effectively doubling the infantry line, to do it properly) in GW stores, worldwide. This REALLY isnt free

Theres 3 reasons in about 10 seconds of thought. Manu+Retail is much, much more complicated than just Manu

And all just as quickly dismissed for being ridiculous.

1. If your manufacturing is running flat strap to keep up with orders, you expand your manufacturing. This is much easier for an established company with cash flow to do.
2. All the more reason to do 1.
3. Yes we all realize GW stores are ridiculous. It's about time GW realized it too.

I think a supplement focused on Cadia could work. If they tied it in with the 13th black crusade (the eye of terror campaign and sourcebook has been retconned by now, remember!) and actually advanced the central story of 40K it would be great - but since it would mean changing the status quo, I doubt we'll ever see a supplement like this.

I will agree with the others that the current codex handles cadians and catachans pretty well and outside of formations, there's not much a supplement could offer to these armies. I'd much rather see steel legion, valhallans or mordians because it would be cool to see some alternate playstyles revolving around these forces.

Only by taking an elementary, naive view that doesnt actually look at anythying like real world and only ideals, then yes it can be dismissed quickly. Notice how you dealt with absolutes, and I dealt with less specific? (this isnt free vs just do it) This is because I dont claim to have the only answer, just some likely reasons why an established company may have issues, based on some chats i've had with people who actually work there and have some actual knowledge of the topic.

1) Costs money. Lots of money, as they like to own their own manufacturing (understandable after the China issues). This can be done, but takes more of a BUSINESS case than a single release is likely to provide. Of course, you thought of that.... nope.

Whereas a new company can rent space, as needed. Its actually EASIER for a startup / smaller company, as they dont have to make the same volumes. Being big has disadvantages, remember.

2) Again, as per 1. Planning line equipment is, from a guess, something you havent had to plan? Ever tried volume planning on a worldwide organisation? I havent, but I've seen it done, and your "just do it" no-depth answers are...well. Bad.

3) I like the UK GW sttores. Maybe they dont meet your requirements, but to say "we all" is...well, its more of your "day one DLC" bullgak.

The cost of the Torox actually was what pissed me off. Picked up the codex the day it came out and figured i would grab 2 toroxes for the heck of it.

When i went to check them out and was told they were $100 for the 2, i can say that was a wtf ! moment for me. $50 for a 50pt model imho is a bit much.. I put them back and just run my Chimeras.

Price points suck. It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants. The fact we're here means we have no problem spending on frivolities. That said we shouldn't derail this into a heartfelt discussion of the economics of 40k. In the end it's a hobby, we could all survive buying none.

 Mumblez wrote:
I think a supplement focused on Cadia could work. If they tied it in with the 13th black crusade (the eye of terror campaign and sourcebook has been retconned by now, remember!) and actually advanced the central story of 40K it would be great - but since it would mean changing the status quo, I doubt we'll ever see a supplement like this.

I will agree with the others that the current codex handles cadians and catachans pretty well and outside of formations, there's not much a supplement could offer to these armies. I'd much rather see steel legion, valhallans or mordians because it would be cool to see some alternate playstyles revolving around these forces.

I think Codex Cadia could be done. You look at the CSM supplements and GW didn't do much. A Cadian Supplement could easily bring as much to the table and easily more if GW wanted to put in the effort. Fluffy renaming of Scions and Conscripts to Karsikins and White Shields. Some additional orders. Different veteran options... And that's about as much as Black Legion gave CSM.

Personally I think Catachans would be the more interesting supplement since their rules would emphasize an actual different play style.

It'd be neat to see one of the two get rules for a Veteran platoon.

Up next: Codex Ultramarines!
(AM dex is Codex Cadia.)

 MWHistorian wrote:
Up next: Codex Ultramarines!
(AM dex is Codex Cadia.)

No, no, you have this all wrong, next we're gonna get Codex: Mary Sue Space Vikings with a Wolf Fetish!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read "Cadian Blood" or "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook.

Both say that Commissars are "rare and insulting" for Cadian Regiments. If they're going to have Commissars, they generally have Cadian Commissars.

Actually, according to the fluff in the 13th Black Crusade sourcebook, Cadians still get offworld Commissars. Hence that short story from the Commissar who was attached to a unit of Whiteshields so that *he* could learn to keep up with *them* because they were in such better shape. Afterwards, he would be re-assigned to an adult Cadian unit.

With the exception of Kasrkin, who are not functionally that different from Stormtroopers or Scions or whatever, the current codex is a perfectly valid representation of a Cadian force. You have most of your special characters left, you have all of your units (and a serviceable stand-in that loses *nothing* of importance ie, Scions for Kasrkin) and you have all of your models. Calling Codex AM codex Cadia is not enough of a misrepresentation for it to be untrue. The only difference between Codex AM and a real, hard-core Codex Cadia is that you would have fewer units available to you under Codex Cadia (rough riders, ogryns, ratlings, taurox). So basically, Codex AM is "Codex Cadia Plus a Lil' Extra for those Who Might Want to Do Something Different Than Cadia".

So you already have Codex Cadia.

But cheer up! Nobody else will ever get a codex for their IG army!

Seriously. Look at the time frame around te announcement of supplements for the other armies. How long after the release of Tyrandis did GW announce dataslates? After Space Marines? Orks haven't been out a month and we have W!G. It's been how long since AM was dropped on us? How many supplements/dataslates have been announced? None? Yeah, thought so. We aren't getting a supplement for AM. We just aren't. Representing a non-Cadian army would require GW to make an army's worth of new models, and we all know that isn't going to happen. They won't release a Codex: Catachan either, because they did that once and nobody bought it. GW won't make that mistake again.

No Steel Legion supplement....
No Chaos Legion supplements....
Maybe the GW rules team has a irrational dislike for anything with "legion" in it?

 TheKbob wrote:
The new style of Codex since Tyranids and through Orks it seems is to strip them down to very vanilla releases; very cut and dry. Tyranids is still lackluster and lost major ways to play. Imperial Guard lost a ton of flavor (and my favorite special character) but remains good, from my view point. Orks lost a lot of different ways to play and got some really dumb changes (Gaz as a LOW, no invulns in close combat, no FOC tricks, etc.).

Basically assume you're going to get a really bland book and extra spice may come down the road in the form of a $15 ~ $50 add-on.

This is a great point. They made alot of changes.. for the sake of changes it seems like. Like Kanz increasing in price..but he weapons dropping in price. They work out to ALMOST the same ..but why chnage it? were they OP? Why remove 3 str from them in CC?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which is curious because nobody actually buys catachans

I've never actually seen a Catachan army, I've never even seen the models used in an IG army, only as stuff like zombies and whatnot

My buddy plays Catachans. Sweet army.

aka_mythos wrote: It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants.

Oh, my goodness...

Here, have a look at what price actually is. There is no such thing as an unfair price (only a certain volume sold over a certain price), and price isn't determined by what the seller wants it to be.

KommissarKarl wrote:I dont understand how victoria lamb can create fantastic plastic preatorian-esque guardsmen while gw are sticking with metal. Surely with their resources they could have made a plastic range for all the ig regiments by now?

Just because a handful of people on the internet want some doesn't mean it's in GW's best interest to produce them.

Niche demand is best handled by niche suppliers, rather than larger companies that work with economies of scale.

 Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote: It's 40k and like any other luxury it's sold not for fair price but what the seller wants.

Oh, my goodness...

Here, have a look at what price actually is. There is no such thing as an unfair price (only a certain volume sold over a certain price), and price isn't determined by what the seller wants it to be.

I disagree. In economics there is a distinction between market prices and fair prices. Fair prices go beyond the notion of Market prices by incorporating abstractly the individual subjective valuation and use of an item in question, while also considering the synergistic relationship of the two exchanging parties. Market value maybe a certain amount, but fair value can be a different price than market norms by being higher or lower value based on factors unrelated to market. For example my personal relationship with another person might prompt me to pay more or prompt them to ask me for less than market rate "because we're friends" but those prices may otherwise be outside market valuation. This is to say the very economic notion of fair value extends consideration beyond just the individual attributes of the object and considers the subjectivity I bring to considering the value.

My personal belief in the valuation and prices GW asks are unfair are based on my personal experience in the manufacture of plastic parts and how detached their pricing is from its cost to produce and bring to market. When you look at their business model they have emphasized margin growth over market share growth and have lost market share for it. Unfair prices one can assert are simply the prices that generate an adverse effect on the size of the market and consumer base. I would assert that when the prices GW asks for its products cause market contraction, that the greater body of customers do not individually perceive GW's prices as meeting their individual subjective utility and thus are not a fair value, or as I said its an unfair price.

I assert that the cause is their price setting because their overhead, material, and manufacturing cost are by their own stock holders report flat. When you remove those attributes from the pricing of product its only what GW perceives they should get for their product that drives their asking market price. Their expectations are overreaching and don't align with their market causing the aforementioned contraction. Also when a company has flattened its overhead, material, and manufacturing costs that affords them one of the highest degrees of pricing flexibility but simply they have gone beyond what the market can bear.

Well, have you seen what Pask in punisher squadron with prescience can do?

MM sponsons and hull lascannon. Brutal stuff. As if 20 S5 rending shots weren't enough. Point it at marines - they'll fail some of those saves(and you wound them on 3's), then come the sponsons and lascannons that just evaporate them and they -will- hit with prescience.

Overall I think the book is fine. Sure, those special characters were nice to have, even if anyone barely used them, but I guess GW either pulled them to release them in respective regiment supplements or they just weren't selling well enough to further support those options and were cut. I for one won't miss them because I never used 'em, only Marbo occasionally, but that's it.

As for the nerfs and point shifts.. at least the armoured sentinels are stupid good for their points! Put a plasma cannon on six of them and watch the hilarity ensue!