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I think it really depends on your army setup. If it's purely HQ dependent...

Scars give you H&R, Iron Hands give you FNP 6+ and IWND, Salamanders gives you a free master-craft on one weapon, UM unlocks Tigurius.

But I strongly suggest you base tactics on your army over your HQ.

I concur with obsidian. tactics over toys.


althought thats a but hypocritical because I mainly use the Raptor Tactics for Issoman as he brings a lot, and I love the chapter tactics they use. (btw, it's a FW chapter. look it up to find out!)

if your going with HQ's, go with one that makes you smile and think about the havoc you could wreak with him, then do that.

I play Fists, but Chapter Tactics in a bubble id have to say that Iron Hands are prolly the best.

Of the supplements and defaults. Iron hands is the most tournament equipped I feel with white scars and sentinels of terra being next in line. Salamanders and um bring up the rear.

If we are to include the other three books I'm going to omit sw's cause their about to get a new book. I'd place dark angel next to smurfs or just barely above them and blood angels are the bottom of the pile.

Blood angels are definitely better than salamanders and raven guard, though worse than the top dogs like fists, scars and hands.

Ultramarines are middle of the pack, but templar got a huge boost this edition from army wide adamantium will

blood angels have chapter tactics? thats new.

I like ultramarines the best. most versatile and can be the most powerful.

We started including other books. Apparently this is a comparison of all marines now.

Raven guard and salamanders for the win!!!!

As said, I'd define the tactics according to the chosen HQ.
Tigurius is great these days as is a CM on a bike.

 raiden wrote:
blood angels have chapter tactics? thats new.

I like ultramarines the best. most versatile and can be the most powerful.

Red Fury and Decent of Angels are more or less chapter tactics for them.
Personally, I'd rather have Strike from the Shadows and Winged Deliverance.

As an ultramarines player I have to say the smurfs have the best HQ choice in the codex and probably the best alpha strike with a strong buff to tactical squads, however they aren't the best. I rank them just under white scars which has access to something all marines need, hit and run. For just 65 points you can buy a white scars librarian and give any of your units hit and run. Having one of the best special rules in the codex on immobile 3+ save bodies which are prone to getting tarpitted is very valuable. Iron hands and sentinels are tied with ultramarines, with iron hands maybe being the better of the three with 7th edition vehicle buffs, but I'm biased so ultramarines are second.

Would you say black templar, or blood angels are last?

This discussion has come up a lot at my FLGS. I think a general consensus has been reached and based on the rules alone this order is formed

1) Iron Hands
2) White Scars
3) Salamanders
4) Ultra Smurfs
5) Imperial Fists
6) Raven Guard

Now factor in the special characters they unlock then it looks like this:

1) Ultra Smurfs
2) Imperial Fists
3) Salamanders
4) Iron Hands
5) White Scars
6) Raven Guard

I think the love for Salamanders may be my fault as I have been running a very successful Drop Pod list for a while and it has gained some 'rep'. The lack of love for Raven Guard is only heightened by Shrike AP3 (although he at least has a chance of AP2 with rending) and the worsening of stealth in 7th.

Ultras, no doubt, unlock the best characters. Be it the beatstick of Papa Smurf, Tiggy or even Telion. They get the Lion's share (even Sicarius has a place if you want a reserves list). Lysander is brilliant and I don't mind admitting Vulkan has slipped a little from the heights of 6th. Iron hands speak for themselves with regards to characters (spoiler alert: they have none) however have the most 'Jack of all trade' tactic as most armies include troops and tanks.

White Scars are a bone of contention. They were probably the strongest in 6th, however the jink change has hit them hard in my opinion. Khan adds the nice scout move, however is a little on the squishy side, he has the bonus of being quite cheap though.

This may look like I hate Imperial Fists, far from it. Lysander is amazing. However the Bolter Drill just doens't do it for me. You will kill 1.8% more marines with bolters than a non-bolter-drill army. (By comparison a Vulkan'd melta will kill 18.9% more marines) and while better Devastator Centurions is nice, you're doing it wrong if you don't take Grav Cents anyway.

Idk, Khan for White Scars is normally underrated .... I run Khan, 5 grav command squad, 30 bikes with sgt combis / 2 specials (3 squads grav, 3 squads melta - and 2 storm talons or thunderfire cannons at 1500 points), and I normally line them up on my deployment line and scout move a full 12" to the center of the board. being able to scout move 12" followed by a 12" move (24 if turboboosting) is huge.

It really depends on how you want to play your army .... if you want to go full bikes its White Scars hands down, a majority drop pod list its Salamanders with Vulkan (Space Wolves aren't C:SM but work well also), if your not sure and looking for an all around good one Iron Hands.

Honestly when your looking to put a army together, pick the one that is the most appealing fluff wise since codexes change - or paint your army up how you want and use "counts as" so if you don't like the changes that a new dex makes you can swap to another chapter (or DA / BA / SW). My bike army are painted up like an Unforgiven DA chapter, but since they aren't an offical chapter I could use them with DA / BA / Codex Marines.

random_man wrote:
This discussion has come up a lot at my FLGS. I think a general consensus has been reached and based on the rules alone this order is formed

1) Iron Hands
2) White Scars
3) Salamanders
4) Ultra Smurfs
5) Imperial Fists
6) Raven Guard

Now factor in the special characters they unlock then it looks like this:

1) Ultra Smurfs
2) Imperial Fists
3) Salamanders
4) Iron Hands
5) White Scars
6) Raven Guard

I think the love for Salamanders may be my fault as I have been running a very successful Drop Pod list for a while and it has gained some 'rep'. The lack of love for Raven Guard is only heightened by Shrike AP3 (although he at least has a chance of AP2 with rending) and the worsening of stealth in 7th.

Ultras, no doubt, unlock the best characters. Be it the beatstick of Papa Smurf, Tiggy or even Telion. They get the Lion's share (even Sicarius has a place if you want a reserves list). Lysander is brilliant and I don't mind admitting Vulkan has slipped a little from the heights of 6th. Iron hands speak for themselves with regards to characters (spoiler alert: they have none) however have the most 'Jack of all trade' tactic as most armies include troops and tanks.

White Scars are a bone of contention. They were probably the strongest in 6th, however the jink change has hit them hard in my opinion. Khan adds the nice scout move, however is a little on the squishy side, he has the bonus of being quite cheap though.

This may look like I hate Imperial Fists, far from it. Lysander is amazing. However the Bolter Drill just doens't do it for me. You will kill 1.8% more marines with bolters than a non-bolter-drill army. (By comparison a Vulkan'd melta will kill 18.9% more marines) and while better Devastator Centurions is nice, you're doing it wrong if you don't take Grav Cents anyway.

I like running Sicarius for all the tactical buffs he provides. One tac squad can infiltrate, you get +1 to reserve rolls, and everyone uses his leadership of 10 for morale and pinning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seeing as we're already talking about SM, anyone want to take a look at my Ultramarines list?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607069.page

Clearly, the Exorcists have the best chapter tactics, as they can choose to use whichever one they want at the start of each game.

As a Red Scorpions player, I find them to be less than impressive. The Red Hunters have a pretty nifty set of chapter tactics.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Blood angels are definitely better than salamanders and raven guard, though worse than the top dogs like fists, scars and hands.

Ultramarines are middle of the pack, but templar got a huge boost this edition from army wide adamantium will

I would take Sallies over BA any day of the week. As for Raven Guard, I'm inclined to vote BA

 Feasible wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Blood angels are definitely better than salamanders and raven guard, though worse than the top dogs like fists, scars and hands.

Ultramarines are middle of the pack, but templar got a huge boost this edition from army wide adamantium will

I would take Sallies over BA any day of the week. As for Raven Guard, I'm inclined to vote BA

I play BA, I would MUCH rather get my HoW after moving 12 in the move phase.........

that said, neither are very juicy. (red thirst SUCKS, except when It gives my devs fearless. that's the only time I ever found it useful)

 raiden wrote:

 Feasible wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Blood angels are definitely better than salamanders and raven guard, though worse than the top dogs like fists, scars and hands.

Ultramarines are middle of the pack, but templar got a huge boost this edition from army wide adamantium will

I would take Sallies over BA any day of the week. As for Raven Guard, I'm inclined to vote BA

I play BA, I would MUCH rather get my HoW after moving 12 in the move phase.........

that said, neither are very juicy. (red thirst SUCKS, except when It gives my devs fearless. that's the only time I ever found it useful)

I run my BA as ravenguard. Being able to use the jump pack to move and assault means you're averaging a 21" charge. That's massive. And doing hammer of wraith hits as well.
And gaining stealth on turn 1.
And scouting everything that isn't in a jump pack.
Furious charge from the priests are good; but the extra charge range means more guys make it into combat, which is better than the expensive feel no pain.
Seriously, how is 6 scouting Dreadnoughts with stealth on turn 1 not awesome? You could even run them all as Ironclad for a scouting wall of AV13 beat-stick, with tons of S10 AP1 attacks at init 4.

-Matt

I tend to run Fists, I see to roll and inordinate amount of 1's though..!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Would you say black templar, or blood angels are last?

Having played against both I would say neither. Blood angels are middle of the road and only got better in 7th. And black Templars can take land raiders with their troop choices as dedicated transports (trust me that's scary) also they have marine blob squads. If I had to rank everyone minus space wolves it would look like this.

1. White Scars: they are the most mobile army by far and make the best allies for anyone who doesn't want to get locked into combat. To be fair they don't have offensive capabilities but with that versatile marine dex they don't need to. Bikes are still good this edition and scouting rhinos are nasty.

2. Ultramarines: with an unbelievable alpha strike, awesome characters, and buffs to troops choices the smurfs play an amazing objective game and really reward an intelligent marines player. They are kind of one dimensional because you need to rely on bodies over other things to make their tactics useful, and also in smaller point games they tend to fall off.

3. Irons hands: the best defensive marine army that I feel let's you bring all the stuff you want without worrying about all your troops dying. They work great now in mech lists and running 6 ironclads in pods with a master of the forge is no fun for any list right now.

4. Blood angels: I feel like the space vampires with their Baal vehicles and free pods really can perform well in this objective centric meta. Vehicles are harder to kill, troops in pods are valuable, and an army that no one faces can claim some wins. Also they have some cool HQs.

5. Salamanders: These pod loving pyros really do dominate certain armies completely. If your army depends on a troop blob protecting big vehicles, or transport spam, or any Ork list your salamanders have an easy win. The problem with this army and it's CT I feel are both the ability of any opponent to cleverly deploy against you, other pod armies, or mobile armies. Salamanders are very pod dependent and if that alpha strike fails you are in deep trouble.

6. Dark angels: the only reason why I put them here is scouting bikes and azreal in blob squads. Everything else cam be done better by other armies. Oh, and deathwing aren't good.

7. Black Templars: objective secured land raiders and space marine blob squads combined with the buffs to challenges (you mean my character can now slaughter a shot ton of regular dudes with his challenge buffs too? Sweet!). Don't doubt a black templar army's ability to outlast yours, and they are particularly potent against demon knight dog spam armies.

8. Imperial fists: Bolter drill is lousy because Bolters are kind of lousy. The dev squad buff can be good, but how many points do you really want to invest into them? They can score and split into combat squads, but ultimately still only a maximum of 12 lascannon shots with only 8 hitting. Most vehicles are going to save a few away and most good armies are going to spam more then you can kill *cough wave serpents cough*.

9. Ravenguard: scouting rhinos! That's it... Oh and I guess kind of mobile scoring assault units.

Extra. Sentinels of terra belong in the top 4 but I've never played them and thus can't accurately rank them. Crimson fists are probably ranked at number 6 if you want to add them, only because they are strictly better then imperial fists but only if you take pedro. Sternguard and honor guard in pods are awesome especially with his banner buff. This is however really niche, risky, and expensive.

Disagree? I understand, just don't be a dick about it.

Worst chapter tactic > Fire Hawks, only special thing you get is +1 strength to all flamers the turn they arrive by deepstrike, meh

I can see IH being strong as you have increased ground holding potential with either UM tactical flexability or RG scout holding the second spot.

BT are by no means a bad chapter tactic to take, well ok its a pretty eh tactic, but the benefit of dedicated land raiders and crusader squads make up for that.

hyozanman wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Would you say black templar, or blood angels are last?

Having played against both I would say neither. Blood angels are middle of the road and only got better in 7th. And black Templars can take land raiders with their troop choices as dedicated transports (trust me that's scary) also they have marine blob squads. If I had to rank everyone minus space wolves it would look like this.

1. White Scars: they are the most mobile army by far and make the best allies for anyone who doesn't want to get locked into combat. To be fair they don't have offensive capabilities but with that versatile marine dex they don't need to. Bikes are still good this edition and scouting rhinos are nasty.

2. Ultramarines: with an unbelievable alpha strike, awesome characters, and buffs to troops choices the smurfs play an amazing objective game and really reward an intelligent marines player. They are kind of one dimensional because you need to rely on bodies over other things to make their tactics useful, and also in smaller point games they tend to fall off.

3. Irons hands: the best defensive marine army that I feel let's you bring all the stuff you want without worrying about all your troops dying. They work great now in mech lists and running 6 ironclads in pods with a master of the forge is no fun for any list right now.

4. Blood angels: I feel like the space vampires with their Baal vehicles and free pods really can perform well in this objective centric meta. Vehicles are harder to kill, troops in pods are valuable, and an army that no one faces can claim some wins. Also they have some cool HQs.

5. Salamanders: These pod loving pyros really do dominate certain armies completely. If your army depends on a troop blob protecting big vehicles, or transport spam, or any Ork list your salamanders have an easy win. The problem with this army and it's CT I feel are both the ability of any opponent to cleverly deploy against you, other pod armies, or mobile armies. Salamanders are very pod dependent and if that alpha strike fails you are in deep trouble.

6. Dark angels: the only reason why I put them here is scouting bikes and azreal in blob squads. Everything else cam be done better by other armies. Oh, and deathwing aren't good.

7. Black Templars: objective secured land raiders and space marine blob squads combined with the buffs to challenges (you mean my character can now slaughter a shot ton of regular dudes with his challenge buffs too? Sweet!). Don't doubt a black templar army's ability to outlast yours, and they are particularly potent against demon knight dog spam armies.

8. Imperial fists: Bolter drill is lousy because Bolters are kind of lousy. The dev squad buff can be good, but how many points do you really want to invest into them? They can score and split into combat squads, but ultimately still only a maximum of 12 lascannon shots with only 8 hitting. Most vehicles are going to save a few away and most good armies are going to spam more then you can kill *cough wave serpents cough*.

9. Ravenguard: scouting rhinos! That's it... Oh and I guess kind of mobile scoring assault units.

Extra. Sentinels of terra belong in the top 4 but I've never played them and thus can't accurately rank them. Crimson fists are probably ranked at number 6 if you want to add them, only because they are strictly better then imperial fists but only if you take pedro. Sternguard and honor guard in pods are awesome especially with his banner buff. This is however really niche, risky, and expensive.

Disagree? I understand, just don't be a dick about it.

DA have no CT, so they are out of the running (not even something remotely CT like)

BA- fast vehicles... meh, not bad. can be useful, but other than that meh. also can take Land raiders as DT. I would put them down near ravenguard or IF (SoT sup. book makes IF tactics much better)

Poor poor dark angels......oh how the mighty have fallen.....(eh lets face it, they were never mighty, they just keep falling)


Eh see what i did there

 Solosam47 wrote:
Poor poor dark angels......oh how the mighty have fallen.....(eh lets face it, they were never mighty, they just keep falling)


Eh sea what i did there

I shore did. ~

I feel like I need to elaborate on why I feel the army should dictate the tactics used over the HQ, and why a simple listing of the tactics does not do them justice. Bear in mind, I build an army from the tactics up. That is, I select my tactics, and build an army around them.

Lets say you build from an archetype. You want a gunline. And, for that matter, you've selected your units already. Is it a swarm of infantry behind an ADL? Maybe a bunker and trenchline from the Wall of Martyrs? Devastators are probably involved, and possibly scouts. UM tactics could help you here. TL your front lines for a turn, allow your devastators to reposition, and maybe even let you counter-assault when the enemy gets close. Fists gives you a consistent firepower boost all game long, and your devastators punch all the harder. Iron Hands give you... 6+ FNP. Which is okay? Raven Guard give you first turn stealth. Valuable if you face another gunline or advancing firepower, not much else. Scars give you no benefit here, really.

Lets say you brought a parking lot for your gunline. Suddenly Iron hands are looking very tasty indeed, giving a lot more durability to those Razorbacks and whatever else. Maybe you have a flanking force of bikes you plan to use as a counter-attack. You may look at Scars more seriously. Or you make use of flamer pods to whittle down the enemy before they make it to your line - well then Salamanders may be given more consideration.

Yes, there are compositions which, when combined with the proper Chapter tactics, are superior to all (or most) other combinations. And if that's the classification of the list, then it speaks the truth. But I hold that a list built around a Chapter Tactic will outperform one where the tactics chosen are an afterthought, or merely used to optimize an HQ.

hyozanman wrote:

4. Blood angels: I feel like the space vampires with their Baal vehicles and free pods really can perform well in this objective centric meta. Vehicles are harder to kill, troops in pods are valuable, and an army that no one faces can claim some wins. Also they have some cool HQs.

9. Ravenguard: scouting rhinos! That's it... Oh and I guess kind of mobile scoring assault units.

Disagree? I understand, just don't be a dick about it.

Ravenguard actually scout almost everything. They don't scout terminators, centurions, bikes and assault troops. They do scout everything else, including Fortifications and Lords of War.
If you want to run a close combat marine army, having almost your entire army start 12" closer is a big deal.
Think about starting a game with a pair of punisher cannons mid-field.

Pods aren't free, for BA. You start off by paying in inflated cost, and then get refunded part of the inflated cost.
5 assault marines with pod is 100. 5 tactical marines with pod is 105. Those extra 5 points buys you bolters instead of bolt pistols.
Fast Tanks is neat, but if you're just starting 12" closer, you don't really need it.
If you're running a shooty army, then you have better choices for Chapter Tactics than what BA brings you.

Nothing in 7th edition has covered the gap of 5+ feel no pain (instead of 4+) and no +1 init with furious charge.
And if you say, but vehicles are better, I'll point you at grey knight henchmen squads or Iron Hands.

-Edit: scratch most of that. Just noticed that Unlike Iron Hands, Raven Guard vehicles would have to have Chapter Tactics to be able to scout on their own. No wonder I never saw anybody doing that.

-Matt

It really depends on what you're running.

I've seen a very heavy razorback/rhino list (1500 pts) that was tons of light bodies, that did very well with Fists. It had 3 dev squads and tons of tacs, though, which let it use the tactics to full advantage. Lots of mixed attacks, but it felt to me that the tactics, though really strong in that list, start to fall off after 1500 or so points. Very tough for that value, though.


I currently use iron hands, which is nice for land raiders and a mix of armor (and FNP6+ can be nice, and can save your bacon at crucial moments with a little luck). It's a very defensive bonus, which I like, and I find it's pretty nice for maelstrom (what I mostly play), as it lets me secure better.


If you like maelstrom, you can do stupid things with lots of raiders as scoring troop vehicles using black templars. They also get adamantium will which is nice. I think the troop raiders is the most fun, though.


UM can be really strong tactically if you use the abilities just right, but it's hard to get a list that can utilize all of the abilities well (Calgar can make them better, of course, but I'm not a big fan of Calgar in any small points games).

If you like speed and general madness, White Scars are crazy strong and fun. Make sure you have the toys for them though (don't go bringin them with mere footsloggers). They're so mobile though that they can really reward players who like to control the flow of battle. In maelstrom they can be really insane.

Ravenguard are cool because of the scouting moves, and they can make assault marines better, which is nice if you like assault marines. Sadly, assault marines aren't the best, so it's not the most powerful tactic always. In low points values, though, I've seen them really shine. And they've got awesome lore, too.


Salamanders are awesome for their master crafted flamers can do damage reliably. As has been said, they love pods. He'stan is also a nice character, who really beefs up meltas.
The real problem, I find, is that if they don't do well in that initial attack phase, they are suddenly very near the enemy, and that leaves them vulnerable to assault. Most marines don't do so well with that (unless they're Assault termies, or certain characters). However, they can feel like a torrent of fire on turn one, and that's always super fun.

I can't speak on the other chapters, but I can say a little on some FW chapters I've fought.

Red Scorpions didn't impress me as much as I thought. The apothecaries are nice, as is Sevrin Loth. It's like a more infantry defensive iron hands. That being said, I prefer IWND on vehicles. If you're going a more infantry list, though, these guys can really shine, and be annoying as all heck to get rid of.

I only played against carcharadons once. Pros: angry space sharks that attack things in the face. Cons: space marines aren't the best at hitting things in the face. That being said, against certain armies they can really shine (and they're sharks. in space. Give them lascannons and they're sharks with frickin' laser beams).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

hyozanman wrote:

4. Blood angels: I feel like the space vampires with their Baal vehicles and free pods really can perform well in this objective centric meta. Vehicles are harder to kill, troops in pods are valuable, and an army that no one faces can claim some wins. Also they have some cool HQs.

9. Ravenguard: scouting rhinos! That's it... Oh and I guess kind of mobile scoring assault units.

Disagree? I understand, just don't be a dick about it.

Ravenguard actually scout almost everything. They don't scout terminators, centurions, bikes and assault troops. They do scout everything else, including Fortifications and Lords of War.
If you want to run a close combat marine army, having almost your entire army start 12" closer is a big deal.
Think about starting a game with a pair of punisher cannons mid-field.

Pods aren't free, for BA. You start off by paying in inflated cost, and then get refunded part of the inflated cost.
5 assault marines with pod is 100. 5 tactical marines with pod is 105. Those extra 5 points buys you bolters instead of bolt pistols.
Fast Tanks is neat, but if you're just starting 12" closer, you don't really need it.
If you're running a shooty army, then you have better choices for Chapter Tactics than what BA brings you.

Nothing in 7th edition has covered the gap of 5+ feel no pain (instead of 4+) and no +1 init with furious charge.
And if you say, but vehicles are better, I'll point you at grey knight henchmen squads or Iron Hands.

-Edit: scratch most of that. Just noticed that Unlike Iron Hands, Raven Guard vehicles would have to have Chapter Tactics to be able to scout on their own. No wonder I never saw anybody doing that.

-Matt

Feel no pain is better than it was in 5th, by a long shot. The changes to jump packs made up for the loss of init, because hammer of wrath is a thing. Ill take getting a 5+ save vs plasma, monstrous creatures and power weapons/rends over +1 init on the charge any day.

And fast is better than scout. Mobility is critical this edition, particularly with maelstrom missions. Scouting does not give you mobility beyond the first turn. Also Baal preds have both.

Red thirst rarely does anything. Descent of angels is amazing.

Finally, being able to take 2 special weapons and matching pistols in a drop pod as opposed to a special and combi makes BA assault marines an equal or better drop pod troop.