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Herzlos wrote:

The only grumping I've seen about SR are: That it's a limted run and that it's the only way to get the LE figures or mini rulebook. All are valid concerns. Why should you have to buy another rule book to get a character, or why should you have to buy 2 starter armies and a campaign book to get a mini rulebook? What someone joining the hobby in a few months wants the character or mini book? Will they think that's a good thing or a stupid decision?

They have this great site called eBay. You can buy models cheaply there. You can also sell your surplus items there. With Stormclaw you can keep the bits you want, as we will, and sell the rest.
Otherwise, hopefully a lot of gamers have friends. You can go halves on a box, or divvy it up between several of you. We'll also hopefully be swapping the Space Wolf terminators for some Killa Kans on the dakkadakka swapshop.

Maybe the set will help you make more friends. And that's priceless, ain't it?

The Division Of Joy wrote:
You haven't answered my question.

I'm not interested in what GW should have done, I simply want to know what they should do now.

Except that the two are intrinsically linked.

The desire for a smaller, paperback rulebook isn't a new thing. People have been asking for it to be released separately since the AoBR set arrived in 4th edition.

So it shouldn't be a matter of GW having to suddenly decide to release it after having printed up a boatload of hardcover books. After three previous editions of people asking for it, a small-format softcover release should have been factored until the 7th Ed release schedule, and publicised when 7th Ed dropped.

 insaniak wrote:


So it shouldn't be a matter of GW having to suddenly decide to release it after having printed up a boatload of hardcover books.

This is hardly a uniquely evil, price-gouging move. Most publishers in the world print a hardback first, for those who can't wait, and then a cheaper paperback six months or a year later. And few hardback books hold their value as well as current rulebooks (we bought ours for £37.50 and sold it for £41, inc postage, to fund the new set)

GW have not made the softback rulebook available separately, though.

Probably a lot of people would never buy the hardback if the softback were quickly and easily available.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

The only grumping I've seen about SR are: That it's a limted run and that it's the only way to get the LE figures or mini rulebook. All are valid concerns. Why should you have to buy another rule book to get a character, or why should you have to buy 2 starter armies and a campaign book to get a mini rulebook? What someone joining the hobby in a few months wants the character or mini book? Will they think that's a good thing or a stupid decision?

They have this great site called eBay. You can buy models cheaply there. You can also sell your surplus items there. With Stormclaw you can keep the bits you want, as we will, and sell the rest.
Otherwise, hopefully a lot of gamers have friends. You can go halves on a box, or divvy it up between several of you. We'll also hopefully be swapping the Space Wolf terminators for some Killa Kans on the dakkadakka swapshop.

Maybe the set will help you make more friends. And that's priceless, ain't it? ]

Except you're assuming that enough people will want the models you don't, but also don't want the rulebook. Sure some will see it as a cheap way to get the minis, but if everyone is seeing it as a cheap way to get the rules you're still suck for getting the rules, no?

Plus being able to sell the bits I don't want isn't justification for not being able to buy the bits I want directly. I probably will get the mini book on eBay (I've got a few bids in), but I'd much rather just buy the book from a store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


So it shouldn't be a matter of GW having to suddenly decide to release it after having printed up a boatload of hardcover books.

This is hardly a uniquely evil, price-gouging move. Most publishers in the world print a hardback first, for those who can't wait, and then a cheaper paperback six months or a year later. And few hardback books hold their value as well as current rulebooks (we bought ours for £37.50 and sold it for £41, inc postage, to fund the new set)

The key difference is that most publishers are producing fiction, not rules for a social game. You can wait 6+ months for a book series to come out, because you can read other things first. If you game at a club, store or in any tournaments (essentially everything beyond your own home) then you'll probably need to be using the current book in order to join in.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Plenty of people are praising the Stormclaw set. Plenty of people are hoping they'll do more campaign boxes. And plenty of grumps are being grumpy.

And plenty of people generalising in an attempt to ignore the real points being made.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
And of course selling out has to do with the value.

You can't know that. And it's more likely that it sold out because they only made so many of them, not because it was such an amazing deal.

I'll also make the same point here I did in the Sanctus Reach N+R thread.

Crusade Of Fire "sold out" within an extremely short time, I remember because I was away at the time, and was particularly pleased I'd managed to grab this super special limited edition book while on my phone travelling through central London.

There were/are still copies lying around in FLGS's nearly two years down the line, and they barely reach more than half their RRP on eBay, last I looked.

That the boxed set has "sold out" means nothing until the product actually hits the shops, then, if it is still hard to come by, it might mean something.

Has anyone been able to get this pre-ordered at a local, non-GW, store. None of the stores in my area have a clue how many of these box sets they will get. I have been told GW is not communicating with them very well.
I am a recreational gamer and GW is frustrating to me latley. Ork release was so lame. Had to wait weeks to see pics of new models, let alone buy them.
Now they release a new box set that required you to be tapped into GW and gaming blogs real time to get a shot at purchasing.
Love the models and playing a game with tons of them on the table, but GW is causing me more stress and disappointment than I like to have in my hobby.

 tinker wrote:
Has anyone been able to get this pre-ordered at a local, non-GW, store. None of the stores in my area have a clue how many of these box sets they will get. I have been told GW is not communicating with them very well.
I am a recreational gamer and GW is frustrating to me latley. Ork release was so lame. Had to wait weeks to see pics of new models, let alone buy them.
Now they release a new box set that required you to be tapped into GW and gaming blogs real time to get a shot at purchasing.
Love the models and playing a game with tons of them on the table, but GW is causing me more stress and disappointment than I like to have in my hobby.

Hold onto that thought.

 insaniak wrote:

 Massawyrm wrote:
Also keep in mind that GW is still limited by the amount of shelf space they are afforded by hobby stores.

I would suspect the bigger factor is how much shelf space they have in their own stores, since they dictate the range that independants need to carry anyway.

Yeah, I don't think they want to commit shelf or warehouse space to it long-term. We can't know how their numbers work out without being on the inside, but it may very well be a good marketing strategy.

Well, I just called my GW and they said they can't take pre-orders but they are getting a shipment of them in store Saturday. So this might not be as limited edition as you think. Maybe they just screwed the pre-order process.

Could it be that many people just don't get the feeling that they are getting "something of value" anymore from GW?

Like the limited edition books I mentioned earlier, I loved those books. They were made well, looked great and drew people's attention on my bookshelf.

But that's the only thing I really ever "collected" from GW, their limited edition books.

Nothing else ever really felt worth it.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
This is hardly a uniquely evil, price-gouging move. Most publishers in the world print a hardback first, for those who can't wait, and then a cheaper paperback six months or a year later.

Indeed. The point is that GW doesn't do this.

 insaniak wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
This is hardly a uniquely evil, price-gouging move. Most publishers in the world print a hardback first, for those who can't wait, and then a cheaper paperback six months or a year later.

Indeed. The point is that GW doesn't do this.

I agree, and it annoys me.

That said, it's not at all unusual for a company to make a feature or item available only in a higher cost package sometimes even when it's a more "basic" amenity. . Look at the car industry. A fair number of cars are only available in manual at higher packages. And how many cars do you have to purchase a higher trim level, just to have the color red. I've long ago determined that GW is not terribly concerned with what we want. Thus, if GW has something that they know people want, it kind of makes sense for them to force us to buy something else to get it.

I don't like it, but it has a twisted kind of logic. Just another aspect of the "get-em-young and get-their-money before they-get-out" playbook they seem to be using.

Litcheur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The new Stormclaw box in 40k is limited edition as were other products of GW in the past.

GW Logic : why would you sell 10,000 Void Shield Generators if you can sell 1,000 of them ?

Why produce 10,000 if you don't know you will sell 10,000? You will need to pay to make the product, package it, and store it. If it sells out quickly, do another limited edition run of them. It's not like they are limited in the sense that people want a numbered print or something of that nature because they are valuable. If that were the case, you would not take it out of the box and keep it in the plastic.

Litcheur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
What's the whole thing with impuls buys? Does it make sense in the miniature market?

Impulse buying makes a lot of sense in the miniature market. You go to your FLGS because you planned to buy one boardgame, and you just buy one boardgame and two extra minis.

But one doesn't need a PhD in rocket science to understand that luxury products and impulse buying are often mutually exclusive.
Hey, honey, look, there's that luxury car dealer on the other side of the road, I feel the urge to buy an Aston Martin.

In GW's case, let's just say impulse buying may not work if you're trying to sell BMW cars with Aston Martin pricetags that can only be bought in your own dedicated stores.

Not sure I follow the analogy - unless you're Scrooge McDuck or have so much money that 3 times the average household annual income is pocket change for you, a car is not an impulse buy. Besides BMW is introducing the new M5 with a $138,000 price tag and they have already been sold before they have been built. It will have 400 hp and there will only be 30 of these bad boys in the US. Truly a limited edition.

Technically, anything you don't need to survive or maintain your status quo is a luxury item. Video games, TVs, hobbies, and any other toys would all be luxury items. As far as toy soldiers go, GW makes some of the best mass produced customizable models on the market. You are paying for all of the options when you buy you models. All of the bits used and unused that are later kit bashed later on to something else. You are not buying 10 marines, you are buying 10 marines and the extra bits for other models. It's why 5 stern guard cost so much. Combine them with a tactical box and you can really have fun and use the bits. That's what GW does well. I can buy the same box as you and make my models look completely different from every other one out there through kit bashing, forge world bits, paint, etc. That is the big selling point for GW.

Impulse buys would be new dice, a white dwarf, a paint pot, or whatever else they have that sits up at the register that they ask you about last minute. You're not there to specifically buy that but you pick it up anyway. My last impulse buy was a couple of edge highlight paints.

Edited to fix the quotes. These things are a pain in the arse to fix on an iPad.

boyd wrote:

Litcheur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The new Stormclaw box in 40k is limited edition as were other products of GW in the past.

GW Logic : why would you sell 10,000 Void Shield Generators if you can sell 1,000 of them ?

Why produce 10,000 if you don't know you will sell 10,000? You will need to pay to make the product, package it, and store it. If it sells out quickly, do another limited edition run of them. It's not like they are limited in the sense that people want a numbered print or something of that nature because they are valuable. If that were the case, you would not take it out of the box and keep it in the plastic

The problem there is not knowing how many they can sell. That's why communication with your customers to assess demand is useful and how normal companies operate. The lack of communication and the missed opportunities resulting from it are a big part of why GW cop so much flak.

boyd wrote:

Litcheur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The new Stormclaw box in 40k is limited edition as were other products of GW in the past.

GW Logic : why would you sell 10,000 Void Shield Generators if you can sell 1,000 of them ?

Why produce 10,000 if you don't know you will sell 10,000? You will need to pay to make the product, package it, and store it. If it sells out quickly, do another limited edition run of them. It's not like they are limited in the sense that people want a numbered print or something of that nature because they are valuable. If that were the case, you would not take it out of the box and keep it in the plastic

Because two productions runs of 1000 is disproportionately more expensive than one of 2000.

Because practically every company on the planet that is manufacturing goods for sale will have mechanisms in place to assess the demand of a new product and to manufacture accordingly. It's not a precise art, but it should mitigate massive under supply issues (and consequently lost sales.)

Because it makes sense to make 5000, whose production costs would be recouped by the sales of 1000, and then everything from sale 1001 is pure gross profit. If you only manage to sell 2000 at full price, you then discount the remainder, because it doesn't matter what you then sell them for, because it is essentially free money at that point.

Small run, limited edition runs have their place, but I don't feel they're appropriate for something that literally any player in the game is eligible to use. Pure much better employing that technique for alternate sculpts and the like, where you're in a position to recover the higher overhead through a higher RRP that isn't unexpected by the consumer, and are catering to a percentage of a percentage of your customer base. (For instance, an alt Ork Warboss would only really appeal to a number of players who play Orks, and perhaps a few painters.)

And while all of that is going on you are paying top dollar to store 4,000 boxes of resin terrain. This may be more than the cost of production.

In a company that is cutting costs I don't imagine too many people will want to put their hand up for such a speculative punt as 5,000 even bearing in mind the possible returns.

Many people here that have said "should have made x thousand more" are seem to also be the same that ones "that things ugly, it will never sell".

One thing that's very relevant is the tiny size of a lot of GW stores. They don't have a lot of shelf space at all (OK, we're from London, where the Oxford St and Covent Garden stores are about the size of yer average toilet). The fact they don't tend to stock many HQs really has to cut down on impulse purchases.

A series of limited boxes that sell out could well be a pretty efficient use of shelf space. Doesn't help big traders like Dark Sphere, who have masses of space, but it's good for small outlets.

 notprop wrote:
And while all of that is going on you are paying top dollar to store 4,000 boxes of resin terrain. This may be more than the cost of production.

In a company that is cutting costs I don't imagine too many people will want to put their hand up for such a speculative punt as 5,000 even bearing in mind the possible returns.

Many people here that have said "should have made x thousand more" are seem to also be the same that ones "that things ugly, it will never sell".

Unless you already have the storage space. There's definitely a balance between having too many taking up space and not having enough to sell. Most companies would interact with customers to find out, or re-issue a run when they nearly sell out. I suspect that GW doesn't re-run something because with the weekly schedule they are onto the next wave, and aren't concerned about the long tail as most customers buy everything on release.

GW own their warehouses don't they? So all it technically costs them to store is the opportunity for putting something else in that space.

Equally, they're not opening stores especially to hold their LE stock, so, again, the only cost is the space that could hold something that might sell quicker for more profit.

Those costs, diffused over the whole inventory, are unlikely to be higher than production. In fact, I don't suspect they'd be that high at all.

n/m

Especially since they don't have to even store them boxed, or on-site, and have their own plastic production.

I don't know how long it takes to change over a plastic injection mould but I'm assuming they can schedule runes for anything within a couple of weeks. Really the only thing they need to bulk order and store is the boxes, which will come flat on pallets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

boyd wrote:
Why produce 10,000 if you don't know you will sell 10,000? You will need to pay to make the product, package it, and store it. If it sells out quickly, do another limited edition run of them. It's not like they are limited in the sense that people want a numbered print or something of that nature because they are valuable. If that were the case, you would not take it out of the box and keep it in the plastic.

That's not a compelling counter-argument. You make 1000. If they sell you make some more. If they sell you make more. You don't make 1000, have them sell out within an hour or so, and never ever make it again.

That sounds suspiciously like what everyone else does.

I deleted my post as it was already covered (and better than I put it).

And notprop's theory of the other 4000 doesn't hold water. Why are they holding the other 4000? To see if the first 1000 sell? And why are they paying "top dollar"? I've said on many occasions that holding stock is costly, and that's the reason why GW don't have a bitz service any more, but they wouldn't be holding the 4000. They'd be selling them much like the first 1000.

 azreal13 wrote:
GW own their warehouses don't they? So all it technically costs them to store is the opportunity for putting something else in that space.

Equally, they're not opening stores especially to hold their LE stock, so, again, the only cost is the space that could hold something that might sell quicker for more profit.

Those costs, diffused over the whole inventory, are unlikely to be higher than production. In fact, I don't suspect they'd be that high at all.

I believe it's just the one warehouse, in Lenton - and deliveries once a week. Stock levels are standardised, to some extent, I don't know how much, across branches (a stupid move, which nearly killed Waterstone's) so a quicker turnover of a series of LE products would almost certainly be more efficient.

Of course there's always the possibility of diminishing returns, for instance the mini-rulebook will be less of a draw once there are more around. ( Until we get 8th edition in the fall, of course. )

 notprop wrote:
And while all of that is going on you are paying top dollar to store 4,000 boxes of resin terrain. This may be more than the cost of production.

In a company that is cutting costs I don't imagine too many people will want to put their hand up for such a speculative punt as 5,000 even bearing in mind the possible returns.

Many people here that have said "should have made x thousand more" are seem to also be the same that ones "that things ugly, it will never sell".

And also the ones who laugh and point at GW whenever they have something LE that don't sell out instantly, like dreadfleet and some of the LE Codexes.

Also, the sense of entitlement of some people is really grating me now. "Why are they not selling X on it's own". Because they don't want to and as private company don't have to. This isn't complaints about prices or poor customer service, this is just "I am entitled to buy the rulebook/mini/force/whatever how I want!". GW have chosen, rightly or wrongly sales wise, not to offer those that way at the moment. You may think it is the wrong choice, but doing it in such a negative way just comes across so badly.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Because they don't want to and as private company don't have to.

They're a publicly traded company. They are the exact opposite of a private company.

azreal13 wrote:GW own their warehouses don't they? ............

Do they?

All I know is that holding stock that doesn't sell is a liability that you have to store, then in time has to be written off.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I deleted my post as it was already covered (and better than I put it).

And notprop's theory of the other 4000 doesn't hold water. Why are they holding the other 4000? To see if the first 1000 sell? And why are they paying "top dollar"? I've said on many occasions that holding stock is costly, and that's the reason why GW don't have a bitz service any more, but they wouldn't be holding the 4000. They'd be selling them much like the first 1000.

I didn't suggest (or mean to) that they would make stock to hold back. I was just pointing out that over stock that doesn't sell (a big factor in speculative production) would is a cost. Getting the line between the max that will sell and manufacture is the sweet spot, but in a company that wants low risk turnover a limited run could be attractive even if the opportunity cost of that was selling twice as many, as that would be at greater risk on top of increase manufacturing costs.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
GW own their warehouses don't they? So all it technically costs them to store is the opportunity for putting something else in that space.

Equally, they're not opening stores especially to hold their LE stock, so, again, the only cost is the space that could hold something that might sell quicker for more profit.

Those costs, diffused over the whole inventory, are unlikely to be higher than production. In fact, I don't suspect they'd be that high at all.

I believe it's just the one warehouse, in Lenton - and deliveries once a week. Stock levels are standardised, to some extent, I don't know how much, across branches (a stupid move, which nearly killed Waterstone's) so a quicker turnover of a series of LE products would almost certainly be more efficient.

Of course there's always the possibility of diminishing returns, for instance the mini-rulebook will be less of a draw once there are more around. ( Until we get 8th edition in the fall, of course. )

There's definitely at least Memphis too.

Agreed, holding stock in branches is an inefficient way of doing things, it was a major factor in the demise of the company I held my last employed position with - I estimated I held almost 10K in redundant stock in my branch alone (in a company with almost 100 locations, and I know for a fact I was at the thin end, because I insisted on being able to return a bunch of stuff when I first took the branch over) but when we're talking about LE stuff then the rules will be slightly different, as long as there is a mechanism to ensure those branches in need can get stock from those branches with excess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

azreal13 wrote:GW own their warehouses don't they? ............

Do they?

All I know is that holding stock that doesn't sell is a liability that you have to store, then in time has to be written off.

Which can be offset against tax, and, as I mentioned, once you've broken even on the sales you did make, is totally irrelevant.

Stock is also an asset, not a liability, in an accounting sense.

Don't get me wrong, you are correct in that a company that overinvests in inventory and then has to spend money on somewhere to put it all, is not likely long for this world, but the optimum is to always have a small percentage left over, because that means you've fulfilled every sale possible, recovered your costs, made a profit, and then have a small amount of wastage.

Of course, as with many things, this is much harder to achieve in reality than it is to talk about, but it is the good standard to strive for.

My view is that GW have a reasonable idea of how many Space Wolf and Ork players there are, and have decided to take a discount from that figure to ensure they sell out the whole production run quickly.

This makes their budget planning easy though it leaves some potential sales on the table, so to speak.

I think it also primes the market to expect more similar products which people will jump on quickly to avoid missing out.