Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I gotta find some real cheap and pretty nice (though GW's guard plastic is so old) guard alternatives, since I'm doing a blob army (mostly for a homebrew ruleset I am making, Super Warhammer 40, 000 I call it)

KommissarKarl wrote:


Well all I will say is that with those I think you get what you pay for. If I wanted alt-Imperial Guard I'd go for Victoria Lamb. It's $49.99 which is £29 in old money, so costs a fair but more than GW's cadians. However I think they are a *lot* better and you get what you pay for.

Karl, the models in the last picture are actually GW's Praetorians. These are Victoria Lamb's Victorian Guard

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Karl, the models in the last picture are actually GW's Praetorians.

Although they do at least look like the Praetorians that Vic painted

They are and they are for sale too. if you've got $3500.00 burning a hole in your pocket they can be yours.

http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/classic-praetorian-imperial-guard-army

 Crimson Devil wrote:
They are and they are for sale too. if you've got $3500.00 burning a hole in your pocket they can be yours.

http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/classic-praetorian-imperial-guard-army

Awesome army, but a bit pricey at $30 per model... must be that minimum wage.

Shandara wrote:
Awesome army, but a bit pricey at $30 per model... must be that minimum wage.

They're painted by a multiple Golden Demon winner, and are freaking awesome. The price is more than fair.

madd_leeroy wrote:
Direct competitors, there are none, no one does and can produce miniatures and rules that are compatible in 40K.

Oh God! It's me like... 15 years ago!

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Karl, the models in the last picture are actually GW's Praetorians. These are Victoria Lamb's Victorian Guard

Whoops I couldn't find a painted picture of them.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW probably will publish by the end of July, unless the results are so disastrous that they have to conceal them for as long as possible.

Nah they'll be fine. They've got knife marks on their bones, but that's a small price to pay for a (very short-term) gain. They'll celebrate their "efficiency" (READ: sacking entire departments across the world and downsizing/centralising their operation), how much profit they're making (READ: how much overhead they reduced by sacking said departments and all the one-man store stuff), and talk about how vibrant 40K is looking and how the next Warhammer will be awesome and don't mention the war Hobbit.

When GW does go under (and yes that's a "when" rather than an "if" - everything ends) I honestly think it will simply be boredom that does it. WHF died not because of anything GW did imo, but because the fanbase got bored/fatigued by the whole thing. Eventually that'll happen with 40k, but it won't stop everyone blaming GW and their business strategies on the collapse.

 insaniak wrote:

Shandara wrote:
Awesome army, but a bit pricey at $30 per model... must be that minimum wage.

They're painted by a multiple Golden Demon winner, and are freaking awesome. The price is more than fair.

Let me rephrase myself then, by own subjective-and-perhaps-not-realistic feel for value I find $30 per model too expensive, no matter how awesomely they are painted. And yes, it's awesome.

KommissarKarl wrote:
When GW does go under (and yes that's a "when" rather than an "if" - everything ends) I honestly think it will simply be boredom that does it. WHF died not because of anything GW did imo, but because the fanbase got bored/fatigued by the whole thing. Eventually that'll happen with 40k, but it won't stop everyone blaming GW and their business strategies on the collapse.

Because that will likely be the cause. GW and their business strategies, or lack thereof, is the only factor in their decline.

It is a business's core purpose to offer potential customers something they will want to buy.

Thus if GW's strategy leads to boredom and stagnation, it is a bad one.

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:
When GW does go under (and yes that's a "when" rather than an "if" - everything ends) I honestly think it will simply be boredom that does it. WHF died not because of anything GW did imo, but because the fanbase got bored/fatigued by the whole thing. Eventually that'll happen with 40k, but it won't stop everyone blaming GW and their business strategies on the collapse.

Because that will likely be the cause. GW and their business strategies, or lack thereof, is the only factor in their decline.

You think it's impossible to become bored of 40k? You think no-one has ever gone "eh i'm bored of 40k now I think I'll try Warmahordes/X-wing"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Thus if GW's strategy leads to boredom and stagnation, it is a bad one.

People get bored of things all the time. It's no one's fault, though you could argue that GW's policies accelerate their decline if you really wanted to.

Individuals sure. Bored en masse? Not if the setting is managed by a competent company.

GW is a company that has successfully provided entertaining products for over 30 years. If they start to bore customers now, there is something wrong.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW is a company that has successfully provided entertaining products for over 30 years. If they start to bore customers now, there is something wrong.

You mention GW again...I'm talking about 40k. 40k as a setting can only have a certain amount of interest in it, logically all settings do. Eventually that interest will dry up, and those guys that you just love to hate don't really get in a look in.

Just look at how WHF collapsed and died, or the LOTR after the films faded from peoples' memories - and then failed to be re-ignited for the Hobbit.

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW is a company that has successfully provided entertaining products for over 30 years. If they start to bore customers now, there is something wrong.

You mention GW again...I'm talking about 40k. 40k as a setting can only have a certain amount of interest in it, logically all settings do. Eventually that interest will dry up, and those guys that you just love to hate don't really get in a look in.

Just look at how WHF collapsed and died, or the LOTR after the films faded from peoples' memories - and then failed to be re-ignited for the Hobbit.

This thread is about GW collapsing, not 40k. WHF died because GW fethed up 7th, or was it 8th, edition along with their nutso pricing schemes meaning it was getting to be around $100 to field a single unit at an appropriate size. GW is directly related to the collapse/boredom/etc. The problem that I understand with The Hobbit was, again, ridiculous pricing.

Other than extenuating circumstances such as moving and not having a game store, or all the game stores in town closing shop, I'd wager the #1 reason anyone gets bored with 40k is directly related to GW's business practices in some way.

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW is a company that has successfully provided entertaining products for over 30 years. If they start to bore customers now, there is something wrong.

You mention GW again...I'm talking about 40k. 40k as a setting can only have a certain amount of interest in it, logically all settings do. Eventually that interest will dry up, and those guys that you just love to hate don't really get in a look in.

Just look at how WHF collapsed and died, or the LOTR after the films faded from peoples' memories - and then failed to be re-ignited for the Hobbit.

WHF died because GW fethed up 7th, or was it 8th, edition

Gonna need a source on this because it's something I see a lot on the internet but everyone Irl just seems to have gotten bored of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Other than extenuating circumstances such as moving and not having a game store, or all the game stores in town closing shop, I'd wager the #1 reason anyone gets bored with 40k is directly related to GW's business practices in some way.

Uh, what? People get bored of 40k all the time.

That said, one of GW's weaknesses is having only two games -- WHFB and 40K. It is clear that 40K is the better selling of the two. If 40K sales collapsed, then GW would definitely be in trouble. However, I do not agree that a single setting has a finite limit of interest and will inexorably lead to the collapse of the company.

1. Napoleonics is "finite" yet it has excited the interest of wargamers for 200 years.

2. The player base can be renewed. I myself played WHFB early on, dropped out, played some 40K early on, dropped out, returned in 2004 for 4th edition, and have effectively dropped out during 6th edition. I would rejoin in the right circumstances. OTOH other people find 7th edition marvellous, so as long as they can pick up the slack of people leaving, it will be OK.

3. A company does not have to rely on one product. GW used to make many products and can do so again.

Boredom is not the cause.

You can't equate how a few people get bored with any significant impact on an international wargaming company.

There are other, more obvious reason why 40k/GW is performing the way it is.

KommissarKarl wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW is a company that has successfully provided entertaining products for over 30 years. If they start to bore customers now, there is something wrong.

You mention GW again...I'm talking about 40k. 40k as a setting can only have a certain amount of interest in it, logically all settings do. Eventually that interest will dry up, and those guys that you just love to hate don't really get in a look in.

Just look at how WHF collapsed and died, or the LOTR after the films faded from peoples' memories - and then failed to be re-ignited for the Hobbit.

WHF died because GW fethed up 7th, or was it 8th, edition

Gonna need a source on this because it's something I see a lot on the internet but everyone Irl just seems to have gotten bored of it.

There aren't any official numbers or anything anywhere that state X players left for X reason but under 7th my area (yes I know, anecdotal, but anecdotal is all we have and it at least seems to be a fairly consistent story all over the internet) was drawing 100 people to the largest tourney in the state. A year later under 8th they drew about 30 and now 4 or so years into 8th they have stopped running that particular tourney.

There has actually been a little resurgence recently but interest in Fantasy very clearly dropped off overnight when 8th hit and has been slowly growing back up to maybe a quarter of what it was.

My first 'GW' games were Hero Quest and Space Crusade. I know a lot of other people who can say the same. Those games propelled me into wargaming, and at the time the leader in terms of the player base and products was far and away GW. I can't recall much in the way of competition.
GW had a number of games to suit all budgets and all playstyles. I bought and played Necromunda, 40k, WHFB, BFG, Space Marine/Titan Legions, Doom Of the eldar, Battle for armageddon, Talisman, Horus Heresy, Warmaster, Tyranid attack. and Warhammer Quest. I skipped Man'O'War and mordheim since my pocket money and paper round could only stretch so far
My RP group switched between fantasy roleplay, AD&D, Mega Traveller and Star wars.
It seemed that GW had almost every single genre covered, skirmish, epic battles, space battles, pure strategy and roleplay. there were other games out there that arguably did it better than GW, but GW games had a more solid playerbase.

Skip forward to today, 20 years later. GW have two games.

When i want to play RP games i play D&D, when i want to play a skirmish game i play Infinity. there are more board games than ever before. no longer are the options Risk, axis and allies and monopoly! (check out 'Tabletop' on youtube, about the only decent thing wil wheaton has done since everyone wished he would die horribly on TNG)

in my area fewer and fewer people play GW games. More and more people play alternative games. and in fact, one of the only ways i ever play 40k, or any GW game now is with a friend of mine who is an unrepentant GW fanboy, or if i take Hero Quest or Space Crusade to a games night. people almost fight to get a seat at the table!

GW is in a much weaker position in the market than they were in the past. They have made some very very good games in the past, and i'm sure they can again. I would have bought space Hulk if it hadn't been a limited edition, i still might if i can convince my wife i 'need' it (unlikely).

GW needs more games like Hero Quest, Space Hulk and Talisman. Games like Horus Heresy (the 1993 version) were good examples of strategy games and were popular even with non tabletop gamers. And while there are a lot of very very good games out there, GW still has a large player base, and an even larger number of people who are sitting on the fence.

If GW did it right, and i'm sceptical that they could, they could bury the competition. otherwise, the competition will keep nibbling at them. death by a thousand cuts!

 jonolikespie wrote:

There aren't any official numbers or anything anywhere that state X players left for X reason but under 7th my area (yes I know, anecdotal, but anecdotal is all we have and it at least seems to be a fairly consistent story all over the internet) was drawing 100 people to the largest tourney in the state. A year later under 8th they drew about 30 and now 4 or so years into 8th they have stopped running that particular tourney.

There has actually been a little resurgence recently but interest in Fantasy very clearly dropped off overnight when 8th hit and has been slowly growing back up to maybe a quarter of what it was.

This is what happened in my area as well (minus the resurgence part). WHFB didn't die because of boredom, it died because all the stupid nonsense that GW did with 40k in 6th and 7th edition, they tried first with WHFB 8th edition and that caused the vast majority of the player base to say "feth this" and walk away.

madtankbloke wrote:


Skip forward to today, 20 years later. GW have two games.

in my area fewer and fewer people play GW games. More and more people play alternative games. and in fact, one of the only ways i ever play 40k, or any GW game now is with a friend of mine who is an unrepentant GW fanboy, or if i take Hero Quest or Space Crusade to a games night. people almost fight to get a seat at the table!

GW is in a much weaker position in the market than they were in the past. They have made some very very good games in the past, and i'm sure they can again. I would have bought space Hulk if it hadn't been a limited edition, i still might if i can convince my wife i 'need' it (unlikely).

GW needs more games like Hero Quest, Space Hulk and Talisman. Games like Horus Heresy (the 1993 version) were good examples of strategy games and were popular even with non tabletop gamers. And while there are a lot of very very good games out there, GW still has a large player base, and an even larger number of people who are sitting on the fence.

If GW did it right, and i'm sceptical that they could, they could bury the competition. otherwise, the competition will keep nibbling at them. death by a thousand cuts!

Edited but those are quite true.

Hero quest is an absolute blast, when you have a good GM oh my do things get funny. Our GM once had a member of the gang "dipped" in something rather nasty that got much laughter as well as all the other rude jokes that we could come up with

Even if they are running two games, they are doing stuff wrong. Personally they have run out of steam, gone are the days where what GW did was actually "interesting" and PP have took that over quite rapidly.

Lets be honest in today's world GW no longer has the dominance it once had. Somebody summed it up rather nicely "GW= The imperium" the company is beginning to resemble the fluff! They can't carry on the way they are going...

If every player gets bored at the same time, something's wrong with the company.

It does not have to be all the players, just enough of them to put a serious crimp into sales and recruitment.

KommissarKarl wrote:
... WHF died not because of anything GW did imo, but because the fanbase got bored/fatigued by the whole thing...

Really? You genuinely think that none of the changes GW made between 7th and 8th (we're on 8th now, right?) had anything to do with its sudden shrinking fanbase? People just "got bored", everywhere, at once? Are you for real? I mean, there's apologising for someone and then there's apologising for someone!

WayneTheGame wrote:
WHF died because GW fethed up 7th, or was it 8th, edition along with their nutso pricing schemes meaning it was getting to be around $100 to field a single unit at an appropriate size.

Nah brah! They just got bored. Inexplicably. Globally. Simultaneously.

Is "KommissarKarl" a synonym for "apologist", because come on.

 insaniak wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Not trying to crap all over australia but when your minimum wage is $16 and its $10 in canada and what, $7 something in america things will and should cost more.

Minimum wages are irrelevant to whether or not people should be charged a fair price. But we don't need to derail another thread with the same old arguments about equal pricing in a global market.

If you believe that minimum wage doesn't have a large impact on pricing then you don't know much about how things work. Prices are based upon people's ability and willingness to pay. Forget anything you might have been told about production costs or anything like that. Those just represent a starting point to determine if a product is viable. The MSRP for a product is based upon what the target group is able and willing to pay and the profit the seller is willing to accept. That is exactly what defines "fair". If you personally aren't willing to pay the price, then you don't need to buy it.

Every single time minimum wage increases, the cost of basics such as milk, bread, clothing, housing, etc will go up. That's not because it suddenly costs that much more to produce - the human labor component in most of those items is neglible - it's because the people are now able and willing to pay more. It usually takes about 3 months after a mandated min wage increase before things "balance" back to how they were before.

It's really not that complicated and makes complete sense if you think about it.

If you really want price parity (same product, same price regardless of location) - then wages have to be normalized across the globe. There are a LOT of things that would have to change to make this happen. Not the least of which is governments giving up on imposing tariffs and various trade restrictions based on origination of the product. Then, you'd also have to have similar education levels so that the distribution of skilled workers was such that location no longer mattered. Good luck with that as the only real way to make it happen would be to have a single world government.
=========

Back on topic:

I have a rather large collection of 40k - (~50k points across 9 armies), I started sometime after 5e was released. Since 7th hit, I've played exactly two full 40k games. I wasn't entirely crazy about how BB were handled in 6e - I think it should have been much more restrictive - and 7th's unbounded doesn't feel right as that was the entire purpose of Apoc. I just prefer games with more structure where you have to make real trade offs during the army creation phase. If they had a way of appropriately costing units based on capabilities/performance that was independent of the codex they are found in then I could see it working. However it's painfully obvious that point costs aren't exactly standardized.

All said, 7th just feels to me like one or more of the rules "designers" needs to retire. At the very least they need to hire a competent copy editor.

Now the 30k stuff is pretty solid. I find it rather amusing that ForgeWorld's HH books do a much better job of presenting Imperial history than the fluff in the core game book. It's to the point that I really think they should just put Alan Bligh in charge of 40k rule and background development and let Jervis go bother the WD team or something.

Do I think GW is "going under"? No. At least one poster compared them to Lehman brothers and Enron which is something you simply can't do. Heck, you can't even compare those two companies together as the machinations that brought them down were radically different.

What I see is this: GW continues to lose players and market share while scaling back. Existing management finally retires. New management comes in and things change. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. There is simply no way to predict the outcome. I'm not selling off my armies; but I'm certainly not spending very much with GW itself any more. I will likely pick up new FW HH books when they are released and there are two more codexes I'll likely pay for once they hit. In the meantime I'll continue painting my backlog of models and playing other games.

How does that make any sense? Should GW lower/raise prices per state in the US because of MW differences? There are some cities that are starting to have $10+ MW. Should they bump up prices there too?