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 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I would have to say orks. They don't fight for gain, politics , hate , revenge, expansion or malice.

They just love to fight who ever when ever. They even find humor in violance.

Reasons for fighting:
Tau : expansion
Imperium: expansion and hates aliens
chaos : hates the galaxy
necrons: kill all living things
nids: expansion and eat everything for survival
dark eldar: evil love to torture and enslave
eldar: despises lesser races and want to reclaim what they lost
and finally,
Orks: looking for a good time with any one.

I don't think I've ever seen eldar attack anyone just because they despise them, and to be honest only certain Craftworld's are attempting to reclaim the empire. Most of what they're fighting for is survival as a species and a culture. Personally I like to think of their race as something of a redemption story true by defeating Slaanesh and righting the wrongs made a millenia ago.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I would have to say orks. They don't fight for gain, politics

How can you say that Orks do not fight for politics, when really that is the only way they do all of their political stuff ?
Also, their money is the teeth of other orks, so I am pretty sure they do fight to get them.
The third war of Armageddon was also all about Gazhkull seeking revenge on Yarrick. Well, arguably, it could be described more as wanting a rematch because you enjoyed the first game, but how could you call the bombing of Hades if not horrible revenge?
Also, orks are just as racists as imperials. Ask the digga.

Did I mentioned how orks enslaved a whole specie ?

I think a more interesting thread would be on which faction is the biggest douchebag.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think a more interesting thread would be on which faction is the biggest douchebag.

Eldar trickery!

Rerouting alien forces to fight wars fir them. Pretty douchey. very cowardly.

 Selym wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think a more interesting thread would be on which faction is the biggest douchebag.

Eldar trickery!

Rerouting alien forces to fight wars fir them. Pretty douchey. very cowardly.

I dunno... blowing up Badab while it was still full of friendly forces is pretty douchey. Besides- how many times did a allied army quit a war because they had to work alongside them? The Fire Angels quit the Badab War after fighting *alongside* the Space Sharks.

Squats

They were so good aligned that they got written right out.

Orks are actually very racist. Their fluff is filled with them thinking many things are "unorky", etc. And Grazghull's quote about how the orcs should conquer humans because they're weak, except for Yarrick (he knows how to fight!). Etc etc etc. They're also very quick to kill other orks for heresy in their own way (which is one of several reasons Chaos has a tough time getting a hold of them). Heck, Orks will kill other Orks just for saying something is Gork when they think it's Mork. Admittingly, Orks will kill for any reason whatsoever but religion is an especially fast way to get on the krumpin' list. (honestly can't blame them though considering that Gork and Mork are possibly the nicest gods in the setting to their race. It says a lot about the setting though when the nicest gods might be the nicest because they maybe don't actually exist, but even in the circumstances where they seemingly do, they're only ever being benevolent to Orks for the most part, but I digress)

 Selym wrote:
Rerouting alien forces to fight wars fir them. Pretty douchey. very cowardly.

I call that “Intelligent and practical”.

^^
I think In terms of killed civilians of the own faction the Imperium has cleary the edge on winning the douchebag award.

I think the Eldar are the faction which wont lie straight up to you but they would avoid to give you any useful information or
tell you what is their intend. Better be no tread to them...And that dosent keep them from trickery.

A few other examples

Orkz = Lie
Imperium=
Tau=
Regular Space Marine = truth
Grey Nights =
Dark Eldar= if you trust
Necrons= trustworthy
Chaos=
Adepta Sororita= Do you trust the pope?
Tyranides= They wont lie to to you , do they? Did they?
Demons= lie
The Emperor= uuumm he killed his brother... do not trust
Eldar=

You can see almost any race wich dos not talk do not lie and therefore is not douchbaggy as much

JohnZoo wrote:
^^
I think In terms of killed civilians of the own faction the Imperium has cleary the edge on winning the douchebag award.

Pretty sure Chaos kills civilians in at least as much an equal ratio of civilian-to-leader/army/whatever if not more, depending on how you're measuring the ratio. Sure, in the matter of pure numbers, yea, the Imperium probably wins, but only because it has so many civilians and everything else in the first place, and even that we're not sure about since we don't know how many "civilians" are in the eye of terror. In terms of ratio/proportion, though, Chaos possibly has it beat. Some Chaos factions don't kill as many civilians because the closest thing they have "civilians" went EXTINCT (such as the Emperor's Children, who ended up raiding other Chaos factions for slaves when their own slaves ran out)

Dark Eldar would kill lots of civilians too if there was actually such a thing in Dark Eldar society. Instead they just go through slaves as fast as the Emperor's Children did (except DE can actually get fresh slaves fast enough to replace them).

Ork slaves (from other races) don't last very long either. Even for Gretchen, MaKari's lifespan of 7 years was considered old, but that might just be a "natural" lifespan thing rather than something done by Orks (although in Makari's case it was an ork that killed him, but by accident)

JohnZoo wrote:
^^
I think In terms of killed civilians of the own faction the Imperium has cleary the edge on winning the douchebag award.

I think the Eldar are the faction which wont lie straight up to you but they would avoid to give you any useful information or
tell you what is their intend. Better be no tread to them...And that dosent keep them from trickery.

A few other examples

Orkz = Lie
Imperium=
Tau=
Regular Space Marine = truth
Grey Nights =
Dark Eldar= if you trust
Necrons= trustworthy
Chaos=
Adepta Sororita= Do you trust the pope?
Tyranides= They wont lie to to you , do they? Did they?
Demons= lie
The Emperor= uuumm he killed his brother... do not trust
Eldar=

You can see almost any race wich dos not talk do not lie and therefore is not douchbaggy as much

The Emperor did not have siblings to kill and the Eldar kill take twins, kill one to put into a soul stone then put it into a Wraithknight construct and have the other sibling pilot it so yeah, how does that make the Emperor not trustworthy when the Eldar do it on a daily basis if that were true in the first place? The Emperor killed Horus but that is after he rebelled and attacked Terra and slaughtered millions so it was kind of coming to him in the first place.

 Akar wrote:
Squats

They were so good aligned that they got written right out.

Yes they were more humane than the humans so the inquisition steered the tyranids toward them!

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Squats

They were so good aligned that they got written right out.

Yes they were more humane than the humans so the inquisition steered the tyranids toward them!

Benevolent space dwarves helping the Imperium?! Kill 'em.

Not fair, my local GW doesn't sell pink fluffy stuff

 Envihon wrote:

JohnZoo wrote:
^^
I think In terms of killed civilians of the own faction the Imperium has cleary the edge on winning the douchebag award.

I think the Eldar are the faction which wont lie straight up to you but they would avoid to give you any useful information or
tell you what is their intend. Better be no tread to them...And that dosent keep them from trickery.

A few other examples

Orkz = Lie
Imperium=
Tau=
Regular Space Marine = truth
Grey Nights =
Dark Eldar= if you trust
Necrons= trustworthy
Chaos=
Adepta Sororita= Do you trust the pope?
Tyranides= They wont lie to to you , do they? Did they?
Demons= lie
The Emperor= uuumm he killed his brother... do not trust
Eldar=

You can see almost any race wich dos not talk do not lie and therefore is not douchbaggy as much

The Emperor did not have siblings to kill and the Eldar kill take twins, kill one to put into a soul stone then put it into a Wraithknight construct and have the other sibling pilot it so yeah, how does that make the Emperor not trustworthy when the Eldar do it on a daily basis if that were true in the first place? The Emperor killed Horus but that is after he rebelled and attacked Terra and slaughtered millions so it was kind of coming to him in the first place.

To be fair the eldar don't all kill twins, its a taboo suggested by radical farseers to make eldar darker. But even if they did is that really any worse than the emperor having a thousand souls sacrificed to him daily or the imperial guard believing that ammunition is worth more value than the lives of their own soldiers?

I was simply pointing out that the Eldar do some screwed up stuff as much as the Imperium does in the name of furthering their own goals. This is grim dark after all and the Eldar aren't the best of a race either.

 Envihon wrote:
I was simply pointing out that the Eldar do some screwed up stuff as much as the Imperium does in the name of furthering their own goals. This is grim dark after all and the Eldar aren't the best of a race either.

I understand what you're trying to say, no ones "good" in 40k. But if you're going the route to smear the eldar and prove they're as bad as the IoM wouldn't it make more sense to point out things that are more than just rumors to the Eldar themselves? For example, the eldar and IoM have a habit of backstabbing each other after making impromptu alliances to fight off larger and more brutal enemies. And honestly I can't see the eldar being worse than the imperium. They don't bring on genocide to their own people, and they're not guided by blind zealotry and hate. But I suppose we've both got our own opinions.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I would have to say orks. They don't fight for gain, politics

How can you say that Orks do not fight for politics, when really that is the only way they do all of their political stuff ?
Also, their money is the teeth of other orks, so I am pretty sure they do fight to get them.
The third war of Armageddon was also all about Gazhkull seeking revenge on Yarrick. Well, arguably, it could be described more as wanting a rematch because you enjoyed the first game, but how could you call the bombing of Hades if not horrible revenge?
Also, orks are just as racists as imperials. Ask the digga.

Did I mentioned how orks enslaved a whole specie ?

A good laugh?

All armies are douchebags, orks are just the only ones that are douchebags because it is fun.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Orks are actually very racist. Their fluff is filled with them thinking many things are "unorky", etc. And Grazghull's quote about how the orcs should conquer humans because they're weak, except for Yarrick (he knows how to fight!). Etc etc etc. They're also very quick to kill other orks for heresy in their own way (which is one of several reasons Chaos has a tough time getting a hold of them). Heck, Orks will kill other Orks just for saying something is Gork when they think it's Mork. Admittingly, Orks will kill for any reason whatsoever but religion is an especially fast way to get on the krumpin' list. (honestly can't blame them though considering that Gork and Mork are possibly the nicest gods in the setting to their race. It says a lot about the setting though when the nicest gods might be the nicest because they maybe don't actually exist, but even in the circumstances where they seemingly do, they're only ever being benevolent to Orks for the most part, but I digress)

On the flip-side, Ork morality is an entirely different beast than that of other races. Orcs have very little in the way of a preservation instinct and don't feel much in the way of pain, 'suffering' is almost unknown to them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality

Orks really are the 'nicest' race; or at least the least 'evil'. They're not less evil because they commit less atrocities / generally treat things nicer, they're better because.. Well, it's what they do. Ork belief is simply that being stronger means your entitled to do what you please with those smaller and weaker, it's as simple as that. They don't grasp pain or fear of death to a large extent either, so they're mostly blind to the suffering they cause. That's not a terribly good thing, but let's be real here.. Would you rather be captured by Orks, or captured by literally anyone else? Under Orkish capture you'll toil away as a slave until you decide to act up, at which point you'll meet a brutal (but quick) end. Literally every other race will torture you for various reasons with the exceptions of Tyranids - they won't even give you the option to surrender.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Would you rather be captured by Orks, or captured by literally anyone else?

By Craftworld Eldar or Tau, thank you.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Literally every other race will torture you for various reasons with the exceptions of Tyranids - they won't even give you the option to surrender.

Except for the Imperium where most faction will just kill you right away, the tau that will allows you to become part of their empire, the craftworld eldar that will do… something?, the necrons that will likely kill you right away. So, yeah, daemons, Chaos marines and Dark Eldar are likely to torture you and therefore worse than Orks. Big deal.

Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

 morganfreeman wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Orks are actually very racist. Their fluff is filled with them thinking many things are "unorky", etc. And Grazghull's quote about how the orcs should conquer humans because they're weak, except for Yarrick (he knows how to fight!). Etc etc etc. They're also very quick to kill other orks for heresy in their own way (which is one of several reasons Chaos has a tough time getting a hold of them). Heck, Orks will kill other Orks just for saying something is Gork when they think it's Mork. Admittingly, Orks will kill for any reason whatsoever but religion is an especially fast way to get on the krumpin' list. (honestly can't blame them though considering that Gork and Mork are possibly the nicest gods in the setting to their race. It says a lot about the setting though when the nicest gods might be the nicest because they maybe don't actually exist, but even in the circumstances where they seemingly do, they're only ever being benevolent to Orks for the most part, but I digress)

On the flip-side, Ork morality is an entirely different beast than that of other races. Orcs have very little in the way of a preservation instinct and don't feel much in the way of pain, 'suffering' is almost unknown to them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality

Orks really are the 'nicest' race; or at least the least 'evil'. They're not less evil because they commit less atrocities / generally treat things nicer, they're better because.. Well, it's what they do. Ork belief is simply that being stronger means your entitled to do what you please with those smaller and weaker, it's as simple as that. They don't grasp pain or fear of death to a large extent either, so they're mostly blind to the suffering they cause. That's not a terribly good thing, but let's be real here.. Would you rather be captured by Orks, or captured by literally anyone else? Under Orkish capture you'll toil away as a slave until you decide to act up, at which point you'll meet a brutal (but quick) end. Literally every other race will torture you for various reasons with the exceptions of Tyranids - they won't even give you the option to surrender.

and don't forget they're they only race that is environmentally friendly. Take a barren wasteland of a planet, add a few orks, (dead or alive) and soon all sorts plant life returns, and the wasteland becomes a fertile planet again.

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

The Imperium is too large to be written off as douchey, it depends on the part of the imperium you are dealing with.

The almost secular Ultramarines for example, are not douchey, and the same for the likes of the Salamanders, what about their behavior makes them douchey?

 mattyrm wrote:
The Imperium is too large to be written off as douchey, it depends on the part of the imperium you are dealing with.

The almost secular Ultramarines for example, are not douchey, and the same for the likes of the Salamanders, what about their behavior makes them douchey?

Their MO: KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Though it is pretty much always justified.

 Selym wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

Not really. There isn't any "real" good in Chaos. Chaos is litterally the adjacent to Biblical hell. It is a terrible place and any followers who fail to please their god to their satisfaction are tortured for all eternity.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

Not really. There isn't any "real" good in Chaos. Chaos is litterally the adjacent to Biblical hell. It is a terrible place and any followers who fail to please their god to their satisfaction are tortured for all eternity.

Apart from the bit where mass goodness will spawn a warp entity, and that it's possible that the Emprah is a chaos god now.

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

Not really. There isn't any "real" good in Chaos. Chaos is litterally the adjacent to Biblical hell. It is a terrible place and any followers who fail to please their god to their satisfaction are tortured for all eternity.

Apart from the bit where mass goodness will spawn a warp entity, and that it's possible that the Emprah is a chaos god now.

Chaos is formed from the emotional fears and sins of all sentient beings (which obliterates the alpha legion theory), which I believe makes it relatively evil.

Where does the emprah turning into a chaos god come from?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

Not really. There isn't any "real" good in Chaos. Chaos is litterally the adjacent to Biblical hell. It is a terrible place and any followers who fail to please their god to their satisfaction are tortured for all eternity.

Apart from the bit where mass goodness will spawn a warp entity, and that it's possible that the Emprah is a chaos god now.

Chaos is formed from the emotional fears and sins of all sentient beings (which obliterates the alpha legion theory), which I believe makes it relatively evil.

Where does the emprah turning into a chaos god come from?

Various fan theories, and his immense psychic power resonating across the warp. And giving all SoB's a faith save.

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Selym wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
Will people stop saying Chaos isn't wholly evil in 40k. It is. The only "good" in Chaos or that they take part in is to entice people to corruption. That's it. They are utterly and completely evil through and through. That is why they use the word "malign" to describe them over and over and over.

And GK are the very bestest of the best Level 9001 paladins of goodness!

Nothing is 100%. Some powers of chaos are used for good, or are explicitly good, or have good facets to them. Khorne isn't pure bloodlust, he also embodies martial honor. Nurgle isn't just death and disease, he is also life and family and companionship. Slaanesh, while horribly debased, is the embodiement of the pursuit of happiness, which is a constitutional right in the US.

But Tzeentch is a cheating bastard.

Not really. There isn't any "real" good in Chaos. Chaos is litterally the adjacent to Biblical hell. It is a terrible place and any followers who fail to please their god to their satisfaction are tortured for all eternity.

Apart from the bit where mass goodness will spawn a warp entity, and that it's possible that the Emprah is a chaos god now.

Chaos is formed from the emotional fears and sins of all sentient beings (which obliterates the alpha legion theory), which I believe makes it relatively evil.

Where does the emprah turning into a chaos god come from?

Various fan theories, and his immense psychic power resonating across the warp. And giving all SoB's a faith save.

It's impossible. However, it is most likely if the emperor dies, the emotional backlashes across the imperium will birth a new chaos god.