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BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The ending genuinely looked like a case of the newbie following the employee handbook and getting his boss fired so he could look good.

sure except continueing the analogy, the new employee had solid evidance to susp[ect his boss was embezzling.

That is very true. But in that situation, what a good friend and brother should have done was weigh up the evidence and given him benefit of the doubt. He then should have approached Titus and said "Captain, that was well fought but I think the Inquisition should be notified of your ability..." If Titus refused, Heretic. If he agreed, well, all is sorted out.
Rather, he went behind the Captain's back and called the Inquisition.

To continue the analogy, Leandros would have approached the boss and said "I know what you're doing, stop it or I'll call the cops." Instead of "He did it he did it *smugface*"

except Leandros DID bring it up with Titus, Titus basicly just dismissed it as "I have no idea whats up with this but it's not important, let's just move on"

I meant that he should have waited until the crisis was over. There was more pressing issues at that moment...namely an Ork Waaagh!, a Chaos Warp Rift flooding the place with Chaos Marines, a Terminator Lord about to become a Daemon Prince and Chaos Daemons.

 Deadshot wrote:
I get that UM are the "by the book" guys...but don't forget that Guilliman was by no means the nerd with a stick up his backside. He may come across like that sometimes but he was indeed a tactical genius, and would have undoubtedly known that such narrow thinking as Leandros and his ill did, to follow the Codex by the letter would be folly. Hell, Alpharius, a Primarch, made that mistake. He believed that Guilliman would never stray from his plans and convential tactics, and that his Alpha Legion's exotic attack patterns would beat the XIIIth no question. To an extent he was right, his tactics would have beaten Guilliman's usual stuff, but Guilliman himself took a tactic he would never otherwise use and not only beat the XXth, but possibly killed Alpharius or Omegon, or both.

So its entirely possible that the Codex has a disclaimer from the big RG saying "These aren't rules, only suggestions."
.

It is a matter of pride for the Ultramarines to hold to the rules of the codex to the end. It took the tryrranic war for Marneus Calgar to do tactics that were not in the codex. You have to remember that it comes from their legion, and as such they uphold it to show that it is indeed still a viable source when you look for guidance in strategy and such. Now RG knew that the tactics in the codex won't always work, which is why he allowed it to be ignored if the situation is acceptable. But from the Ultramarine that standpoint that is almost never the case, as their Primarch was perfect.

willhman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I get that UM are the "by the book" guys...but don't forget that Guilliman was by no means the nerd with a stick up his backside. He may come across like that sometimes but he was indeed a tactical genius, and would have undoubtedly known that such narrow thinking as Leandros and his ill did, to follow the Codex by the letter would be folly. Hell, Alpharius, a Primarch, made that mistake. He believed that Guilliman would never stray from his plans and convential tactics, and that his Alpha Legion's exotic attack patterns would beat the XIIIth no question. To an extent he was right, his tactics would have beaten Guilliman's usual stuff, but Guilliman himself took a tactic he would never otherwise use and not only beat the XXth, but possibly killed Alpharius or Omegon, or both.

So its entirely possible that the Codex has a disclaimer from the big RG saying "These aren't rules, only suggestions."
.

It is a matter of pride for the Ultramarines to hold to the rules of the codex to the end. It took the tryrranic war for Marneus Calgar to do tactics that were not in the codex. You have to remember that it comes from their legion, and as such they uphold it to show that it is indeed still a viable source when you look for guidance in strategy and such. Now RG knew that the tactics in the codex won't always work, which is why he allowed it to be ignored if the situation is acceptable. But from the Ultramarine that standpoint that is almost never the case, as their Primarch was perfect.

Yeah 'perfect'.

ultras got all the cool stuff.

 Asherian Command wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I get that UM are the "by the book" guys...but don't forget that Guilliman was by no means the nerd with a stick up his backside. He may come across like that sometimes but he was indeed a tactical genius, and would have undoubtedly known that such narrow thinking as Leandros and his ill did, to follow the Codex by the letter would be folly. Hell, Alpharius, a Primarch, made that mistake. He believed that Guilliman would never stray from his plans and convential tactics, and that his Alpha Legion's exotic attack patterns would beat the XIIIth no question. To an extent he was right, his tactics would have beaten Guilliman's usual stuff, but Guilliman himself took a tactic he would never otherwise use and not only beat the XXth, but possibly killed Alpharius or Omegon, or both.

So its entirely possible that the Codex has a disclaimer from the big RG saying "These aren't rules, only suggestions."
.

It is a matter of pride for the Ultramarines to hold to the rules of the codex to the end. It took the tryrranic war for Marneus Calgar to do tactics that were not in the codex. You have to remember that it comes from their legion, and as such they uphold it to show that it is indeed still a viable source when you look for guidance in strategy and such. Now RG knew that the tactics in the codex won't always work, which is why he allowed it to be ignored if the situation is acceptable. But from the Ultramarine that standpoint that is almost never the case, as their Primarch was perfect.

Yeah 'perfect'.

ultras got all the cool stuff.

Oops forgot to put down the quotation marks around that my bad.

 Deadshot wrote:
I get that UM are the "by the book" guys...but don't forget that Guilliman was by no means the nerd with a stick up his backside. He may come across like that sometimes but he was indeed a tactical genius, and would have undoubtedly known that such narrow thinking as Leandros and his ill did, to follow the Codex by the letter would be folly.

This, to me, is why I find the Ultramarines to be less of the 'perfect heroes' and instead one of the most tragically flawed chapters (And I saw this as an Ultramarine fan and player). The thing with them is, when the enemy play by the rules and they can plan something as per the codex, they are all but unbeatable, paragons of the arts of war. But if things start to go wrong, it's that same rigid adherence that can doom them.

The irony is that Gulliman recognised this, at least after the Heresy where he had been caught unaware by his brothers turning on him (a case of 'not playing by the rules'). One of the reasons the Ultramarines took at Calth is because they hadn't even entertained the possibility of Marines turning on Marines, so having come through that and survived, Gulliman of course would advocate a greater degree of tactical flexibility so as not to be caught unaware.

However, by the time of Ventris/Titus et al, Gulliman is long dead, his words of advice have become doctrine, his suggestions dogma. They follow his word to the letter no matter where it takes them, and when the circumstances aren't covered by the Codex Astartes, they deal in absolutes, as Leandros does. Gulliman would of course think Leandros was being too extreme, underhand and forceful, but Leandros is just doing what he things Gulliman would have wanted.

And all this is why I think Ultramarines are far more flawed than many make out, and more flawed than most other Chapters. The Wolves are 'flawed' in the eyes of the Imperium because of their loose organisation and their genetic deviancy, which only serves to make them stronger. The Dark Angels are 'flawed' with their secrets, but this can make them fight all the harder. The Imperial Fists are 'flawed' with their stubbornness that has, on occasion, salvaged near-untenable situation.

But the Ultramarines, those who prize themselves as the most dedicated adherents to the Codex, are maybe the furthest from it. Outside of a few individuals, they lack the flexibility and instinct to react to the unknown and unprecedented. They lack the imagination to determine the lesser of evils from the greater, as seen in the case of Titus. They are tragic heroes, so far fallen from their mighty origins and kept afloat only because, in a world where dogma outstrips logic, they are the most dogmatic in following the teachings. To any outside perspective, the Ultramarines are flawed, and instead of it being some past transgression or genetic fault, it is a flaw and a danger of their own making.