Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Sure, but once you resort to "it's magic" you can no longer say things like "a primarch survived X therefore they should survive Y", since you have no idea what rules the magic works by and have conceded that it doesn't obey the usual laws of the universe. Maybe the primarch is protected from titans because they are doomed to die at the hands of an anonymous guardsman and his lasgun, and nothing can interfere with this fate. So when a random guardsman takes aim at a primarch we now have absolutely no idea what the result will be.
Sure, or maybe they're just supernaturally durable. The difference is my position has evidence to back it.
That's not how it works.
Yes, it is.
Yes, 40k has things like fungus orks, but what you have to do is ask "given that fungus orks exist, what should I expect to happen", not simply throw out the entire concept of realism. And by that rule we know that primarchs exist and that there are impressive stories of the feats they performed 10,000 years ago, so the question then is how to interpret them: do we take them as literal truth, or do we consider them myths and propaganda about a long-forgotten age? The former breaks all hope of realism, the latter allows at least some degree of realism to be maintained and fits the tabletop game fairly well.
I don't care if the former breaks all hope of realism, I'm not trying to make Warhammer 40,000 something it isn't.
As for it fitting the tabletop, oh yeah? Because on the tabletop the Primarchs are veritable beatsticks that slaughter the average Greater Daemon like they're made of tissue paper and take bolter rounds to the face with a smile. Sort of like the fluff.
Yes! That's exactly the point! The primarchs are the equivalent of Achilles: when we hear the stories about how he was immune to any weapon except in his foot we don't start trying to figure out how exactly that worked and what would happen if a titan shot him, we understand that his invulnerability is part of the myth and assume that the real Achilles was simply a great, but mortal, warrior. Same with the primarchs, in the 40k setting they're the mythological heroes from 10,000 years ago, and they need to be understood in that context.
The difference is that Achilles presumably didn't exist in a setting with actual planet-razing daemons nor was he expected to fight them in hand to hand combat. There's no proof the mythological creatures of antiquity existed. Bloodthirsters definitely do exist in 40k, and Sanguinius broke one of the mightiest of their number's backs over his knee.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
To quote the same site:
Warhammer 40,000 features chainsaw swords, psychic spacemen, elves in space, orcs in space, undead robots, planet-eating bugs, three-hundred-metre-tall millennia-old walking battle cathedrals, soul-eating space stations and vehicles that travel faster because they're painted red (justified, sort of...), and that's just scratching the surface. The primary means of FTL is flying through Hell. In 40k, Rule of Cool is physics. As is Rule of Scary.
Warhammer 40,000 features chainsaw swords, psychic spacemen, elves in space, orcs in space, undead robots, planet-eating bugs, three-hundred-metre-tall millennia-old walking battle cathedrals, soul-eating space stations and vehicles that travel faster because they're painted red (justified, sort of...), and that's just scratching the surface. The primary means of FTL is flying through Hell. In 40k, Rule of Cool is physics. As is Rule of Scary.
Void__Dragon wrote: Why are those things perfectly plausible, but superhero Primarchs are not?
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 02:20:32
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
Then stop posting in the threads, because if you say things and I feel they warrant commenting on, I'm going to comment on them. That's what a forum is for.
Nowhere did I say whether I believed it was plausible or not. I refuse to associate with you, so don't expect me to express my personal thoughts ever again. You refuse to even consider anybody elses opinions.
Then stop posting in the threads, because if you say things and I feel they warrant commenting on, I'm going to comment on them. That's what a forum is for.
Or like, ignore me. I don't care, lol.
Or you can stop acting like you know everything, and you can you can stop acting like your intelligence is superior to everyone else.
Void__Dragon wrote: At no point did I insult you or your intelligence, we simply had a difference of opinion. I just happen to believe mine is better-founded than yours.
Hey, I didn't say anybodies opinions were better founded, I just know your opinions aren't as perfect as you think they are. Debating is fine. I just don't like the way you do it. You can include respect for other peoples opinions despite how badly you may disagree. Stop saying you know for a fact you are right and everyone else is wrong.
I ain't telling you what to do, I just appreciate a little consideration. Now, I'm gonna move on from this. Have a good night, I need to get some sleep.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 05:48:13
Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Deadshot wrote: Didn't Rogal Dorn supposedly die to a bunch of no-names in a Black Crusade? Why not Angron?
There's a huuugggee difference between the events of Betrayer and the Wolf and Red Angel going to war. In the former, Betrayer, Lorgar waz super juiced up on Chaos power and his own psychic abilities. And Angron was simply lifting a heavy object and performing resistance training. Anyone can do that to one degree or another at different pressures and resistances.
That's a hell of a lot of difference to have hundreds of large calibre explosive rounds explode inside your chest and head at close range.
Angron had a bomb blow up and bury him under hundreds of feet of rubble in Betrayer.
Lorgar also wasn't amplified when he survived the Plasma Blast Gun.
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
Redcruisair wrote: Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
Haven't been reading much of their latest works.
I do indeed request spoilers. Excited to see what they got going on.
To me it is not even so much about realism, than what I find cool and what I find puerile and stupid.
People are perfectly free to take HH books at face value, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong; it is a valid interpretation. This is even though I think that HH novels are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K background (them, or Mat Ward, I can't quite decide.) However, personally I continue regard HH stories as myths.
To me HH was cool when it was some ancient legends about things that happened ages ago. HH books took all those epic tales, took them literally, and made Primarchs boring invincible superheroes (with magic!) Frankly, I don't get why this appeals to people, but then again, I never understood why anyone liked Superman. It is not about making sense, 40K doesn't need to make sense, but I prefer it dark, dirty and gritty.
Crimson wrote: To me it is not even so much about realism, than what I find cool and what I find puerile and stupid.
People are perfectly free to take HH books at face value, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong; it is a valid interpretation. This is even though I think that HH novels are the worst thing that has ever happened to 40K background (them, or Mat Ward, I can't quite decide.) However, personally I continue regard HH stories as myths.
To me HH was cool when it was some ancient legends about things that happened ages ago. HH books took all those epic tales, took them literally, and made Primarchs boring invincible superheroes (with magic!) Frankly, I don't get why this appeals to people, but then again, I never understood why anyone liked Superman. It is not about making sense, 40K doesn't need to make sense, but I prefer it dark, dirty and gritty.
I agree. I lost interest when I found out primarchs were quite litteraly gods. Of course primarchs are powerful, but it got out of hand with the lorgar and angron deal imo.
Warning! Spoilers from ‘Vengeful Spirit’ and ‘Unremembered Empire’ below.
Spoiler:
In Graham’s novel ‘Vengeful Spirit’, Horus along with Mortarion and Demon Fulgrim are ambushed by a squadron of Fire Raptors. The encounter leaves Horus and ascended-Fulgrim critically wounded, and much more surprising, Mortarion, the hardiest of all primarchs, nearly dead.
Spoiler:
Another scene in ‘Vengeful Spirit’, where Horus is corned and nearly shot to oblivion by a large formation of imperial knights, with Horus’ new routine of possessed terminator bodyguards sacrificing themselves in a desperate attempt to save their master. The author makes it clear, that prior to his bodyguard’s intervention, the situation was extremely dire for Horus.
Spoiler:
In ‘Unremembered Empire’, there is a scene in which an unarmed Guilliman is attacked by Ultramarines . Despite only being space marines armed with bolters and combat-knifes, they still manage to bring Guilliman down to his knees, with one marine sergeant having his blade on Robotue’s throat.
Oh and there were only ten of them. Yes that’s right folks, only ten of them.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Redcruisair wrote: Considering the discussion about Primarchs and their op-levelness in this thread has anyone got any thoughts on Abnett’s and Graham’s portrayal of their primarchs in their most recent works?
In contrast to ADB, these two gentlemen have a more down to earth approach with the Primarch powerlevels. Now don’t get me wrong, the primarchs in those novels still kicks ass and rightfully so, but now they also appear to be more vulnerable and less tanky.
Any thoughts about this? I’ll be happy to post some spoilers about this in the case it should be requested.
I think it contradicts McNeill's previous works where Angron lifts a mountain off the top of him, but okay.
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
Oh okay, go ahead and ignore the "A bomb blew up on him" part if it suits your argument lol. Oh by the way, his arms not snapping when he caught the Titan's foot also proves that he should be virtually immune to bolters.
Uh, no, that was Lorgar having unlocked his psychic potential, which carries very different implications than "he was powered up". He was powered up when he channeled the spell that made Angron a Daemon Prince.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 21:50:05
Just being buried doesn't mean all the weight is on top of you. Look at people stuck in mines when they cave in. There's hundreds of feet of dirt and rubble but the guys survive. Angron simply found a spot when enough weight was spread out to prevent him being crushed. Then he dug his way out, which would have been easy given his strength and stamina to dig, the poweeful chainaxes he used to saw through the rubble (although broke them) and his enhanced biology which allows him to survive on the tiny amount of air.
And Lorgar was powered up. He was powered up from the battle at Isstvan V where he unleashed his psychic power to prevent Corax killing the Gal Vorbak. Shortly before that Titan incident, Lorgar chucked his Crozius into a gunship and then "pulled it from the air on the power of pure spite" (paraphrased). Later, he is shown to regenerate at a rate that worries even Angron.
Oh okay, go ahead and ignore the "A bomb blew up on him" part if it suits your argument lol. Oh by the way, his arms not snapping when he caught the Titan's foot also proves that he should be virtually immune to bolters.
Uh, no, that was Lorgar having unlocked his psychic potential, which carries very different implications than "he was powered up". He was powered up when he channeled the spell that made Angron a Daemon Prince.
Ok, will address in order.
1: You didn't say it blew up on top of him. You said it blew up. Very different situations. Plus, why should a bomb kill him? When he's wearing armour and has that supersuperhuman biology?
2: That proves nothing of the sort. Like I said, its simple resistance training. Hell of a difference getting shot and a heavy object. Professional strongmen can lift heavy objects such as cars and pull lorries on a rope. But put a few 9mm through their chest and they'll have as much chance as anyone.
Scale that up to 12ft tall Primarchs with supersuperhuman strength. They can lift supersuperheavy objects such as pushing back the Warhound's foot, but put a few dozen extremely large, armour penetrating explosive Bolts in their organs and they'll die like everyone else because their organs are now pulped.
3: Is there a difference? He's embracing the source of his psychic powers and gets a buff to his psychic powers and then buffs himself? That sounds about right to me. He only took 1 shot and it wasn't even a full shot. IIRC, the first shot dissipated against a force field he set up. The second broke through and burned him but didn't kill, and it lost some of its energy to break through the shield.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/05 22:17:38
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
I think it contradicts McNeill's previous works where Angron lifts a mountain off the top of him, but okay.
Maybe McNeil wanted to portray the primarchs in a new light? Who really knows?
I have always interpreted the mountain thing as just a how it looked to the onlookers. The whole event was seen through Loken’s eyes if I recall correctly.
Ultimately it comes down to how you interpreted the fluff. Some think Angron can lift mountains, while others think he was just pure fortunate to escape the trap unharmed.
If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
You also need to consider that ultimately, the primarchs can’t be killed off. Many of them have roles to play later on. How do the authors cope with this? It’s really simple; they put the primarchs in situation where they are in mortal danger of dying. It’s like a flight simulation. Not the real thing, but still close enough.
I think an important question to ask oneself is whether we will see a turning point in how the primarchs are portrayed. Personally I think the HH authors, including ADB, are heading towards a more mature approach with their characters, with the primarchs included.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/06 00:28:53
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
. Despite only being space marines armed with bolters and combat-knifes, they still manage to bring Guilliman down to his knees, with one marine sergeant having his blade on Robotue’s throat.
