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Wyzilla wrote: Inquisitors are not more intelligent than Astartes in the art of war
Yeah, Astartes are more fluent in military tactics than Inquisitors, because that is the marine's job, and not at all the Inquisitor's job. But two people fighting is not a war.
Wyzilla wrote: and nor for that matter does intelligence have anything to do with reaction speeds.
No. But it sure can help when trying to kill someone rather than being killed.
[edit]Removed the sarcastic comments that were uncalled for. I got irritated at what I think is a constant overstatement of the marines capacities, which was a bit childish from me. But I still think you are overestimating the marine's reflexes here. Marines are fast, faster than unmodified humans (which, frankly, Inquisitors usually are not), and therefore way faster than they look. But they look slow. They are gorilla-like behemoths. Eldar are also way faster than they look, but eldar look fast. A fight between an eldar fighter and a marine should look like that. If only because it is way more interesting than “Since I was both stronger, tougher, faster, more skilled, and more intelligent than the eldar, I just beat her to death in two seconds”.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 14:36:08
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Well for Craftworld Eldar, the Sons of Orar ripped Alaitoc a new one with Guardsmen support and would have destroyed Alaitoc were it not for the Farseers exposing the reason behind the crusade was false. Then there's this beaut from Blood Gorgons.
Spoiler:
“As Hepshah struggled to regain his breath, the Chaos Space Marine gripped him firmly by the face, pinning his head with a delicate grip. His other hand darted, whisper quick, tapping him on the temple with a longmace. No more than a light double tap. Hepshah stopped struggling. The dark eldar was no longer recognisable from the neck up. The encounter took just seconds and by the time Hepshah’s body was discovered, Barsabbas was already gone.
Moribeth found Draaz hung from the rafters. She found Fhaisor and Amul Teth reclining behind a bombed out dust buggy. In the open, tossed amongst the debris, was a stove boiler that leaked blood. She did not open the coal hatch, but presumed it to contain the remains of Sabhira. She did not feel fear – only indignity. Snarling, she stalked through the ruins. Occasionally she stopped to crack her whip meaningfully, with a belligerent pop. It was a declaratory snap and most knew to run when they heard it.
‘You can’t hide from me,’ she sang. She had always been the predator. Ever since her young maiden years, Moribeth had accompanied her cousins on slave raids. This was second nature to her. In her free hand, hidden behind her back, was a neural blade gifted to her by her kabal’s mistress. The poison it secreted overloaded the pain nerves in living creatures. She pitied anything that crossed her path.
‘Come out, come out,’ she cooed.
‘Here I am.’ The voice sounded like slabs of rockcrete grinding together. A shadow fell across her. Moribeth turned and her confidence dissipated. She slashed her neural whip low, but the tip snapped listlessly as it connected with ceramite. With a speed that surprised her, the horned warrior slapped the top of her head with his palm. There was a pop as her spine compressed and vertebrae slipped out of joint. Moribeth died still believing herself a predator.
‘Face me!’ Vhaal howled, raising his arms into the air in challenge. A muzzle flashed in the distance. Low and muffled. The bolter’s bark. Vhaal, second son of the kabal, fell unceremoniously through a screen paper window, his feet stiffening awkwardly in the air. He was already dead before he landed, felled by a single shot.
The monkeigh warrior appeared indifferent to his threats. He walked into and through the caprid fence that separated them, splintering the wood with his shins and thighs.
‘Catch me to kill me!’ Sindul spat. He leapt up against the sheer rock wall behind him, limbs splayed against the surface, and began to scarper up the vertical drop. He used his lacerator gloves, dragging the hooked claws of his fists for purchase. He shot up the wall like a rodent, scaling twelve metres in a matter of seconds before bounding backwards into the air. A bolter round missed him as he leapt. He landed behind the monkeigh, slashing his lacerators as he sailed overhead. But the horned warrior was faster than Sindul had estimated. It was a grave error. The monkeigh spun with practiced fluidity, pouncing with all the weight and drive of a quarter tonne primate. Sindul rolled aside, but not fast enough. The monkeigh snagged him with its paw and dragged him to the ground by his ankles. Sindul tried to regain his gyroscopic balance, but his thin ankle was locked in a hammer grip of ceramite.
‘I don’t need to kill you yet,’ growled the Traitor Marine as Sindul thrashed like a hooked fish. Dragging his splinter pistol free from its chest holster, the dark eldar began to fire. The first shot hammered a toxic splinter into heavy chest plate. The monkeigh dodged the second with a little dip of his head.
‘Stop, now.’ With that, the monkeigh backhanded him with steel-bound hands. Sindul’s head snapped violently off to the right and he blacked out.” / Blood Gorgons, p.75 & 76 - ** ... “When Sindul collapsed from exhaustion, Barsabbas simply draped him across one arm. The dark eldar weighed little more than his bolter.” / Blood Gorgons, p.84 - **
Then there was Elysius from the Tome of Fire trilogy, (in Firedrake) was captured by the Dark Eldar and dragged kicking in screaming into Commorragh. He then killed a Dark Eldar Wych Cult leader after they had removed his bionic arm/power fist and out of armor. Also, his Cronzius was broken and there was no powerfield, but it miraculously reactived for a second as he bashed the Wych's head in, likely thanks to the GEOM providing a miracle. And they "adopted" a Black Dragon they found in the arena who had lived there for at least several years, and was a CQC beast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/25 17:40:01
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Well, to be fair, Lelith is one of thes best close combat warriors in the galaxy. I would not mind being tortured by her, she can bring it
And to the point of Eldar and SM speeds, Eldar are definitely faster. Eldar are actually really good in CC too. Like the Orars Sepulchre. I believe an Ultramarine Sergeant killed a dozen aspect warriors before his broken body was finally killed. He made his mark as a hero that day, as he gave just enough time for his squad to accomplish their objective (whatever that was). Killing a dozen aspect warriors is a tremendous feat, even for a SM sergeant.
Well, to be fair, Lelith is one of thes best close combat warriors in the galaxy. I would not mind being tortured by her, she can bring it
And to the point of Eldar and SM speeds, Eldar are definitely faster. Eldar are actually really good in CC too. Like the Orars Sepulchre. I believe an Ultramarine Sergeant killed a dozen aspect warriors before his broken body was finally killed. He made his mark as a hero that day, as he gave just enough time for his squad to accomplish their objective (whatever that was). Killing a dozen aspect warriors is a tremendous feat, even for a SM sergeant.
No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them. Eldar react in microseconds to low milliseconds, just like astartes. You can't have something that works in the centiseconds go up against something reacting on a level of milliseconds or microseconds, it's on a completely different level and would be literally untouchable- viewing everyone else as just moving in slow motion.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Wyzilla wrote: Well for Craftworld Eldar, the Sons of Orar ripped Alaitoc a new one with Guardsmen support and would have destroyed Alaitoc were it not for the Farseers exposing the reason behind the crusade was false. Then there's this beaut from Blood Gorgons.
Protagonists beating antagonists? Incredible. Should I get Cain back to explain to you how Khorne berserkers are weaklings?
I mean they are big and burly, not slender and light. Therefore, they look like they would be slow, not fast.
(But thanks to you, I noticed the other possible meaning of what I said, and I like it )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them.
Big melee does not works like that: the one with the fastest reflex is not necessarily the winner. Having fast reflexes sure help, but being a good fencer helps too, being strong and though and enduring too, and chance also plays a role.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 18:02:34
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/07/25 18:09:32
Subject: Re:Single combat: Astartes vs. Inquisitor
Space Marines are soldiers built on an assembly line. They get their gene seed and a pretty set and standard series of enhancements. A space marine is a space marine is a space marine. Any space marine is going to wipe the floor with an unenhanced human, fight another space marine to a draw(as they are both equal) and get killed pretty easily against anything nastier.
Enhanced humans can be as strong as space marines, they can be stronger. Luther, Ko Phaeron and several other characters in the 40k universe are as strong or stronger than a marine. Enhancing a human without the geneseed costs more and can end with some complications, but there are still lots of enhanced humans running around the galaxy.
Inquisitors don't come in different flavors. No each and every one is different. Some are completely unenhanced, and would die very quickly. Even most of the enhanced humans would probably die. They might be faster, stronger, tougher than your normal human but they wouldnt be enough to match up against a marine. Some though, some would be able to win and win pretty easily against a marine.
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Well, to be fair, Lelith is one of thes best close combat warriors in the galaxy. I would not mind being tortured by her, she can bring it
And to the point of Eldar and SM speeds, Eldar are definitely faster. Eldar are actually really good in CC too. Like the Orars Sepulchre. I believe an Ultramarine Sergeant killed a dozen aspect warriors before his broken body was finally killed. He made his mark as a hero that day, as he gave just enough time for his squad to accomplish their objective (whatever that was). Killing a dozen aspect warriors is a tremendous feat, even for a SM sergeant.
No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them. Eldar react in microseconds to low milliseconds, just like astartes. You can't have something that works in the centiseconds go up against something reacting on a level of milliseconds or microseconds, it's on a completely different level and would be literally untouchable- viewing everyone else as just moving in slow motion.
Eldar are slightly faster than SM's, slightly. SM's are a lot stronger though and given how fast they are while possessing that strength is extraordinary. Eldar can contest with SM's in combat. That's why SM prefer using tactics instead of brute force with Eldar.
"Glory to the Iron father!"
2014/07/25 18:36:42
Subject: Re:Single combat: Astartes vs. Inquisitor
Exergy wrote: Space Marines are soldiers built on an assembly line.
No. Each chapter has its own initiation rituals and everything, some are more like handicraft than industrial.
Exergy wrote: They get their gene seed and a pretty set and standard series of enhancements. A space marine is a space marine is a space marine. Any space marine is going to wipe the floor with an unenhanced human, fight another space marine to a draw(as they are both equal) and get killed pretty easily against anything nastier.
No. Because they were different before the enhancement, they stay different after. We have tons of examples of marines that are better than other marines.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Well for Craftworld Eldar, the Sons of Orar ripped Alaitoc a new one with Guardsmen support and would have destroyed Alaitoc were it not for the Farseers exposing the reason behind the crusade was false. Then there's this beaut from Blood Gorgons.
Spoiler:
“As Hepshah struggled to regain his breath, the Chaos Space Marine gripped him firmly by the face, pinning his head with a delicate grip. His other hand darted, whisper quick, tapping him on the temple with a longmace. No more than a light double tap. Hepshah stopped struggling. The dark eldar was no longer recognisable from the neck up. The encounter took just seconds and by the time Hepshah’s body was discovered, Barsabbas was already gone.
Moribeth found Draaz hung from the rafters. She found Fhaisor and Amul Teth reclining behind a bombed out dust buggy. In the open, tossed amongst the debris, was a stove boiler that leaked blood. She did not open the coal hatch, but presumed it to contain the remains of Sabhira. She did not feel fear – only indignity. Snarling, she stalked through the ruins. Occasionally she stopped to crack her whip meaningfully, with a belligerent pop. It was a declaratory snap and most knew to run when they heard it.
‘You can’t hide from me,’ she sang. She had always been the predator. Ever since her young maiden years, Moribeth had accompanied her cousins on slave raids. This was second nature to her. In her free hand, hidden behind her back, was a neural blade gifted to her by her kabal’s mistress. The poison it secreted overloaded the pain nerves in living creatures. She pitied anything that crossed her path.
‘Come out, come out,’ she cooed.
‘Here I am.’ The voice sounded like slabs of rockcrete grinding together. A shadow fell across her. Moribeth turned and her confidence dissipated. She slashed her neural whip low, but the tip snapped listlessly as it connected with ceramite. With a speed that surprised her, the horned warrior slapped the top of her head with his palm. There was a pop as her spine compressed and vertebrae slipped out of joint. Moribeth died still believing herself a predator.
‘Face me!’ Vhaal howled, raising his arms into the air in challenge. A muzzle flashed in the distance. Low and muffled. The bolter’s bark. Vhaal, second son of the kabal, fell unceremoniously through a screen paper window, his feet stiffening awkwardly in the air. He was already dead before he landed, felled by a single shot.
The monkeigh warrior appeared indifferent to his threats. He walked into and through the caprid fence that separated them, splintering the wood with his shins and thighs.
‘Catch me to kill me!’ Sindul spat. He leapt up against the sheer rock wall behind him, limbs splayed against the surface, and began to scarper up the vertical drop. He used his lacerator gloves, dragging the hooked claws of his fists for purchase. He shot up the wall like a rodent, scaling twelve metres in a matter of seconds before bounding backwards into the air. A bolter round missed him as he leapt. He landed behind the monkeigh, slashing his lacerators as he sailed overhead. But the horned warrior was faster than Sindul had estimated. It was a grave error. The monkeigh spun with practiced fluidity, pouncing with all the weight and drive of a quarter tonne primate. Sindul rolled aside, but not fast enough. The monkeigh snagged him with its paw and dragged him to the ground by his ankles. Sindul tried to regain his gyroscopic balance, but his thin ankle was locked in a hammer grip of ceramite.
‘I don’t need to kill you yet,’ growled the Traitor Marine as Sindul thrashed like a hooked fish. Dragging his splinter pistol free from its chest holster, the dark eldar began to fire. The first shot hammered a toxic splinter into heavy chest plate. The monkeigh dodged the second with a little dip of his head.
‘Stop, now.’ With that, the monkeigh backhanded him with steel-bound hands. Sindul’s head snapped violently off to the right and he blacked out.” / Blood Gorgons, p.75 & 76 - **
...
“When Sindul collapsed from exhaustion, Barsabbas simply draped him across one arm. The dark eldar weighed little more than his bolter.” / Blood Gorgons, p.84 - **
Then there was Elysius from the Tome of Fire trilogy, (in Firedrake) was captured by the Dark Eldar and dragged kicking in screaming into Commorragh. He then killed a Dark Eldar Wych Cult leader after they had removed his bionic arm/power fist and out of armor. Also, his Cronzius was broken and there was no powerfield, but it miraculously reactived for a second as he bashed the Wych's head in, likely thanks to the GEOM providing a miracle. And they "adopted" a Black Dragon they found in the arena who had lived there for at least several years, and was a CQC beast.
I'm not seeing anything pointing to Marines on average being as fast as trained Eldar warriors.
No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them. Eldar react in microseconds to low milliseconds, just like astartes. You can't have something that works in the centiseconds go up against something reacting on a level of milliseconds or microseconds, it's on a completely different level and would be literally untouchable- viewing everyone else as just moving in slow motion.
Which is why, despite Joe Frazier's superior speed, Foreman couldn't fight him, right? Oh wait, George Foreman beat his ass.
No one says Eldar are so much faster than Marines that the Marines can't keep up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exergy wrote: Space Marines are soldiers built on an assembly line. They get their gene seed and a pretty set and standard series of enhancements. A space marine is a space marine is a space marine. Any space marine is going to wipe the floor with an unenhanced human, fight another space marine to a draw(as they are both equal) and get killed pretty easily against anything nastier.
Enhanced humans can be as strong as space marines, they can be stronger. Luther, Ko Phaeron and several other characters in the 40k universe are as strong or stronger than a marine. Enhancing a human without the geneseed costs more and can end with some complications, but there are still lots of enhanced humans running around the galaxy.
Inquisitors don't come in different flavors. No each and every one is different. Some are completely unenhanced, and would die very quickly. Even most of the enhanced humans would probably die. They might be faster, stronger, tougher than your normal human but they wouldnt be enough to match up against a marine. Some though, some would be able to win and win pretty easily against a marine.
Now this is just ridiculous.
Space Marines can vary just like humans. It's why Arjac Rockfist and Abby the Despoiler can be huge even by the standards of Space Marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 18:49:03
Wyzilla wrote: Well for Craftworld Eldar, the Sons of Orar ripped Alaitoc a new one with Guardsmen support and would have destroyed Alaitoc were it not for the Farseers exposing the reason behind the crusade was false. Then there's this beaut from Blood Gorgons.
Protagonists beating antagonists? Incredible. Should I get Cain back to explain to you how Khorne berserkers are weaklings?
1) The Sons of Orar WERE the antagonists.
2) The Cain books are a gak source of any information-
2a) They widely contradict other information, especially Sister of Battle and Genestealers.
2b) They're a satire of 40k, begging the question of their validity.
2c) Cain was probably a Living Saint, IE empowered by the GEOM and by no means an example of an average human being.
3) Khorne Berserkers are only example of extremely gakky combatants, considering the entire style of Khorne is 'raging berserker', meaning they probably telegraph their moves and probably lack any form of combat to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them.
Big melee does not works like that: the one with the fastest reflex is not necessarily the winner. Having fast reflexes sure help, but being a good fencer helps too, being strong and though and enduring too, and chance also plays a role.
Y'know, if you actually don't know anything about a subject, maybe you shouldn't even talk about? Might be a good idea for you, considering strength has little at all to do with fencing/melee fighting, and is largely down entirely to speed, form, and skill/experience. The problem also that you don't even seem to comprehend on any level is how fast Eldar and Astartes are. Do you even know what microseconds are? Because if you don't, it's pointless talking to you as you cannot actually grasp the point and why Astartes have to be just as fast as Eldar in order to actually fight them 1 on 1.
Also, more speed/melee quotes.
The bout lasted sixteen minutes. That in itself would have made it one of the longest sparring sessions any of them had ever known. What made it more remarkable was the fact that in that time, there was no pause, no hesitation, no cessation. Erebus and Lucius flew at one another, and rang blows off one another’s blades at a rate of three or four a second. It was relentless, extraordinary, a dizzying blur of dancing bodies and gleaming swords that rang on and on like a dream.” / Horus Rising, p.588 - **
“As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.” / The Space Wolf Omnibus, p.269 - **
“Amakyre dodged backwards and let himself fall from the platform rather than face Veq’s blade, honed from the heart of a star and white-hot to all but Veq himself.
Gunfire erupted again from below. Veq swatted away a score of bullets from the Obliterator and caught three more with his free hand, throwing them back down to the floor of the bridge with a curse. The young one, the most dangerous, fired a well-aimed shot at his temple, but Veq flicked his head to the side and the silenced bolt flittered past him.
Veq took two steps and leapt, dropping through the lattice of bullet trails to land directly in front of the Obliterator whose every weapon was blazing at him from point-blank range. The star-sword cut through the air as Veq met every bullet, sending a sparkling fan of deflected fire in every direction.
The hulking Obliterator reeled as several of its own bullets punched through its biomechanical body. The flesh of one arm became fluid, extruded, and solidified into a blade of bone with gnawing teeth at the cutting edge. Veq ducked the first blow and parried the second, shearing the first blade in two as a barbed whip, tipped with a lamprey-like mouth, lashed from the Obliterator’s other arm. Veq grabbed the lash, wrapped it round his fist, and used it to swing the Obliterator hard into the wall by the doorway.
Armour split and cracked. Corrupted blood spilled. Veq paused to dodge more bolter fire from the other Word Bearers who were falling back through the doorway.” / Daemon Worldgons, p.472 - **
Astartes have to be just as fast as Eldar to engage them in melee, a gap in reflexes in a swordfight between two human combatants might be amendable, but in the case of the Eldar (who can get really lulzy by doing things like dodge lasguns, bolters, etc), it would be like trying to kill Neo with a normal human in the Matrix. The attacker would simply be moving in slow motion to the perception of Neo/Eldar, allowing them to easily dodge every blow and round fired. Plus Astartes have to make up for their bulk, that while they wear power armor like a second skin due tot he black carapace, they still weigh over 300 kilos and suffer limited mobility in tight areas. Yet they still beat Eldar in melee battle.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 19:34:32
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Pier Gerlofs Donia might have disagreed with Skallagrim on how much strength can impact a fight.
Given that Pier Gerlofs Donia was a pirate who fought in countless battles and Skallagrim isn't, I'm more inclined to believe him.
Oh, and his assessment of armoured combat is borderline disingenuous. Want to know what longsword fencing involved when armoured? Wrestling, with the sword as a lever. Which strength definitely helps with.
Liked the boxing comparison though, that was funny. Foreman was a top guy by virtue of solely being big and strong. He wasn't a particularly skilled boxer.
Oh, and in the very video you posted he conceded that strength was still an advantage.
Wyzilla wrote: Well for Craftworld Eldar, the Sons of Orar ripped Alaitoc a new one with Guardsmen support and would have destroyed Alaitoc were it not for the Farseers exposing the reason behind the crusade was false. Then there's this beaut from Blood Gorgons.
Protagonists beating antagonists? Incredible. Should I get Cain back to explain to you how Khorne berserkers are weaklings?
1) The Sons of Orar WERE the antagonists.
2) The Cain books are a gak source of any information-
2a) They widely contradict other information, especially Sister of Battle and Genestealers.
2b) They're a satire of 40k, begging the question of their validity.
2c) Cain was probably a Living Saint, IE empowered by the GEOM and by no means an example of an average human being.
3) Khorne Berserkers are only example of extremely gakky combatants, considering the entire style of Khorne is 'raging berserker', meaning they probably telegraph their moves and probably lack any form of combat to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyzilla wrote: No they aren't, they're equally fast as otherwise Astartes would be literally incapable of fighting them.
Big melee does not works like that: the one with the fastest reflex is not necessarily the winner. Having fast reflexes sure help, but being a good fencer helps too, being strong and though and enduring too, and chance also plays a role.
Y'know, if you actually don't know anything about a subject, maybe you shouldn't even talk about? Might be a good idea for you, considering strength has little at all to do with fencing/melee fighting, and is largely down entirely to speed, form, and skill/experience. The problem also that you don't even seem to comprehend on any level is how fast Eldar and Astartes are. Do you even know what microseconds are? Because if you don't, it's pointless talking to you as you cannot actually grasp the point and why Astartes have to be just as fast as Eldar in order to actually fight them 1 on 1.
Also, more speed/melee quotes.
The bout lasted sixteen minutes. That in itself would have made it one of the longest sparring sessions any of them had ever known. What made it more remarkable was the fact that in that time, there was no pause, no hesitation, no cessation. Erebus and Lucius flew at one another, and rang blows off one another’s blades at a rate of three or four a second. It was relentless, extraordinary, a dizzying blur of dancing bodies and gleaming swords that rang on and on like a dream.” / Horus Rising, p.588 - **
“As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.” / The Space Wolf Omnibus, p.269 - **
“Amakyre dodged backwards and let himself fall from the platform rather than face Veq’s blade, honed from the heart of a star and white-hot to all but Veq himself.
Gunfire erupted again from below. Veq swatted away a score of bullets from the Obliterator and caught three more with his free hand, throwing them back down to the floor of the bridge with a curse. The young one, the most dangerous, fired a well-aimed shot at his temple, but Veq flicked his head to the side and the silenced bolt flittered past him.
Veq took two steps and leapt, dropping through the lattice of bullet trails to land directly in front of the Obliterator whose every weapon was blazing at him from point-blank range. The star-sword cut through the air as Veq met every bullet, sending a sparkling fan of deflected fire in every direction.
The hulking Obliterator reeled as several of its own bullets punched through its biomechanical body. The flesh of one arm became fluid, extruded, and solidified into a blade of bone with gnawing teeth at the cutting edge. Veq ducked the first blow and parried the second, shearing the first blade in two as a barbed whip, tipped with a lamprey-like mouth, lashed from the Obliterator’s other arm. Veq grabbed the lash, wrapped it round his fist, and used it to swing the Obliterator hard into the wall by the doorway.
Armour split and cracked. Corrupted blood spilled. Veq paused to dodge more bolter fire from the other Word Bearers who were falling back through the doorway.” / Daemon Worldgons, p.472 - **
Astartes have to be just as fast as Eldar to engage them in melee, a gap in reflexes in a swordfight between two human combatants might be amendable, but in the case of the Eldar (who can get really lulzy by doing things like dodge lasguns, bolters, etc), it would be like trying to kill Neo with a normal human in the Matrix. The attacker would simply be moving in slow motion to the perception of Neo/Eldar, allowing them to easily dodge every blow and round fired. Plus Astartes have to make up for their bulk, that while they wear power armor like a second skin due tot he black carapace, they still weigh over 300 kilos and suffer limited mobility in tight areas. Yet they still beat Eldar in melee battle.
This is mere speculation.
A couple years ago, some guy at my school beat the hell out of some really fast dark skinned dude. You don't have to be the fastest to win in melee. As I have mentioned, a normal SM may be slower than an Eldar warrior, but they have the strength and toughness to make up, not to mention great armour.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 19:43:21
"Glory to the Iron father!"
2014/07/25 19:53:55
Subject: Re:Single combat: Astartes vs. Inquisitor
The Cain books are a gak source of any information-
2a) They widely contradict other information, especially Sister of Battle and Genestealers.
2b) They're a satire of 40k, begging the question of their validity.
2c) Cain was probably a Living Saint, IE empowered by the GEOM and by no means an example of an average human being.
3) Khorne Berserkers are only example of extremely gakky combatants, considering the entire style of Khorne is 'raging berserker', meaning they probably telegraph their moves and probably lack any form of combat to begin with.
They are about as accurate as any other BL publication, satire or no.
The one area in which a Single Sororitas is depicted is often a source of huge debate and criticism – unfairly in mu view – compare that particular character to those in the excellent fiction By Sister Sydney which is also better than many BL works but shows the Imperium in a different more Abnett / Mitchel way….. EVERY other depcition of the Sororitas is pretty much exactly what you would expect - fanatical, skilled and formidable warriors - maybe a bit too fanaitical in some cirmcumstances but all true believers and who are hugely respected by everyone, except the in universe author - and thats only because they tend to be too keen to get into combat and drag him in.
Genestealers - what element is wrong in the Cain novels?
Cain may have been a Living Saint - if the GEOM has a sense of humour - which is unlikely but possible - note that both Cain and Amberely are believers in Him.
Khorne Beserkers are horrobly scary to fight I would imagine - they don't care whose blood flows and are fast, strong, clad in power armour and retain formidable CC skills.
Eldar and Genestealers are extremely quick and agile, some Astartes can match them, most can't IMO
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/25 19:54:38
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Have you read the fluff regarding the Space Marines ''blasting there way through Commaragh''? Because if you have, you are either purposely leaving out the fact that Vect was helping them out the entire time to make the Marines seem better or you didn't read into the inferences. Everything, and i mean everything, that played out well for the Marines was Vects doing.
The gate that allowed the other Space Marines in (over 500, that's half a chapter!) was left open, it's guards slain and the door was locked so it couldn't be shut. In essence, the other Space Marines wouldn't of even got INTO Commaragh without Vects say so.
Each of the Archon's leading the defense against the Marines was assassinated one by one during the battle. A ''Stay Dark Lance beam'' hit an Archon as he was ''Rampaging'' through the Marine lines killing with every thrust of his powered blade, which also stands testament to how Eldar *can* go against Marines. Admittedly he was an Archon, but they are no better then other Dark Eldar, only more trained.
When the Wyches got involved the Space Marines were torn to shreds, ''Losing half there number''. Lelith was also said to of carved apart the Marines (With nothing but plain, simple Knives) as''Warriors fell apart around her'. Then, as the Space Marines fell back, instead of giving chase and probably inflicting heavy casualties, the Wyches turned around and murdered another rival Archon.
Then Vect *let* the Marines get away with ''The Haywire fields that shackled the imperial craft were disengaged one by one'' and even had his own men Fire upon the intercepting Dark Eldar squadrons to force them to back off.
It really annoys me that people use this example quite often to justify how good Marines are, when in actual fact, the Marines were losing, very badly, until Vect let them escape. I am not sure about the other fluff from Black Library but at least in this, you are drastically over selling your beloved Space Marines.
Also, For the Record, The Path series was a terrible representation of the Craft World Eldar. Gav Thorpe portrayed the craftworld as having a population in the thousands, then said in an interview that he imagined that was how many Eldar lived on a ''Large'' Craftworld such as Aliatoc. This is quite simply wrong, otherwise that would put the entire racial population at low millions, while Dark Eldar reside in the Trillions! So surfice to say, while most Black Library books are bad at there portrayals, the Path series was decidedly terrible. And a boring series to boot...
(Sorry for off topic)
2014/07/25 20:10:13
Subject: Re:Single combat: Astartes vs. Inquisitor
One of the mopre impressive ellemtsn of that incident in Commaragh was how long the Astartes aboard the captured Strike Cruiser held out - oh its definatly a master play by Vect though Risky but beautifully executed.
An Archon is to be fair soo much more than a run of the mill vat born DE warrior....
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
A couple years ago, some guy at my school beat the hell out of some really fast dark skinned dude. You don't have to be the fastest to win in melee. As I have mentioned, a normal SM may be slower than an Eldar warrior, but they have the strength and toughness to make up, not to mention great armour.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Have you read the fluff regarding the Space Marines ''blasting there way through Commaragh''? Because if you have, you are either purposely leaving out the fact that Vect was helping them out the entire time to make the Marines seem better or you didn't read into the inferences. Everything, and i mean everything, that played out well for the Marines was Vects doing.
The gate that allowed the other Space Marines in (over 500, that's half a chapter!) was left open, it's guards slain and the door was locked so it couldn't be shut. In essence, the other Space Marines wouldn't of even got INTO Commaragh without Vects say so.
Each of the Archon's leading the defense against the Marines was assassinated one by one during the battle. A ''Stay Dark Lance beam'' hit an Archon as he was ''Rampaging'' through the Marine lines killing with every thrust of his powered blade, which also stands testament to how Eldar *can* go against Marines. Admittedly he was an Archon, but they are no better then other Dark Eldar, only more trained.
When the Wyches got involved the Space Marines were torn to shreds, ''Losing half there number''. Lelith was also said to of carved apart the Marines (With nothing but plain, simple Knives) as''Warriors fell apart around her'. Then, as the Space Marines fell back, instead of giving chase and probably inflicting heavy casualties, the Wyches turned around and murdered another rival Archon.
Then Vect *let* the Marines get away with ''The Haywire fields that shackled the imperial craft were disengaged one by one'' and even had his own men Fire upon the intercepting Dark Eldar squadrons to force them to back off.
It really annoys me that people use this example quite often to justify how good Marines are, when in actual fact, the Marines were losing, very badly, until Vect let them escape. I am not sure about the other fluff from Black Library but at least in this, you are drastically over selling your beloved Space Marines.
Also, For the Record, The Path series was a terrible representation of the Craft World Eldar. Gav Thorpe portrayed the craftworld as having a population in the thousands, then said in an interview that he imagined that was how many Eldar lived on a ''Large'' Craftworld such as Aliatoc. This is quite simply wrong, otherwise that would put the entire racial population at low millions, while Dark Eldar reside in the Trillions! So surfice to say, while most Black Library books are bad at there portrayals, the Path series was decidedly terrible. And a boring series to boot...
(Sorry for off topic)
I apologize if I assume, but I believe you inferred an Archon is just an Eldar warrior with better training? Archon are much better than that dude. They are ruthless unrivalled warriors and often have to fend off dozens of assassinations in their lifetime. You don't become an Archon without extreme and brilliant combat finesse. I'm sure an Archon could cut down SM's by the dozens but regular Dark Eldar wouldn't come close to that.
My opinion: throw 40 marines at 100 DE, it's a fight.
A couple years ago, some guy at my school beat the hell out of some really fast dark skinned dude. You don't have to be the fastest to win in melee. As I have mentioned, a normal SM may be slower than an Eldar warrior, but they have the strength and toughness to make up, not to mention great armour.
Was, was that part really relevant?
Oh, so now you think I'm racist? Dark skinned people on average are faster than most other people. But let's not veer off topic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 20:18:54
[edit]Removed the sarcastic comments that were uncalled for. I got irritated at what I think is a constant overstatement of the marines capacities, which was a bit childish from me. But I still think you are overestimating the marine's reflexes here. Marines are fast, faster than unmodified humans (which, frankly, Inquisitors usually are not), and therefore way faster than they look. But they look slow. They are gorilla-like behemoths. Eldar are also way faster than they look, but eldar look fast. A fight between an eldar fighter and a marine should look like that. If only because it is way more interesting than “Since I was both stronger, tougher, faster, more skilled, and more intelligent than the eldar, I just beat her to death in two seconds”.
You really want to support a comic where a Terminator tanks TONS of Dark Eldar fire and then oneshots them in return with his heavy flamer?
Interesting.
I do quite like that comic though. They got Marine size right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/25 21:20:21
Wyzilla wrote: 2) The Cain books are a gak source of any information-
2a) They widely contradict other information, especially Sister of Battle and Genestealers.
Yeah, like every book do. You just happen not to like Cain's version.
Wyzilla wrote: 2b) They're a satire of 40k, begging the question of their validity.
They are humorous and satirical story set in 40k, but they happen in 40k, not in a world fashioned as a satire of 40k.
Wyzilla wrote: 2c) Cain was probably a Living Saint, IE empowered by the GEOM and by no means an example of an average human being.
I think that theory is ridiculous because there is nothing backing it. Some people have different interpretation of the relative power level of stuff in 40k. And some people that write official stuff disagree with you. Just deal with it rather than invent crazy theory to rationalize this back into your interpretation.
Else I am going to invoke godly intervention in every quote from Black Library that you use, ever. Yeah, I can do that too.
Wyzilla wrote: 3) Khorne Berserkers are only example of extremely gakky combatants, considering the entire style of Khorne is 'raging berserker', meaning they probably telegraph their moves and probably lack any form of combat to begin with.
Uh, yeah, certainly…
That just goes against everything I ever read about Khorne and its followers, I guess.
Wyzilla wrote: Y'know, if you actually don't know anything about a subject, maybe you shouldn't even talk about?
Thank you for that sound advice.
Wyzilla wrote: The problem also that you don't even seem to comprehend on any level is how fast Eldar and Astartes are. Do you even know what microseconds are? Because if you don't, it's pointless talking to you as you cannot actually grasp the point and why Astartes have to be just as fast as Eldar in order to actually fight them 1 on 1.
Yeah, great, the problem is that I am too stupid. Therefore I do not understand the intricate arcane of physics of some made-up scy-fy magic universe. Sorry about that. Good thing you actually know the truth, and therefore can enlighten me about, well, the fact a microsecond is 10^-6 second. Which changes everything, really.
Mr Morden wrote: Genestealers - what element is wrong in the Cain novels?
Cain kill some. Maybe his companion do so too. You cannot have that, only marines are allowed to kill genestealer .
Lord Tarkin wrote: Oh, so now you think I'm racist? Dark skinned people on average are faster than most other people. But let's not veer off topic.
Never heard about that, and it seems very dubious. Extremely dubious.
I mean, especially since there are so many different types that would qualify as “dark skinned”…
Ashiraya wrote: You really want to support a comic where a Terminator tanks TONS of Dark Eldar fire and then oneshots them in return with his heavy flamer?
Not a terminator. Au tauminator.
I said that part was a good representation of how a fight between a dark eldar and a marine should go: one is way faster and more skilled, the other one is much tougher and stronger. Do you disagree? Or do you want to infer from that that I consider everything ever portrayed in this unofficial webcomic as the only official canon? I am not sure what you mean here.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I said that part was a good representation of how a fight between a dark eldar and a marine should go: one is way faster and the other one is much tougher and stronger.
That is my opinion, that is what is explicitly said by Sergent Johnson in the comic, and therefore that comic is a very good illustration of how I consider thing. But you are of course entitled to disagree with me and the unofficial webcomic.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/07/25 22:40:49
Subject: Re:Single combat: Astartes vs. Inquisitor
Does not almost every “debate” in 40k Background amounts to that anyway?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Depends on the Inquisitor. Not all inquisitors are martial, not all martial inquisitors are duelists, etc.
When confronted face to face with a Space Marine, some inquisitors would become splack in an instant (and it's unrealistic to expect a hunched over old man with a keyboard for hands to try anyway) to try to face said soldier to begin with),while others would butcher the Astartes with casual ease. Still others would struggle against them and maybe lose, maybe win. Others would put up a hopeless fight, while others would have an assured, but hard victory.
Inquisitors are, as a general rule, quite unique in nature.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/25 22:59:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
That is my opinion, that is what is explicitly said by Sergent Johnson in the comic, and therefore that comic is a very good illustration of how I consider thing. But you are of course entitled to disagree with me and the unofficial webcomic.
Sergeant Johnson was not facing your average Deldar, either.
Melissia wrote: Depends on the Inquisitor. Not all inquisitors are martial, not all martial inquisitors are duelists, etc.
When confronted face to face with a Space Marine, some inquisitors would become splack in an instant (and it's unrealistic to expect a hunched over old man with a keyboard for hands to try anyway) to try to face said soldier to begin with),while others would butcher the Astartes with casual ease.
)
Risky but beautifully executed.
