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Trigger warning: Negativity, "anti-GW" sentiment.

 amhhs wrote:
My friends told me today that If I start playing again (id pick eldar) I would find myself "without people to play with"... They can't be that bad.... especially since my friends all play either necrons or tau. Wish someone could talk sense into them...

And yet people still see nothing wrong with 40k's lack of balance.

I personally don't see how this kind of crap could possibly be good for either the long-term health of 40k or GW in general. GW doesn't make money when people are talked or peer-pressured out of buying into it, which leads to higher prices and all the other things we've been bitching about for years, and we as a community suffer because the pool of players is ever decreasing, which means fewer opportunities to actually get games in (and in some cases maybe even game stores going out of business, the few who still rely on GW sales to keep going anyway). Some people argue that better balance would be "boring" and would somehow ruin the game, but I'd argue not getting to play the game at all, either because you picked an army that ended up being OP as feth 8 years down the road, or everyone else picked an OP army (whether intentionally or not) and you've shunned them for it, would be even more boring. I can't help but feel like I'm alone in thinking that way, though.

Do you guys really think it's okay for Eldar to just be "off limits" to new players, and for existing players to shelve their armies until a new edition or codex update "nerfs" them? Do you care if people decide to skip out on 40k altogether because everyone told them they wouldn't play with them if they picked the faction they wanted, which for the vast majority of us is a decision based purely on aesthetics with little to no knowledge of how they play on the tabletop, or even more than a blurb or two of fluff? A decision, mind you, which doesn't seem to be an issue AT ALL in ANY other game BUT 40k? Because personally I think this is all fething absurd and I don't think of it as anything less than straight-up bullying. From grown-ass people, no doubt.

 ionusx wrote:
i think that if GW want to continue with the eldar as a race they need to radically rethink their approach to the book, or kill it outright. thats right no more eldar codex i said it.

I guess my question was answered long before I even finished my post.

Wow.

2x10man Spears.... 500pts
2xJetSeers.............. 230pts
Min Troops.............. 101pts

That leaves 169 points for upgrades or everything else. That means at most 1 Serpent.

Spears have a maximum 18" threat range t1 (6" shooting, can't battle focus), but can flat out to basically anywhere.

2xFortune has, at best, a 1/4 chance of being available. That was just bad luck. But unless he tried for being absurdly lucky, you didn't need to worry about invis, as he didn't roll on Telepathy at all.

Fortuned Spears are t4 3+ sv, 3+ cover while jinking. That save 8 of 9 shots. That is kinda scary. Usually I'd say hit the rest of the army and endure it, but with 10 SS, that's going to be one non-CC-monster unit a turn. If you did have the Ignore Cover option, you'd be able to deny him any saves from any ap3 weapons (and anything s6+ on the Seer may only wound 1/4 times, but IDs the Seer).

Spread out so he can't always charge the next best target every round? It'll take a lot of firepower, but if you can Weight of Fire termis down, this is only half again as much. And it can't really do anything the turn it moves into range of your guns, so you're guaranteed first shot if you play it right.

I've never enjoyed playing with/against death stars from any army, but this really doesn't sound any worse than a gravstar or other things many other codexes put out.

How is this worse than the helldrakes destroying my demicompany in the first half of 6th, and laughing at anything the Marines could put out?

Serpent Spam backed by Wraithkights is unfun, certainly, but not all of Eldar is.

(Also, Eldar weren't cheese for over half of 6th - their old codex wasn't a problem)

This thread is hilarious.

T4 3+ re-rollable is FAR from the unstoppable behemoth the OP thinks it is. If two units are killing your entire army you've done something terribly wrong.

Yes, I play Eldar. (see my sig)

Eldarplayer wrote:
What was the eldar list he brought, I am curious what else he had. At first look shining spears didn't look great but I need to rethink.

By the way, this was a campaign game. We deployed around three central objectives, they deployed within 6" of any table edge.

I don't have his exact list, but roughly (if shining spears don't have battle focus, he was moving them in the assault phase somehow without doing hit and run):

- Lvl 3 Farseer with 10 shining spears (with exarch)
- Lvl 3 Farseer with 10 shining spears (with exarch)
- Two guardian bike squads with ~6 guardians in each.


Tau had the following, but like I said he was completely a nonfactor:
- Shadowsun + 1 crisis suit
- Crisis suits (3)
- Pathfinders
- Firewarriors
- Devilfish
- Hammerhead
- Kroot


My list:

Vanquisher (Tank Commander)
- Lascannon
- Multimeltas

Buddy Eradicator
- Lascannon
- Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Primaris lvl 1 - Biomancy

Primaris lvl 1 - Prescience

PCS
- Autocannon
- Snipers (2)
- Bolter

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Conscripts (20)
- Commissar

Veterans
- Camo/snare mines
- Grenade Launchers (3)
- Autocannon

Wyvern


My ally's list (I don't have all his wargear):

CCS

PCS

Blob squad (20)
- Flamers

Guardsmen
- Chimera

Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannons)

Conscripts (20)
- Commissar

Valkyrie
- Rocket Pods

Leman Russ Battle Tank

So tank-heavy, and he happened to not invest in units that can't hurt tanks?

That conscript squad should cost his Spears at least a turn.

And if you ever charged (or held) the Spears they'd have been s3 ap- 1 attack each.

This looks like he just rolled well, IMO.

Bharring wrote:
So tank-heavy, and he happened to not invest in units that can't hurt tanks?

That conscript squad should cost his Spears at least a turn.

And if you ever charged (or held) the Spears they'd have been s3 ap- 1 attack each.

This looks like he just rolled well, IMO.

He has hit and run at initiative 6. Twin-linked overwatch with shuriken catapults and he will successfully disengage at the end of the first assault phase on a d6 1-5. I know, because I tried that strategy the last time I played against him, it didn't work. He overwatches, strikes first, and only 1/54 of my attacks is going through, and I have a lot fewer attacks once he's done. Then he hits and runs to shoot and assault on the next turn. If I'm not mistaken his power lances are always at least Ap 4.

You are mistaken. If they don't charge the lances are S3 AP-.

 TheSilo wrote:

Eldarplayer wrote:
What was the eldar list he brought, I am curious what else he had. At first look shining spears didn't look great but I need to rethink.

By the way, this was a campaign game. We deployed around three central objectives, they deployed within 6" of any table edge.

I don't have his exact list, but roughly (if shining spears don't have battle focus, he was moving them in the assault phase somehow without doing hit and run):

- Lvl 3 Farseer with 10 shining spears (with exarch)
- Lvl 3 Farseer with 10 shining spears (with exarch)
- Two guardian bike squads with ~6 guardians in each.


Tau had the following, but like I said he was completely a nonfactor:
- Shadowsun + 1 crisis suit
- Crisis suits (3)
- Pathfinders
- Firewarriors
- Devilfish
- Hammerhead
- Kroot


My list:

Vanquisher (Tank Commander)
- Lascannon
- Multimeltas

Buddy Eradicator
- Lascannon
- Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Primaris lvl 1 - Biomancy

Primaris lvl 1 - Prescience

PCS
- Autocannon
- Snipers (2)
- Bolter

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Conscripts (20)
- Commissar

Veterans
- Camo/snare mines
- Grenade Launchers (3)
- Autocannon

Wyvern


My ally's list (I don't have all his wargear):

CCS

PCS

Blob squad (20)
- Flamers

Guardsmen
- Chimera

Heavy Weapons Squad (Lascannons)

Conscripts (20)
- Commissar

Valkyrie
- Rocket Pods

Leman Russ Battle Tank

The problem here is that the Eldar list is attempting to be heavily competitive and both of your lists would be generously called "mediocre". Your heavy firepower is pretty naff, you're trying to pile on non AP2/3 wounds but doing it extremely inefficiently.

Take an Executioner/Punisher or two, and see how long those Shining Spears last over continuous fire, especially with Pask in there.

Scrap the Conscripts/naff blobs and reassemble them into strong blobs of minimum 30, no waste-of-points mortars or GL's, at most with flamers and autocannons/lascannon teams. Scrap all the Chimera squads and either assemble them into blobs or make them Vet Mechanised squads and give them max high-end specials. Ditch the Valkyrie if its only going to be for fire support, or take a Veteran Squad with the demolitions doctrine and high end specials maxed out in it so it can alpha strike.

So many complainers in this 1 little thread.

To be honest, when I see an Eldar player sinking points in shining spears I am happy. They are one of the worst units in the codex and only an inexperienced player will have any issues against them.

Now you did have extreme bad luck that he rolled Fortune on both his Farseers, but even then they are not that scary. Still surprising he got off all his Fortunes as statistically he should fail it a couple of times.

Still, at most his units can kill of 1 unit per turn so he will be hard pressed to kill much.
Also since they don't have grenades any unit in cover will hit them first in close combat.

I think the major problem is the Eldar player came prepared with a decent list and he played against the OP which is at best a poorly designed list.

They are jetbikes with H&R vs guardsmen. They should ALWAYS.be doing the charging. And there is a reason I sold my Eldar after 3 games. I started eldar in 6th because I liked the aesthetics of grav tanks and vypers. That turned out to be a very expensive mistake for someone.who gets a dirty feeling for bringing too much grav against CSM or Nidzilla in friendly games.

''So many complainers?''

Did it occur to you that if enough people are complaining then there might actually be something wrong? Now that Eldar list wasn't even that nasty, it seemed fun to play with and like the Eldar player was having a Yolo moment. Ask yourself, if those Shining Spears didn't get fortune either through him failing it or not rolling it, do you think they'd of survived even a single turn of being the target of the entire Guard Gunline? No, because they are as tough to kill as a Marin to anything >AP3.

I'd say the OP's game was dictated by lucky powers and if he didn't get those powers the game would of been much funner. On the other hand, i straight up refuse to play anyone who uses more then 2 Wave Serpents. I play Dark Eldar, they ruin the game for me, no matter how many points we play...

Seriously?

Eldar broken and unbeatable?

I slaughter Eldar every time I face them. Now, that may be because the only guy I know who plays Eldar is truly terrible at this game, but still.

Honestly guard can easily give eldar a run for their money ,cover ignoring orders help bring down things like wave serpents and shining spears (which to be honest aren't the scariest unit in the eldar codex by far). Your wyverns slaughter eldar infantry and your leman russ are very good units , i think guard have the least to complain about.

Their are a few armies that eldar are broken against but its definitely not guard an army like dark eldar struggles to bring down our wave serpents due to nerfs to dark lances while the eldar can easily glance the av 10 dark eldar skimmers to death.

You know I am going to be the counter to all of the, "Suck it up" type post.

I had a 5k Eldar army once upon a time that I got from a friend who was getting out of the game, I could field a LOT of different armies including Wave Serpent spam. When 6th rolled around I finally pulled the army out of storage, fixed it up, and ran a couple of games and theory crafted a number of list.

Eldar ARE the anti-fun of this game. Eldar have no weaknesses like most armies, they can counter ANYTHING, they do not have a single unit that I would consider useless like so many codices, they can abuse most any mechanic the game has short of flier spam, they can do everything without sacrificing. Not ONLY that but even on a casual level just building a fluff list it will work extremely well and if you are a competent Eldar player you can win against other armies competitive list with it. My favorite build for 6th was using nothing but moral based attacks from Farseers, Hemlocks, to Nightspinners and Vauls Support Batteries. Even if I were playing against Space Marines with their ATSKNF I could still obliterate them with the amount of shooting the list was putting out.

Eldar are not impossible to beat, but they are not fun to play against. I found them so over bearing that I sold the army for the most part because I got bored of playing them and people in my group stopped wanting to play against me when I brought them. Eldar dominate the tournament scene for a reason and even at their worse they are on par with some armies best.

Unbeatable? Don't recall anyone saying that. I've had some good games against my buddys Iyanden list. Its just when someone drops serpents, bikes, knights and prisms like they're going out of style that games truly become a waste of time. The fact that even a foot guardian list will be hitting you with more BS4 rending dice than you can count is a perfect example of why Phil Kelly should NEVER be allowed to write another eldar dex.

The fact that this thread exists because someone brought a bad eldar list against a fluffy.IG list, and the AM dex is one of the most potent books to drop in 6th.

I think anyone who says Eldar are never fun to play with should play with different people.

The army doesn't automatically remove fun from the game. The player making unfair lists does.
It would be better if the game didn't allow for this but the fact someone uses Eldar doesn't automatically mean all fun is gone.

Sorry if the post gets a bit jumbled.

DutchSage wrote:
So many complainers in this 1 little thread.

To be honest, when I see an Eldar player sinking points in shining spears I am happy. They are one of the worst units in the codex and only an inexperienced player will have any issues against them.

Now you did have extreme bad luck that he rolled Fortune on both his Farseers, but even then they are not that scary. Still surprising he got off all his Fortunes as statistically he should fail it a couple of times.

Still, at most his units can kill of 1 unit per turn so he will be hard pressed to kill much.
Also since they don't have grenades any unit in cover will hit them first in close combat.

I think the major problem is the Eldar player came prepared with a decent list and he played against the OP which is at best a poorly designed list.

Yes, clearly it was my inexperience (having only played since 3rd edition) and my ally's (having played since 5th edition). In the previous game I allied with the guy hosting (who has played since 2nd edition). So clearly it was just our stupidity and inexperience.

Alone, I had over 50 infantrymen on the board with 1,000 points. Pask and his buddies would have been dead on turn 2, just like my tank commander. And all of these recommendations rely on me having a CCS that makes it past turn 1. My teammate had a CCS issuing ignore cover, but with shining spears basically ignoring all movement restrictions, he only ever got a couple plasma shots off. In order to dispel fortune, I need to on average throw 12 dispel dice at that single spell. The most my army could ever physically get was 8.

His 1,000 point list all but tabled our combined 2,000 points. And all of this is missing the main point of the thread, that playing against Eldar is not fun. I'm not about to build a 100-man list in 1,000 points to win a campaign mission. I have not lost a game in the past four months, unless I was playing against Tau or Eldar. That includes beating IG, Chaos, Demons, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids. Part of that is because IG is such a strong codex, part is because I don't play win-at-all-costs people. I've lined up well against Tau, and the games are never slam-dunks (unless they're allied with Eldar), so I feel like I can actually eventually beat Tau. I have never, in any of my games, felt like I could actually beat Eldar, none of those games were even close. Again, they are one of only two armies I've lost to (against multiple players) and I always lose to the Eldar by a mile.

Eldar have every strength in the game and almost no negative downside. They are ridiculously points efficient, super fast, can gunline like no tomorrow with incredible range, and still effectively fight in your face.

Compare a space marine assault marine (17pts/per) to an eldar jetbike (17pts/per). A dude with a pistol and 12" move, 12" charge, T4, 3 Attacks on the charge vs. a dude on a bike with up to 50"+ movement a turn, twinlinked "pistol" (only 12" range) with pseudo-rending, 2 attacks on the charge, same toughness and armor. Let's not forget the "always-on if chosen to be" cover save versus the marine who has to risk life and limb to get his or sacrifice movement.

Eldar are really, really good. In the hands of a good player, they may approach unbeatable status determining on what you field against them. As I said, I had a full 2000pt Eldar army ready to play (only 2 Wave Serpents in the list...) and I already knew I'd get to play it only a handful of times before my peers said "No thanks..." Because that's a good use of my money. If the game gets fixed, I'll repurchase said Eldar, but until then, I guess I have to go elsewhere for my pointy eared fix.

The 50" movement isn't a thing anymore is it? I thought the rule changed so they got to move 36 in the shooting phase or 2d6 in the assault.

I don't play Eldar but I personally like the codex I just think it's open to abuse and the majority of eldar players I face a use the hell out of it.

One guy I face quite regularly runs Eldrad at 900pts, I mean c'mon not only is the guy seriously OP anyway but there is no way I can mount a decent pyschic defence or offence with him running round at low point levels.

In a doubles game I played Eldar/Eldar vs Space Marine/Blood Angels they had 13 psychic levels! 13! No one should be able to mount that kind of offensive without having to sacrifice on units which they don't.

I do enjoy playing against them and it is a challenge but somebody was definitely wanting to return them back to their 2nd edition glory when they wrote this.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Did it occur to you that if enough people are complaining then there might actually be something wrong?

No, and neither should you.

Sidstyler wrote:And yet people still see nothing wrong with 40k's lack of balance.

I personally don't see how this kind of crap could possibly be good for either the long-term health of 40k or GW in general.

It's what makes 40k 40k. The game would much more quickly wither away if it tried to be something it wasn't.

Arbiter_Shade wrote: Eldar have no weaknesses like most armies, they can counter ANYTHING, they do not have a single unit that I would consider useless like so many codices, they can abuse most any mechanic the game has short of flier spam, they can do everything without sacrificing.

I would like to hear absolutely any justification for these statements.

When I look at an army filled with expensive T3 units with bad armor saves and only a few units that approach real versatility that doesn't have access to several special rules, none of what you said makes sense to me.

ionusx wrote:if GW kills the eldar codex or nerfs it into the ground with massive points hikes.

Like they did at the end of 4th edition? The (somewhat justifiable) rage still leaves a ringing in my ears louder than tau before their current codex, blood angels now, or any whining that's ever happened about tyranid.

Everything got a huge price hike for getting zero amount more effective, but eldar was still broken cheese all through 5th edition? What, do you want to make everything twice as expensive?

Decisions on game balance shouldn't be made in anger.

TheSilo wrote:My list:

Vanquisher (Tank Commander)
- Lascannon
- Multimeltas

Buddy Eradicator
- Lascannon
- Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Primaris lvl 1 - Biomancy

Primaris lvl 1 - Prescience

PCS
- Autocannon
- Snipers (2)
- Bolter

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Guardsmen
- Grenade Launcher
- Mortar
- Chimera with heavy stubber

Conscripts (20)
- Commissar

Veterans
- Camo/snare mines
- Grenade Launchers (3)
- Autocannon

Wyvern

Yeah, your opponent brought a tight list with a single focus and has the ability to reasonably handle everything with plenty of killing power. You brought a bunch of grenade launchers and autocannons. There are 4 BS3 weapons with Ap2 or better, and you don't really have any weight of fire with a combination of only a few infantry squads that you then hide in transports. A few common-sense changes would turn your situation around greatly.

I also wonder what you're doing with deployment and movement. My guess is that if you have a list like this, you're pretty new at the game, which means you're also making a bunch of easily-fixable mistakes on the table as well, but we'd need to see some pictures in a battle report to know for sure.

40k is a game with a steep learning curve, I'll easily admit, but you'll probably be better off here (as with everything else in life), if you step up and meet your challenges with effective behavior changes rather than sitting down, whining, and blaming everybody else for your situation.

pm713 wrote:
The 50" movement isn't a thing anymore is it? I thought the rule changed so they got to move 36 in the shooting phase or 2d6 in the assault.

That very well could be, I am operating off 6E and the minimal 7E I've skimmed. That would still be 48" movement in one turn. The length of 50" is worst case scenario previously of only rolling snake eyes. The point still stands that you can place objective secured troops anywhere on the board turn one to completely cycle out your hand for something like Maelstrom. Otherwise, you hide them in reserve until 4th turn and do late game steals. Either still works in that scenario. And for 51 points, it's pretty broken.

Unless you put your objective secured troop on the objective or shoot the jetbikes.
They're good at that one thing but thats it.

pm713 wrote:
Unless you put your objective secured troop on the objective or shoot the jetbikes.
They're good at that one thing but thats it.

Yes, but you're going to have to put fire power on them to do so, thus taking away shots from killing the other stuff that will wreck your day. And if you have objective secured troops, I fire until you aren't contesting and then score. If you're playing Maelstrom, Eldar want to go first. Regular, Eldar want to go second.

I'd not be so reductive on how broken jetbikes are. When the one thing they are good at is called "winning the game," I'd say I'm okay with that.

Guys, it doesn't matter how good or bad the OPs list/tactics were, he's still correct.

Eldar is the best codex in 40k, efficient in the hands of dummies, borderline-broken when wielded by veterans. "Fun" is a subjective term, but unless you're definition of it is accepting the consequences of battling a superior foe, you probably didn't have any...

Here's my optimistic outlook on armies such as Eldar. If you loose- NO PROBLEM! You weren't supposed to win anyway. If you win, it feels great.

 TheSilo wrote:
Yes, clearly it was my inexperience (having only played since 3rd edition) and my ally's (having played since 5th edition). In the previous game I allied with the guy hosting (who has played since 2nd edition). So clearly it was just our stupidity and inexperience.

Alone, I had over 50 infantrymen on the board with 1,000 points. Pask and his buddies would have been dead on turn 2, just like my tank commander.

You say you've been playing since 3rd edition, yet your list is garbage, being filled with useless items like grenade launchers, and you apparently have no idea what "bubble-wrap" is. Shining Spears can only kill a Leman Russ in assault. How exactly are they going to assault a Leman Russ when it's literally surrounded in a U-shape formation by guardsmen? There is no physical space for Shining Spears to get into assault with it. So they have to punch through the Guardsmen first, and if they're relying on hit and run to not get stuck in then that gives you free reign to shoot them off the board, which you should be able to easily do with the IG's readily available access to AP3 and AP2.

That Eldar are extremely powerful is a given, and I don't think anyone would disagree. However the problem presented in this thread by you is not a balance problem, it's a learn2play problem.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Yes, clearly it was my inexperience (having only played since 3rd edition) and my ally's (having played since 5th edition). In the previous game I allied with the guy hosting (who has played since 2nd edition). So clearly it was just our stupidity and inexperience.

Alone, I had over 50 infantrymen on the board with 1,000 points. Pask and his buddies would have been dead on turn 2, just like my tank commander.

You say you've been playing since 3rd edition, yet your list is garbage, being filled with useless items like grenade launchers, and you apparently have no idea what "bubble-wrap" is. Shining Spears can only kill a Leman Russ in assault. How exactly are they going to assault a Leman Russ when it's literally surrounded in a U-shape formation by guardsmen? There is no physical space for Shining Spears to get into assault with it. So they have to punch through the Guardsmen first, and if they're relying on hit and run to not get stuck in then that gives you free reign to shoot them off the board, which you should be able to easily do with the IG's readily available access to AP3 and AP2.

That Eldar are extremely powerful is a given, and I don't think anyone would disagree. However the problem presented in this thread by you is not a balance problem, it's a learn2play
problem.

While your quote is true, do you really need to berate someone like that?

If it gets the point across.

Just seems like this dude is playing an army he likes.

I can sympathize. My list would be awful in any competitive environment. I still go down fighting every time, but its a list I enjoy. Its just unfortunate than most eldar lists are leagues ahead. Heck, even if the eldar guy went easy it would still be an uphill battle.

Just dont play eldar mate. And if you do, make sure you talk before hand. If thats a list you like, then keep playing it. Just be careful who you play with. If you really want to keep playing the eldar forces, simply try learn fast how to reduce the speed in which they kill you. Last game I had around 50% losses by turn 7 against an eldar list. Still lost, but its better than 99% losses I had last time by the end of the game.

Dont turn it into an arms race via list building. Its easy for someone (baxicanX) who plays only online and can change the list however and whenever, but using models is a vastly different story.