Do you really think GW is "going under"?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Crablezworth**

TheKbob wrote:
Hardcover is not "high quality". It's a physical medium choice. It barely costs the printing company more on the manufacturing, usually $1-$2 (look up articles on this) extra over the soft covers. I imagine the shipping cost is what can eat into them more so than cost to make.

The color printing also can't increase the cost that much as you see it even in the small sized Malifaux book for $15. There's no way it can eat into the cost that much to justify a full color $15 mini rulebook.

So the quality improvements of hardcover and color printing are just a ruse to justify $20 price increases for minimal cost increase. They were already going to put out that content, they were already going to hire those artists; all the content was already going to be produced. So some MBA thought of the great idea to ~~make~~ dupe the consumer into thinking they were getting something of higher quality just to charge $20 more. Oh, glad to see people are still falling for that!

Now when it comes to actual content, it's gotten objectively worse, more so since the December to Remember event. We have more proofreading mistakes, more oversatured studio pictures of studio paint schemes; less conversions, no Golden Daemons, no painting guides. The layout is degrading along with the fluff losing ground to more and more photos.

And if the new Ork codex is the indicator of 7E, you've lost not only a major chunk of original artwork to more studio photos, but you've also lost one of the most useful sections in the book. It's flat out objectively worse than the previous layouts.

So yes, the quality has dropped profusely in what you pay for with the age-old ruse of putting a bit of polish on that turd. If you fall for it once, then sure, it gets us all. If keep paying for it, then shame on you.

Exalted

I haven't been able to justify a codex purchase since marines and I have thousands of points of orks and guard.

**BlaxicanX**

KommissarKarl wrote:
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.

Are you aware that competing companies sell books with superior quality and more content for lower prices?

Or do you just not care?

**Kilkrazy**

Hard cover books have always been seen as higher quality versions of books since paper backs were invented as a cheaper, lower quality option.

However a lot of people actually want a cheaper, lower quality option, and refuse to pay the publisher's asking price for the high quality version. What GW should do is issue hard back codexes and a soft back version that doesn't have the fluff and art, just the rules, for a cheaper price.

The slip case ruleset is another example. There is no doubt that separating the rules, fluff and art is a good thing, partly because it allows people who don't want the fluff and art to buy just the rules and not waste their money. Except GW have not done that.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Beano Annual 2013 - hardcover, full colour, 112 pages.
Codex Orks 2014 - hardcover, full colout, 104 pages.

One of these costs a hell of a lot more than the other, but has less pages.

**H.B.M.C.**

Codex: Space Marines - US$58, 176 pages, full colour hardback.
Only War Core Rulebook - US$59.99, 400 pages, full colour hardback

**Peregrine**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The slip case ruleset is another example. There is no doubt that separating the rules, fluff and art is a good thing, partly because it allows people who don't want the fluff and art to buy just the rules and not waste their money. Except GW have not done that.

The funny thing here is how close GW is to getting it. They've finally realized that people want to have a separate rules-only book, they just won't take that next step of making the starter set rulebook available to buy separately.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

TheKbob wrote:

And if the new Ork codex is the indicator of 7E, you've lost not only a major chunk of original artwork to more studio photos, but you've also lost one of the most useful sections in the book. It's flat out objectively worse than the previous layouts.

Ah, so you don't actually own and haven't seen the Ork codex, correct?

The new Ork codex is better than the previous one. Not as good as it could/should be, but it's better. Yes, we got annoyed when we heard they were using photos for model rules, but it makes sense in context - all the illustrations are with the fluff, it's more logically laid-out, and easier to find stuff. There are quite a few nice touches, little illustrated bits, and the repro is much better than the previous codex, where the blacks were all filled out.

On grammar/writing, they're both average and could do with better proofing. No-one in the GW studio knows how to use that word "comprises". The covers on the hardbacks aren't great quality, they wear quickly and bend in the heat. But as for "objectively worse", no, that's the standard internet blah, from the Ork news and rumours thread, where people who saw the model entries from White Dwarf were outraged, whereas those who actually bought the codex were, in many case, pleasantly surprised. "Subjectively worse", is of course possible, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The 3-volume rulebook is objectively worse (no painting tips). But as usual, with GW, people take a glass that's half empty and insist it's completely empty.

**Peregrine**

Here's an amusing comparison:

Limited edition (2000 copies) ork codex - 104 pages, $165
Limited edition (1400 copies) EVE Online art/fluff book - 197 pages, $90

There's a reason why the EVE book sold out the day it was released, but you can still buy a copy of the limited edition codex. And there's a reason why I don't regret buying the EVE book one bit, while I wouldn't even consider buying a limited-edition GW book.

**H.B.M.C.**

Hmm... I've looked over the Comi-Con schedule, and it's interesting to see what games are there:

D&D - Wizards.
BattleTech - Catalyst Games/Topps
X-Wing/Star Wars RPG - Fantasy Flight Games
Warmachine - Privateer Press

They've all got booths, and they're all running demos and intros and previews. Any reason why GW doesn't feel the need to attend the biggest popular culture convention on the planet? Their competition sure as hell thinks its a good idea.

**Steve steveson**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Codex: Space Marines - US$58, 176 pages, full colour hardback.
Only War Core Rulebook - US$59.99, 400 pages, full colour hardback

Deathwatch: The Emperor's Chosen - £27 - 144 pages
All codex's apart from Space Marines - £30 - 104 pages.

Two supplements of closer size seems a rather farer comparison to me.

Only War Core Rulebook - £40 - 400 pages, full colour hardback
Warhammer 40k core rules - £50 - 3 full color hardback book slipcase set 480 pages.
Warmachine Prime mk2 - £40 - 246 pages, full colour hardback

Core rules, again a farer comparison.

GW books seem broadly in line with other competing books to me. Yes, there is a cheaper Warmachine core roles, but that was published a year after the soft cover version, and 7th may well get the same thing as 6th did, with a cheaper version of "The Rules".

I'm not saying that GW stuff is not expensive, just that many of the comparisons are unfair and against non equivalent products.

Peregrine wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
The slip case ruleset is another example. There is no doubt that separating the rules, fluff and art is a good thing, partly because it allows people who don't want the fluff and art to buy just the rules and not waste their money. Except GW have not done that.

The funny thing here is how close GW is to getting it. They've finally realized that people want to have a separate rules-only book, they just won't take that next step of making the starter set rulebook available to buy separately.

They did. In 6th. Just not after the new edition has only been out 2 months...

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

The 3-volume rulebook is objectively worse (no painting tips). But as usual, with GW, people take a glass that's half empty and insist it's completely empty.

I think that about sums it up. Any anyone who dares to point out there is still some water in the glass is abused as a water lover.

**H.B.M.C.**

Steve steveson wrote:

Deathwatch: The Emperor's Chosen - £27 - 144 pages
All codex's apart from Space Marines - £30 - 104 pages.

Two supplements of closer size seems a rather farer comparison to me.

Only War Core Rulebook - £40 - 400 pages, full colour hardback
Warhammer 40k core rules - £50 - 3 full color hardback book slipcase set 480 pages.
Warmachine Prime mk2 - £40 - 246 pages, full colour hardback

Core rules, again a farer comparison.

And this was meant to help the argument that GW books are good value? Remove that picture book from the 40K core rules (and it's just a picture book) leaving you with the rule and fluff book and we've got a better idea. Anyway, I chose the Marine one 'cause it had the highest page count, so I was trying to be generous.

**Skinnereal**

Alpharius wrote:
I apologize in advance for asking a question which has probably already been asked and answered but...

...when is the next official GW report due?

It is soon, isn't it?

And won't that help 'answer' a lot of these questions?

If this is anything to go by, it's the 29th, as the last Tuesday in July:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/financial-calendar/

**Peregrine**

Steve steveson wrote:
They did. In 6th. Just not after the new edition has only been out 2 months...

But that's the point. They finally made a separate rulebook (though in hardcover, which we didn't want), but only after everyone had to buy the full 6th edition rulebook if they wanted to play the game. Now with 7th they've split the rulebook into three separate books for fluff/painting/rules, they just need to start selling the rules without the extra stuff bundled with it.

**Wayshuba**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... I've looked over the Comi-Con schedule, and it's interesting to see what games are there:

D&D - Wizards.
BattleTech - Catalyst Games/Topps
X-Wing/Star Wars RPG - Fantasy Flight Games
Warmachine - Privateer Press

They've all got booths, and they're all running demos and intros and previews. Any reason why GW doesn't feel the need to attend the biggest popular culture convention on the planet? Their competition sure as hell thinks its a good idea.

/sarcasimon

Because GW doesn't have any competition according to them.

/sarcasimoff

**PhantomViper**

Steve steveson wrote:

Only War Core Rulebook - £40 - 400 pages, full colour hardback
Warhammer 40k core rules - £50 - 3 full color hardback book slipcase set 480 pages.
Warmachine Prime mk2 - £40 - 246 pages, full colour hardback

Core rules, again a farer comparison.

Where are you getting that price for the WM Hardcover? The price is £30 not £40. (or to be more exact £27).

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/books/warmachine-prime-mk-ii

Steve steveson wrote:

Yes, there is a cheaper Warmachine core roles, but that was published a year after the soft cover version, and 7th may well get the same thing as 6th did, with a cheaper version of "The Rules".

Also, what do you mean by this? Are you talking about the smaller rulebook that comes with the two player starter? Because the softcover rulebook that was released as soon as MK2 hit, already only costs £18 so the smaller rulebook is more for convenience sake rather than any actual savings...

**Wayshuba**

Steve steveson wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Codex: Space Marines - US$58, 176 pages, full colour hardback.
Only War Core Rulebook - US$59.99, 400 pages, full colour hardback

Deathwatch: The Emperor's Chosen - £27 - 144 pages
All codex's apart from Space Marines - £30 - 104 pages.

Two supplements of closer size seems a rather farer comparison to me.

Only War Core Rulebook - £40 - 400 pages, full colour hardback
Warhammer 40k core rules - £50 - 3 full color hardback book slipcase set 480 pages.
Warmachine Prime mk2 - £40 - 246 pages, full colour hardback

Core rules, again a farer comparison.

GW books seem broadly in line with other competing books to me. Yes, there is a cheaper Warmachine core roles, but that was published a year after the soft cover version, and 7th may well get the same thing as 6th did, with a cheaper version of "The Rules".

I'm not saying that GW stuff is not expensive, just that many of the comparisons are unfair and against non equivalent products.

Peregrine wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
The slip case ruleset is another example. There is no doubt that separating the rules, fluff and art is a good thing, partly because it allows people who don't want the fluff and art to buy just the rules and not waste their money. Except GW have not done that.

The funny thing here is how close GW is to getting it. They've finally realized that people want to have a separate rules-only book, they just won't take that next step of making the starter set rulebook available to buy separately.

They did. In 6th. Just not after the new edition has only been out 2 months...

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

The 3-volume rulebook is objectively worse (no painting tips). But as usual, with GW, people take a glass that's half empty and insist it's completely empty.

I think that about sums it up. Any anyone who dares to point out there is still some water in the glass is abused as a water lover.

If we are going to talk about core rules, you have to put it truly into perspective of someone new getting into the game. All items quoted are US list prices with hardcovers:

Warhammer 40k - $135 (Yes, $135 because you need the core rules AND at least one codex minimum to play the game).
Warmachine MkII - $45
Infinity - $45 (but you can actually get this down to $0 as the full rules, army lists and model profiles are available for download)
Hell Dorado - $45
Bolt Action - $35 ($60 if you want to buy an army book that isn't really needed to play)

So, not only is GW more expensive on a per book basis, but the overall purchase required just to start the game is over-the-top compared to all their competition.

**Toofast**

I bought the physical SW codex because I play them but I have the others to reference when I play against some familiar opponents so I don't have to keep asking to see their book when I have a question. Everyone here likes to pretend there's just no possible way to play without spending $135 on rules and that isn't true.
1. Every GW (where I play 95% of my games) has store copies of every rulebook and has never had a problem with people using them for games
2. You can buy the mini rule book out of storm claw for $30 on ebay

I'm not sure if people aren't aware of these things or if they just like to pretend those options don't exist so they have something else to complain about regarding GW.

Edited by motyak

**Wayniac**

Toofast wrote:
I bought the physical SW codex because I play them but I have the others to reference when I play against some familiar opponents so I don't have to keep asking to see their book when I have a question. Everyone here likes to pretend there's just no possible way to play without spending $135 on rules and that isn't true.
1. Every GW (where I play 95% of my games) has store copies of every rulebook and has never had a problem with people using them for games
2. You can buy the mini rule book out of storm claw for $30 on ebay

I'm not sure if people aren't aware of these things or if they just like to pretend those options don't exist so they have something else to complain about regarding GW.

Seriously?

I don't think pointing out you can pirate the books is justification for saying they aren't expensive. I could steal a Ferrari too, it must not be that expensive...

Nor is saying eBay as we are comparing retail. Those things you mention are being ignored because they are irrelevant.

Edited the quote too

**Accolade**

I'm sorry, but you can't seriously be recommended ripping the books from the Internet as a cheaper alternative than buying them, right?

edit: ninja'd

**motyak**

As other users have stated, dakka does not condone piracy in any form. Posts will be edited, if you have any questions feel free to PM me

**KommissarKarl**

BlaxicanX wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.

Are you aware that competing companies sell books with superior quality and more content for lower prices?

Or do you just not care?

SInce I don't play those other games, they could be free and I still wouldn't care.

Also I'd wait for an actual review of the two before agreeing with you on that. Everything in an anti-gw thread is better and cheaper than GW, despite nonsense "evidence" to the contrary

**Wayniac**

KommissarKarl wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.

Are you aware that competing companies sell books with superior quality and more content for lower prices?

Or do you just not care?

SInce I don't play those other games, they could be free and I still wouldn't care.

Also I'd wait for an actual review of the two before agreeing with you on that. Everything in an anti-gw thread is better and cheaper than GW, despite nonsense "evidence" to the contrary

If by "nonsense evidence to the contrary" you mean incorrect comparisons (e.g. comparing price per model rather than price to play at X size) then sure.

**KommissarKarl**

WayneTheGame wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.

Are you aware that competing companies sell books with superior quality and more content for lower prices?

Or do you just not care?

SInce I don't play those other games, they could be free and I still wouldn't care.

Also I'd wait for an actual review of the two before agreeing with you on that. Everything in an anti-gw thread is better and cheaper than GW, despite nonsense "evidence" to the contrary

If by "nonsense evidence to the contrary" you mean incorrect comparisons (e.g. comparing price per model rather than price to play at X size) then sure.

That's not what botheres me, since I rarely see "40k costs a LOT more than its competitors, because it's battles are a LOT bigger". I just see "40k costs a LOT more than its competitors."

**A Town Called Malus**

KommissarKarl wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
KommissarKarl wrote:
It's not a higher value product *to you*. To me it is. I like the colour and the artwork, and I know I'm not alone in this, there was a lot of positive feedback for the hardback codexes.

Are you aware that competing companies sell books with superior quality and more content for lower prices?

Or do you just not care?

SInce I don't play those other games, they could be free and I still wouldn't care.

Also I'd wait for an actual review of the two before agreeing with you on that. Everything in an anti-gw thread is better and cheaper than GW, despite nonsense "evidence" to the contrary

If by "nonsense evidence to the contrary" you mean incorrect comparisons (e.g. comparing price per model rather than price to play at X size) then sure.

That's not what botheres me, since I rarely see "40k costs a LOT more than its competitors, because it's battles are a LOT bigger". I just see "40k costs a LOT more than its competitors."

It's battles are bigger only in model count. The actual unit count (as in how many models which act independently of other models) is often the same or, in some cases, less.

Add in the fact that the rules are really badly designed for having that many models and... well...

**Kilkrazy**

Peregrine wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
The slip case ruleset is another example. There is no doubt that separating the rules, fluff and art is a good thing, partly because it allows people who don't want the fluff and art to buy just the rules and not waste their money. Except GW have not done that.

The funny thing here is how close GW is to getting it. They've finally realized that people want to have a separate rules-only book, they just won't take that next step of making the starter set rulebook available to buy separately.

I know! I was really surprised that they did not offer the slip-case as the special edition and the same rules-only book for say £20 as a stand-alone item.

I actually thought that was the idea of splitting it into three sections. Largely because it is something I have been requesting since 5th edition, and because in 6th edition they brought out the hardback rules only book, that I would have bought if I hadn't already got the softback one and/or if it had been less expensive.

I presume GW were worried that most people would buy the cheaper book if available rather than the complete set.

As a model selling company it is a bit strange they don't want the game rules to be as accessible as possible.

**Wayniac**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I presume GW were worried that most people would buy the cheaper book if available rather than the complete set.

Given most of their past decisions this is likely exactly the reasoning: Can't sell it standalone, because people would buy that and not the full rulebook, so you aren't selling it for as much as you should.

I can only assume that, like most everything else with GW, they figure that people will go out of their way to find the rules (at the local GW store

...) if they want to play games with their collection, otherwise they'll be happy to just build up huge armies that I guess sit there on display? Not 100% sure what they really think people do with the figures.

**KommissarKarl**

They want the rules to be as accessable as possible, just not at a price that most people would want to pay

I think if they released a small paperback edition of the news at the same time as the big rulebook, not many people would buy the big rulebook. Or at least, significantly less.

**Tigurius**

To answer the original question - No. They aren't going under.

Are some of their business practises questionable? Yeah.
Are their pricing and evident money spinning strategies spoiling what could be an excellent franchise? Sure.
Are a lot of GW customers and critics disillusioned by the direction the business is headed? Definitely.

But is the business tanking it? I really doubt it.

The support is too strong and too many people play warhammer for the company to start failing. The market might shift less from kids towards young adults.

In my local GW which is considered a "1st company store" i.e. best in terms on takings, there has been a noticable shift. Young kids aren't able to afford on their pocket money, but there's a increased and sizable following of 18-30 years olds, possibly because there aren't crowds of annoying brats and the hobby a little more "mature". But yeah, I know my anecdotal experience can't be considered representative by any means.

**Wayshuba**

Tigurius wrote:
To answer the original question - No. They aren't going under.

Are some of their business practises questionable? Yeah.
Are their pricing and evident money spinning strategies spoiling what could be an excellent franchise? Sure.
Are a lot of GW customers and critics disillusioned by the direction the business is headed? Definitely.

But is the business tanking it? I really doubt it.

The support is too strong and too many people play warhammer for the company to start failing. The market might shift less from kids towards young adults.

In my local GW which is considered a "1st company store" i.e. best in terms on takings, there has been a noticable shift. Young kids aren't able to afford on their pocket money, but there's a increased and sizable following of 18-30 years olds, possibly because there aren't crowds of annoying brats and the hobby a little more "mature". But yeah, I know my anecdotal experience can't be considered representative by any means.

The same was said about TSR just a year before they were out of business. Next week, when the financials are published, we'll see just how healthy GW really is.

All of GWs practices lead to an ultimate tipping point in business. Once this point is crossed, it is like walking off a cliff and things tend to go down relatively quickly from there. Unless they recover from a double-digit decline in sales and even greater decline in profits in this next period, most are going to be surprised just how fast their business will unravel.

**Tigurius**

Whilst I agree tipping points are probably closer than a business like GW should be anywhere near reaching, I don't think your analogy to TSR is quite right.

GW is a bigger business with actual stores, I can't see it happening, certainly not in the way that they shut shop.