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So, I have a lot of Land Raiders right now, and occasionally lend them to other players for their games.

A friend borrowed 3 of them from me this weekend to use in a game at the FLGS. He came back around 3 hours later to return them. The game ended early, his opponent accused him of pivoting for advantage.

The way this works is, you have a Land Raider, you pivot on the spot and move forward. Measurement is done from the front of the model. Since the Land Raider is so long, you move forward about 2 inches more than you would if you were facing the original direction.

When his opponent noticed, he accused my friend of cheating and terminated the game. Then things got omega-level stupid. While packing up the army, his opponent started shouting at him to get out, saying he is the one who should be leaving because he was the one cheating. Then the opponent started shouting that he's friends with the guy who organizes NOVA and he's going to get him banned from every game on the East Coast. Then this spilled out into the parking lot, where this opponent kept yelling and making threats seriously enough that the people at the store next door called the cops. The police told him to leave, just in case that guy came back.

This made me think about the rules, how seriously some people take them, and how awful it is being locked in that hard on a game. I don't know what's worse, this guy's reaction or the fact he could come up with a name for cheating as inane as 'pivoting for advantage.' I can't imagine what the advantage is, since usually the point of moving a transport is to get troops up the board, and you can't do this and move in a straight line.

This reads like there is likely something that has gone on way before this particular game between these two individuals and the dispute on vehicle pivoting just brought it out. I could be wrong, but I've never encountered things getting this out of hand without something already existing between two people.

While this is sad to hear, I feel like we (maybe the OP too) aren't getting the whole story.

There is a GIANT thread going right now concerning the whole gaining an inch thing. and i can see how it is a touchy subject.

Last edition though everyone did it and was seen as a normal thing (though i feel its pretty beardy to see a bunch of tanks parked sideways just to get an inch.)

I too feel like id like to know what actually set off the guy as that kind of reaction isnt normal.

Edit: Though i get kinda pissy my self when people do try to take any sort of advantage of shotty anything or just in general

Such as various not cool base alterations, crazyness with necron chariot (unless all them crazyness got resolved (highly doubt it)) and some other stuff.

I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Its not a problem I have to deal with thankfully. But I can see both sides being a bit nuts in that situation. Unless they are like 9-12. The only time I have seen yelling over a game was when kids are involved.

Considering how pivoting is explained in the BRB, I don't see how your friend was cheating. If I'm not mistaken, it states pivoting does not take up any of your movement, and I don't think you need to have started moving in order to pivot. It's no different than pivoting in place to fire your weapon in the proper direction.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602413.page

This entire thing. 12 pages of what basically boils down to ONLY Pivoting on the spot counts as stationary, any other action should count towards total movement as well the any part of the base (hull) moving more than intended.

But take it to that thread.

I know both of the players involved. While there is some backstory between the two, it's pretty vanilla stuff. Both of them are pretty good guys, I never would have pictured something like this happening.

But you're right, there's probably a little more to the story. The point remains, we sometimes take rules way too seriously.

hang n im curious how do you score the extra inch?

if you move up from facing forwards, then turn sideways isnt you side then about an inch behind where the front was? cos you pivot right, then i spose if you move in the NOW forwards direction you score an inch, but if you were to return to going the same direction you have gained nothing. except maybe 1" more range on your opponents shooting.

wrapping my head around this here haha. might be having a stupid moment.

but yeah it seems very extreme like flip a table extreme. if someones cheating then well i wont play them, but the "ill get my big bad mate to do you in" screams of immaturity. let alone to the point the POLICE are involved. i can see their face. "we have a call out there is an argument over plastic figures going on need fast response" how does it even get that far?

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
hang n im curious how do you score the extra inch?

if you move up from facing forwards, then turn sideways isnt you side then about an inch behind where the front was? cos you pivot right, then i spose if you move in the NOW forwards direction you score an inch, but if you were to return to going the same direction you have gained nothing. except maybe 1" more range on your opponents shooting.

wrapping my head around this here haha. might be having a stupid moment.

but yeah it seems very extreme like flip a table extreme. if someones cheating then well i wont play them, but the "ill get my big bad mate to do you in" screams of immaturity. let alone to the point the POLICE are involved. i can see their face. "we have a call out there is an argument over plastic figures going on need fast response" how does it even get that far?

The general use of it is to deploy your vehicles sideways, right at the edge of your deployment zone, and on first turn pivoting and then moving forward. And while it is irrelevant for square shaped vehicles, it can give around 3-4 inches to rectangular vehicles, like some of the dark eldar and necron transports. And as someone who does this very thing almost every game those inches can actually make a world of difference, usually they don't though, especially in something like the maelstrom missions or trying to get things within range turn one.

Thanks for clearing that up... and ahhh what a move to make.
and so the abuse of the rules becomes obvious.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Exactly. This is the type of RIDICULOUS nonsense that makes this game so irritating. Not the game, the fricking people. What honest thinking person would move their tanks like that? Its completely absurd and it ruins the game to have people looking for EVERY opportunity to find loopholes and flaws in the rules that they can exploit to "win." Congratulations, you just won douche of the year award in my book. I would be seriously put off by a person playing that way.

One of my roomates in college is like this. We'd play darts or pool and he would ask EVERY turn "oh so I can do (insert illegal technique here)???" And we'd have to tell him no. Like, dude, use your head, stop asking for permission to cheat. At a certain point its like, just cheat so this game can end and I can never play with you again.

People need to have basic common decency to play a fair game of 40k. I don't care how bad the rules are. You have a responsibility to not play like a gakker.

If any part of the model moved more than 6 inches the move is illegal.

We hashed this out last week I thought.

....and the link is posted above.

jamesk1973 wrote:
If any part of the model moved more than 6 inches the move is illegal.

We hashed this out last week I thought.

when? and i agree its a douche move.
this isnt fantasy where you measure the entire movement, and the rulebook allows free pivoting of models. you can move pivot move more pivot again. unlike fantasy which is mesured from the outer edges when wheeling.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up... and ahhh what a move to make.
and so the abuse of the rules becomes obvious.

To be fair back in sixth edition it wasn't abuse of the rules, so much as taking advantage of game mechanics (which could be the same thing depending on how you are looking at it). With seventh and the updated wording it is now debatable though.

Its conceptually ridiculous regardless of what the rules say. "To be fair" LMAO.

Yes, to be fair indeed. I wonder how much more fun this game would be if people simply made an effort to play fairly. Before referencing a rulebook, they might stop and consider, well, what makes sense? Does it make any sense at all for tanks to pivot 90 degrees as they rush across a battlefield? Of course not. But wait, does the rule handle this absurd logistical fallacy? Oh, fancy that. No one anticipated my idiocy so I guess I'll just go ahead and do something ridiculous.

Honestly now.

VanHallan wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Exactly. This is the type of RIDICULOUS nonsense that makes this game so irritating.

Any rules that are so poorly written as to set some players against other players who are playing perfectly within the rules are trashy rules. Blame the game for having stupid rules, not the player for playing within the rules.

 Yonan wrote:

VanHallan wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Exactly. This is the type of RIDICULOUS nonsense that makes this game so irritating.

Any rules that are so poorly written as to set some players against other players who are playing perfectly within the rules are trashy rules. Blame the game for having stupid rules, not the player for playing within the rules.

Nope. Blame the player. Players have brains and choices. A crappy rule book does not. Im not saying the rules are perfect, but being normal and sensible fixes a lot more issues than doing things because you can. Its always the same types of players doing stupid things like this. I find it easier to blame them than go "oh well, the book doesnt say you cant, so do it besides the fact you know in that brain of yours you shouldnt". It is ultimately the players fault as they are the ones directly affecting me in the situation when they do not have to.

In my opinion players who do stuff like this ruin the game far more than the rules ever can. However if they find an opponent who enjoys doing it just like they do than thats fine and they can do it all the please. But I simply wont tolerate that kind of play style.

Thats my opinion though. Luckily tank pivoting types are rare and as a result these rule issues arent that big of a deal.

I will blame a person for not using reason and logic to solve problems. Always looking for someone else to tell them how to do something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
have an exalt

VanHallan wrote:
I will blame a person for not using reason and logic to solve problems.

But when you have rules that can be interpreted either way, you're getting upset because someone isn't putting your interpretation above theirs.

Just like the comment about the number of spells a psyker can cast being dependent on their mastery level with no mention of how it applies.

Yes, this thread has already derailed into the "Blame the Player" defense; the worst defense that allows people to justify their expensive rulebooks just because they work with their buds.

If I was going first, more so using Coteaz, I would always deploy my tanks sideways. It's part of the rules and I have never heard of it being in contention. I did it every game with my Sisters of Battle Dominions because that extra few inches could mean 6" melta range if you parked on the line or close to it. It's called tactics and it's a part of the rules. And it's not even the most broken thing in the world with it really applying to a few circumstances.

I've seen this done with bikes, tanks, wraithknights, etc. I can't believe it's just now becoming an "issue".

 TheKbob wrote:
Yes, this thread has already derailed into the "Blame the Player" defense; the worst defense that allows people to justify their expensive rulebooks just because they work with their buds.

Quite the opposite, actually. I've seen people say "If I'm going to spend __ on a rulebook, the rules better be well written." I just simply think people should use common sense. Yes, I know this is an archaic idea, and we live in a society where common sense is as common as a silver dime, but we can strive for it can we not?

I don't have a problem with someone deploying sideways to get an extra inch or two on the FIRST turn, and if that's all we're talking about I apologize. In my mind, we're talking about someone doing this EVERY TURN. So I move my bike up, finish the move sideways, then straighten out for the movement next turn and so on and so forth. That is an absurd concept for what is purportedly going on in a 40k game. Just because you "can" doesn't make it justifiable.

In life, people "can" do a lot of things. A sense of basic decency and trust keeps them from doing everything they feasibly could do. I would hope in the far future fictional universe its the same. But it really isnt when you play and talk with 40k players. Very annoying.

VanHallan wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Yes, this thread has already derailed into the "Blame the Player" defense; the worst defense that allows people to justify their expensive rulebooks just because they work with their buds.

Quite the opposite, actually. I've seen people say "If I'm going to spend __ on a rulebook, the rules better be well written." I just simply think people should use common sense. Yes, I know this is an archaic idea, and we live in a society where common sense is as common as a silver dime, but we can strive for it can we not?

I don't have a problem with someone deploying sideways to get an extra inch or two on the FIRST turn, and if that's all we're talking about I apologize. In my mind, we're talking about someone doing this EVERY TURN. So I move my bike up, finish the move sideways, then straighten out for the movement next turn and so on and so forth. That is an absurd concept for what is purportedly going on in a 40k game. Just because you "can" doesn't make it justifiable.

In life, people "can" do a lot of things. A sense of basic decency and trust keeps them from doing everything they feasibly could do. I would hope in the far future fictional universe its the same. But it really isnt when you play and talk with 40k players. Very annoying.

Common sense is that I can deploy my vehicles as I wish in my deployment zone. Same with bikes or oval based creatures. Facing, outside of vehicles, is not covered in Warhammer 40k unlike pretty much every other game out there. After the first turn it doesn't matter as you can pivot any model during any part of the movement (and there's hissy fits on YMDC over that, too, now!).

I'm sorry if you cannot see the breakdown of a skirmish game grown too large into some sort of battle game or Epic a la 28mm. In the context of wargaming, the 40k rules are terrible even without comparison because "common sense" cannot be applied unless you're truly one of the game designers. They write with such flimsy language that it makes for all logical breakdown and gives multiple valid lexical interpretations.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Its not a problem I have to deal with thankfully. But I can see both sides being a bit nuts in that situation. Unless they are like 9-12. The only time I have seen yelling over a game was when kids are involved.

I'm confused and maybe you can clear this up for me. You're mad at the player pivoting? I'm a fairly new player, so forgive me for asking, but how would you turn if you wanted to go 90 degrees? would youj go forward and then turn then forward to reach the same point (in an L shape) or would you move the side the full 12", then turn so the front is at the 12"?

It''s unfortunate that this is seriously an issue, as I feel like this is something I would/might do, not out of cheating or malice, but more out of ignorance.

common sense can be applied by anybody who wishes to use it. To act otherwise is immature at worst and at best extremely opportunistic. There is a semi clear picture of what is going on in a war game. The idea that a vehicle would turn in a direction contrary to its direction movement is pretty dumb. You can rationalize it and blame anything you want. Stupid is as stupid does and as I like to say, play dumb games, win dumb prizes. I wouldn't play regularly with people who go out of their way to act illogically in order to "win" what amounts to...........nothing!

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Its not a problem I have to deal with thankfully. But I can see both sides being a bit nuts in that situation. Unless they are like 9-12. The only time I have seen yelling over a game was when kids are involved.

I'm confused and maybe you can clear this up for me. You're mad at the player pivoting? I'm a fairly new player, so forgive me for asking, but how would you turn if you wanted to go 90 degrees? would youj go forward and then turn then forward to reach the same point (in an L shape) or would you move the side the full 12", then turn so the front is at the 12"?

It''s unfortunate that this is seriously an issue, as I feel like this is something I would/might do, not out of cheating or malice, but more out of ignorance.

It's based solely on the deployment and turn one. You place a vehicle or long based model horizontal against the edge of your deployment zone and then pivot on the spot, for free, at the start of turn one to gain extra distance.

It's completely legal in the rules, so don't worry. If someone cannot see what you're doing and compensate for it, then they are pretty bad at tactical decisions. This isn't an issue of a "WAAC" army list of rerollable 2++ saves steamrolling your fluff ball army. This is a basic mechanic that's been in the game for an extremely long time that seems to have people getting cranky right now. I've been utilizing this concept since 5E.

Nothing in the rules stops this. You could deploy all rear armor to your enemy and choose to go second if you really wanted to, which is the exact opposite of this strategy as you're basically giving up points and distance! But no one is getting mad over this equally valid deployment strategy.

^^^That I don't have a problem with, so I apologize for misinterpreting.

VanHallan wrote:
common sense can be applied by anybody who wishes to use it. To act otherwise is immature at worst and at best extremely opportunistic. There is a semi clear picture of what is going on in a war game. The idea that a vehicle would turn in a direction contrary to its direction movement is pretty dumb. You can rationalize it and blame anything you want. Stupid is as stupid does and as I like to say, play dumb games, win dumb prizes. I wouldn't play regularly with people who go out of their way to act illogically in order to "win" what amounts to...........nothing!

War games use abstractions to make a game just that... a game. If you want real simulation, you should try table top hobbies aimed at simulation.

It's not "common sense". It's the damned rules of the game and blaming the players is exactly the issue with the Games Workshop community and why the game is going down the toilet. Instead of banding together and getting people on board to fix the issues, they'd rather in-fight and say "it works for me!" as they trot along with $150 rules to play a game.

That sounds more like a lack of "common sense" than pivoting vehicles turn one.

 jreilly89 wrote:


I'm confused and maybe you can clear this up for me. You're mad at the player pivoting? I'm a fairly new player, so forgive me for asking, but how would you turn if you wanted to go 90 degrees? would youj go forward and then turn then forward to reach the same point (in an L shape) or would you move the side the full 12", then turn so the front is at the 12"?

It''s unfortunate that this is seriously an issue, as I feel like this is something I would/might do, not out of cheating or malice, but more out of ignorance.

You'd be hard pressed to do it accidentally. See, you rotate models around the center point. So if you have a model that is shapped like XXXXX and you move it six inches sideways, that's six inches. Pivot before your next movement, or even after that move, and you're a couple bits closer because measurement is taken from the leading bit of the hull.


X
X
X has been rotated around the center point when it started off like XXXXX.
X
X

Same number of Xs, rotated around the center X in a pivot. But honestly, I don't play so precisely that I would care. Yes, please, come closer, that way I can hit you sooner in assault. My Carnifex loves that sort of thing.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


I'm confused and maybe you can clear this up for me. You're mad at the player pivoting? I'm a fairly new player, so forgive me for asking, but how would you turn if you wanted to go 90 degrees? would youj go forward and then turn then forward to reach the same point (in an L shape) or would you move the side the full 12", then turn so the front is at the 12"?

It''s unfortunate that this is seriously an issue, as I feel like this is something I would/might do, not out of cheating or malice, but more out of ignorance.

You'd be hard pressed to do it accidentally. See, you rotate models around the center point. So if you have a model that is shapped like XXXXX and you move it six inches sideways, that's six inches. Pivot before your next movement, or even after that move, and you're a couple bits closer because measurement is taken from the leading bit of the hull.


X
X
X has been rotated around the center point when it started off like XXXXX.
X
X

Same number of Xs, rotated around the center X in a pivot. But honestly, I don't play so precisely that I would care. Yes, please, come closer, that way I can hit you sooner in assault. My Carnifex loves that sort of thing.

See, this makes a lot of sense, thank you. I guess I understand for weapon/assault purposes why its measure from the front of the hull, but in my mind it makes more sense to measure distance from the mid-point of the model. Yes, I think there would still be issues, but at least the long edges would be better accounted for. Idk, gak like this drives me nuts, and I don't see my local guys flipping out about it, but I would be terrified of running into that one guy who has every rule down to the page and paragraph number.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I personally would not play someone who does stuff like that. While its technically legal it says a lot about the person using them. What else are they willing to do for just a few inches?

Its not a problem I have to deal with thankfully. But I can see both sides being a bit nuts in that situation. Unless they are like 9-12. The only time I have seen yelling over a game was when kids are involved.

I'm confused and maybe you can clear this up for me. You're mad at the player pivoting? I'm a fairly new player, so forgive me for asking, but how would you turn if you wanted to go 90 degrees? would youj go forward and then turn then forward to reach the same point (in an L shape) or would you move the side the full 12", then turn so the front is at the 12"?

It''s unfortunate that this is seriously an issue, as I feel like this is something I would/might do, not out of cheating or malice, but more out of ignorance.

It's based solely on the deployment and turn one. You place a vehicle or long based model horizontal against the edge of your deployment zone and then pivot on the spot, for free, at the start of turn one to gain extra distance.

It's completely legal in the rules, so don't worry. If someone cannot see what you're doing and compensate for it, then they are pretty bad at tactical decisions. This isn't an issue of a "WAAC" army list of rerollable 2++ saves steamrolling your fluff ball army. This is a basic mechanic that's been in the game for an extremely long time that seems to have people getting cranky right now. I've been utilizing this concept since 5E.

Nothing in the rules stops this. You could deploy all rear armor to your enemy and choose to go second if you really wanted to, which is the exact opposite of this strategy as you're basically giving up points and distance! But no one is getting mad over this equally valid deployment strategy.

Awesome! Thank you for the help I love playing 40k, it's just certain situations like this seem to upset so many people and I'd rather lose or not play than get in a screaming match over a couple of inches. I'm not gonna point my rear armor at you, but if you want my landraider to be a couple inches back? Fine.