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- Does the template for Torrent weapons have to be placed exactly as for a weapon which doesn't have the Torrent special rule? I mean, can the template be placed almost sideways, though still with the narrow end closer than the wide end?

- If a Psyker on a Bike Turbo boosts and thereby uses "all his concentration and skills" will psychic powers which he just manifested be nullified?

Chaospling wrote:
- Does the template for Torrent weapons have to be placed exactly as for a weapon which doesn't have the Torrent special rule? I mean, can the template be placed almost sideways, though still with the narrow end closer than the wide end?

- If a Psyker on a Bike Turbo boosts and thereby uses "all his concentration and skills" will psychic powers which he just manifested be nullified?

1. Yes. However, at that point, it depends on the model as to if you have line of sight. If you don't have LoS, then you can't cause wounds. (In this case, anyway)

2. No. That's just a fluffy statement.

Edit: I assume this is a 7th edition question, by the way. I just remembered the Psyker thing is different in 6th.

Note about the turbo boosting however.

It says a model that turbo boosts in the movement phase cannot shoot.

This means that he cant fire off psychic shooting attacks either.

He can cast blessings, and maeladictions with no penalty, but wichfires and focused wichfires are still shooting attacks so if the model is not allowed to shoot, then he cant use em.

So you've had a lot of incorrect advice so far:

Torrent are templates so all the template rules apply (must cover most models etc) however you start upto 12" from your away and you can place side ways. You must be able too see some of the target unit but otherwise you can cause wounds out of LoS with template weapons.

The Psychic phase and shooting phase are not linked. In 6th turbo boosting prevented you from using witchfires. That is no longer the case as turboboosting only prevents you shooting that phase.

@FlingitNow:

Ah yes, it says so specifically that using a Witchfire during the Psychic phase doesn't prevent the psyker from running, turbo-boosting or shooting during the Shooting phase.

While in a bike thou remember if you jink with a psyker the witchfires would still need to be fired as snapshots, and I'm not sure if you can even use the blast/template witchfire spells.

FlingitNow,
I don't feel like having that discussion again so I will simply point people back to the last one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603719.page

If the Restrictions on placing a Template weapon apply to Torrent's unique placement Rule, then Torrent is useless as one of the restrictions is to place the template in base to base contact with the firing model.
Something which still can legally be done for torrent weapons, so if Template Restrictions related to placement must still be obeyed....

Jinx, you were mistaken then, and you are mistaken now.

I agree the other thread is the place for this, but go ahead and start a poll if you want...

All I keep asking is one simple question:
Why would this one Restriction on placement over-turned, but the other Restrictions are not?

The only answer provided was to state that the other Restrictions can still be obeyed, so they must therefore be obeyed. The only problem with that answer, as I keep pointing out, is that the requirement to touch the narrow end of the Template to the Base of the Model is also a Restriction that can still be obeyed within the Torrent Special Rule! As the answer provided requires us to obey any Restriction which we can follow, unless it creates a "direct conflict," then the Torrent based Template must also be put into Base contact with the Firing Model because the ability to do so proves it is not a "direct conflict" between the two Rules.

Therefore I can only conclude that the instructions on Placing a Template via Torrent are more specific, and most over-write the entire section related to how a Template is Placed in order to function.

JinxDragon wrote:
All I keep asking is one simple question:
Why would this one Restriction on placement over-turned, but the other Restrictions are not?

Because there is a conflict with base to base Vs 12 inches range, and as such the 'place within 12 inches' advanced rule overrides the basic 'Must touch the base' rule.

This is all explained in the linked thread though so I wont go further into it.

If the Template is put into Base contact with the firing Model, has the Torrent Rule been broken?

I never did get an answer to this one either -
Remind me how many times people on this forum state permission to do X does not over-write Restriction Y unless it specifically addresses Y?

JinxDragon wrote:
If the Template is put into Base contact with the firing Model, has the Torrent Rule been broken?

No, but if you place the marker 11 inches away the regular template rule has been broken so the advanced rule of torrent trumps the basic rules in this case.

I never did get an answer to this one either -
Remind me how many times people on this forum state permission to do X does not over-write Restriction Y unless it specifically addresses Y?

I do not keep a metric of how many times this occurs.

JinxDragon wrote:
If the Template is put into Base contact with the firing Model, has the Torrent Rule been broken?

I never did get an answer to this one either -
Remind me how many times people on this forum state permission to do X does not over-write Restriction Y unless it specifically addresses Y?

Even if that situation doesn't break the torrent rules, how does it lead to "I get to ignore every aspect of the template rules while using a template weapon"?

Why then, if it is possible to place a Torrent Template while obeying all the Template Restrictions, do you state that we have permission to ignore that Restriction and that Restriction alone?

As for the permission to carry out X not over-writing Restriction Y thing; it is acceptable that you wouldn't have an answer for how many times it occurs because I was highlighting that it occurs so very often. It is a fundamental concept that the Rule has to address a Restriction in order to over-turn it, and not simply provide Permission to carry out an action that would otherwise be illegal if the Restriction is still in play. As your side requires placement Restrictions to still be in play, and there is no mention of this one particular Restriction within the Special Rule itself, then the Restriction trumps Permission to place it in an alternative method.

After all, it is clearly impossible to state the two Rules creates a "direct conflict" when there is a legal way to obey both Rules....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crownaxe,
Not every aspect of Template Rules, only those directly related to how the Template is placed.
As Torrent is a set of alternate instructions for how we place said Template, it can be stated they trump the entire section on how to place a default Template by being 'more advanced.'

JinxDragon wrote:
Why then, if it is possible to place a Torrent Template while obeying all the Template Restrictions, do you state that we have permission to ignore that Restriction and that Restriction alone?

Because the basic rule tells us to place the template in base contact with the model firing the weapon and the advanced torrent rules tell us to place the template up to 12 inches away.

Therefore, by following the advanced rule of torrent, and placing the template 6 inches away you nreak the regular template rules, but you ahve permission to break them because of the torrent rules.

where is your permission to break the 'must cover as many enemy models in the target unit as possible' rules of templates?

Does torrent say that it does not apply? if not then it still applies.

The same place, by using Torrent as an alternative set of Rules when it comes to placing the Template:
As long as the narrow end is within 12 inches we have legally placed the Template by the Torrent Rules, any conflict created by the original placement Restrictions are trumped by Torrent being more advanced....
Else the base contact Restriction must also be obeyed, because the Rule does not actually state any individual Restrictions which are ignored.

JinxDragon wrote:
The same place, by using Torrent as an alternative set of Rules when it comes to placing the Template:
As long as the narrow end is within 12 inches we have legally placed the Template by the Torrent Rules, any conflict created by the original placement Restrictions are trumped by Torrent being more advanced....
Else the base contact Restriction must also be obeyed, because the Rule does not actually state any individual Restrictions which are ignored.

There is nothing in the torrent rules that override the restriction about having to cover as many models as possible.

It doesn't address the Restrictions, including the Base of Firer Requirement, because it is a set of alternative instructions on how the Template is placed and those Restrictions are found in the original Instructions that we are no longer required to follow.
We can keep going around in circles but till you prove that an alternative set of instructions are still bound by the original instructions Restrictions then we will not come to a concession, and if you manage to prove such then Torrent useless as the Base of Firer Restriction comes into play as well.

JinxDragon wrote:
Being a set of alternative instructions, it wouldn't have to address any of the original Restrictions because it is not placed using the instructions those Restrictions exist within.

Except it does. From the rules for Torrent weapons in the main rulebook:

A weapon with this special rule (Torrent) is treated like any other Template weapon, but when firing it in the Shooting phase, place the template so the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end.

So you do indeed need to place it per the rules for Template weapons, with the sole exception listed.

I understand what you are trying to state, that the 'treat like other Template weapons' means to follow the original Restrictions but the very next word after that is... well... a but. The existence of that but informs us that the rest of the sentence contains alternative instructions that we follow instead of the original set of instructions. In this situation, it informs us to place the Template so the narrow end is within 12 inches of the Firing Model, so we place it using this alternative set of instructions instead of those found for default Template Weapons. After having so placed the Template the statement that it is treated like any other Template weapon would be vital to inform us how many Hits are generated and to grant Special Rules that Torrent Weapons have by default such as Ignore Cover.

So, once the Template is placed using the instructions provided by Torrent, then we treat it like any other Template weapon....

@FlingitNow:

If I had a flamer on a model and I want to shoot a squad but only one model in that squad is visible - the rest are blobbed together just out of sight behind a solid 6" high wall.

Would you be able to place the template over the blob with a normal Template weapon?

If we exchange the Template weapon with a Torrent weapon and everything else (models, distances etc.) remained the same, would this rule then change anything?

*Edit: Grammar.

Yes you can place the template over models out of LoS. Yes you can still do this with a torrent weapon.

@FlingitNow:

So no matter the terrain you would just put the template over it and count the models. As template weapons follow the normal rules when allocating wounds, would you agree that the models out of sight to the flamer model would still have to be in sight of other models in the unit doing the shooting to be able to be allocated wounds?

Yes as they use normal wound allocation those wounds get allocated to the nearest model in LoS however the template can be placed to get maximum hits straight over any terrain.

Would you say that it would be possible to get more hits with the template than the amount of models the unit can actually see? Lets say that the blob contains 9 models which are under the template but 3 of them can't be seen by any member of your unit - would you get 6 or 9 hits with the template weapon?

You would get 9 hits, but if you get 9 kills, you can only "remove" 6 models

Chaospling wrote:
Would you say that it would be possible to get more hits with the template than the amount of models the unit can actually see? Lets say that the blob contains 9 models which are under the template but 3 of them can't be seen by any member of your unit - would you get 6 or 9 hits with the template weapon?

You get 9 hits, but it is only possible to remove 6 models as casualties.

The number of hits generated by a unit shooting can of course exceed the number of models that can be remvoed. This isnt even unusual - fire 10 bolters from 11" at a unit where only 5 models can be seen....

The difference, though, is that the hits were caused by the template which were placed to get 9 hits because of 9 models but you can only wound 6 because you have only line of sight to 6 models. I guess it sort of is the same logic when a blast marker scatters and hits more models than you can actually see.

Though I would still not allow to place a template through/over objects when you can't see through at all because of the same logic with blast weapons. Yes blast markers can be placed out of sight but only through scatter and as template weapons don't scatter and don't have the Barrage rule I wouldn't allow it.

Huh?

Blast weapons have a specific allowance to wound models out of line of sight, and can be place over models out of LOS (as long as the hole is over model IN los), without scatter.

Chaospling wrote:
The difference, though, is that the hits were caused by the template which were placed to get 9 hits because of 9 models but you can only wound 6 because you have only line of sight to 6 models. I guess it sort of is the same logic when a blast marker scatters and hits more models than you can actually see.

Though I would still not allow to place a template through/over objects when you can't see through at all because of the same logic with blast weapons. Yes blast markers can be placed out of sight but only through scatter and as template weapons don't scatter and don't have the Barrage rule I wouldn't allow it.

As Nos says, those are two very different things.

A blast scatter can kill out of sight, but a template weapon cannot. Covering the maximum number of models IS a rule for templates however, and applies whether the whole unit is in LoS or not.