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PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.

Not the only way, but definitely the best way. If they rely on their own capital, it'll be much smaller scale than getting third party funding. If they borrow or get an investor then we'll get less value for our money as the investor will get the interest or otherwise get a cut. They may even have some say in the development of the product.

I much prefer when *we* get the "interest" on the investment, and *we* get a say in the production of the product. Patronage of great products is one of the best things that has happened lately and I'll happily pledge to help create good products if we reap the rewards.

 Pox Apostle wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.

Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.

It would be a pre-order if the product existed or was close to being finished. It's not - it's a year from completion. They still have to do all the tooling and write most or all of the scenarios and polish the rules, probably need to add a lot to them still too. Sorry mate, but Mantic is basically the prime example of a "kickstarter company" that uses it well. They develop an idea, work on it enough to make a prototype, put it on kickstarter to get the funding, then actually make the product.

PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

Probably easier than going to a bank...

PapaSoul wrote:

 Pox Apostle wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.

Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.

Based on every kickstarter threads in dakkadakka, I can honestly declare that 100% of kickstarters are actually against letter or spirit of kickstarting.

At least everyone get accused of that.

PapaSoul wrote:

 Pox Apostle wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.

Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.

They may be technically disguising a preorder, but it is still a true KS as Mantic will be using the funds gathered to add real stretch goals I'm sure, as they've done it with every project. We will get to a point where new models, new terrain, and other things are being created for KS backers and it will be solely because of the funds raised. I'm perfectly happy Mantic uses Kickstarter because they can gauge in real time the sales and potential sales of the product, thus allowing them to create some of those cool stretch goals that they would not have bothered to risk money on making if they didn't know what the audience for the game would be.

 Yonan wrote:
Did Mantic pull a raging heroes and incorrectly update a stretch goal value showing us the initial value before they jacked it up substantially? ; p

Yes. You should put your $250k infographic back up...

Hahaha damn, I removed it before I realized.

To be fair, the initial 225k graphic in the email was underneath a heading called $250,000 - Bonus Boss.

So it's not like they changed their minds... seems like they've had a couple of copy/paste errors.

They ARE struggling mightily with the updates lately. Someone has been staying up too late...

Or maybe even drinking a little on the job.

To be fair, I think the person running this for Mantic is doing a KS for the first time, all the others were run by James Hewitt if I'm not mistaken, and he has since vanished into the black hole that is the GW writers room.

Its not the end of the world. Just funny that it happened twice in a row. They fixed them both quickly.

People* Most of the team are KS veterans. One or two are newcomers. James M Hewitt is now a GW guy, but we never bring it up with him .

 squall018 wrote:
Its not the end of the world. Just funny that it happened twice in a row. They fixed them both quickly.

Gives us something to lollygag about if nothing else!

Speaking of James, I wonder how life at the Empire is treating him. Easy to forget decent people work there. *shock* maybe he was the one who came up with Murderfang!!

I get that putting the wrong value for the stretch goal was a mistake and frankly I don't care about them changing it but it was stupid to make the change. They're going to reach the larger stretch goal value anyway. Changing it just gives something negative for people to talk about.

I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.

It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.

I'll call GW out when they don't respect their customers, and I'll do the same to Mantic.

Premium Plastic is horsecrap, and they know it and anyone who has dealt with their PVC knows it.

Fake stretch goals (we need 25,000 dollars to allow you to purchase these models we already release for 25 more dollars!?!?!?!OMG!) are patronising, but yeah, I see that it probably works all the same. Lots of sales tactics are patronising but also work.

Still, if the miniatures approach the looks of the painted masters we're being shown, I will be very happy. A great diversity of undead options being brought together here. Shame the trolls are all one pose, I suppose. I'd like to use them in my KOW army and all of them holding a rock up like that is a bit lame.

It's interesting - I think Mantic is being quite honest in making this a board game KS rather than a board game KS that's really just there to expand their wargame. I was expecting them to add poses at some point, but they seem content with the 1-pose situation for now.

BTW, I imagine the point where they reach 'season 2' (another racial dungeon) is the point where we can tell what will actually come in the box. I thin that all the freebies from 'season 1' will be exactly what comes in the box.

Yeah, I mean it is a boardgame first, being able to use the minis in my undead army is just a bonus. Given my track record over the past few years I don't know when I'll be getting a game in with them anyway, so the point is probably moot

I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.

Stretch Goal Characters still to be revealed at:
I take special pleasure in pointing out to the hated ScarletSquig that the Lizardman and Satyr Force of Nature shape shifter are not one and the same.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2430/445605.page#7049942

1. Human, male Basilian Paladin w/ sword


2. Lizardman or Lizardperson for those ceaselessly whining about lack of a female miniatures. As if Dungeon Saga is the only source in the world for 28mm female fantasy miniatures

3. Satyr, male Force of Nature Shapeshifter w/staff

4. Human, female Basilian Sister w/ flail

5. Dwarf, male Engineer w/hammer

6. Halfling, female rogue

7. halfling? male fighter w/ 2 handed sword

8. Assassin, nothing is known if this is even a player character.

 Riquende wrote:

Sirio wrote:
. Also, 20K for 1 plastic dwarf king that should've been in the starter box to start with? NO.

Why should the undead dwarf king have been in the starter box? The 'Dwarf King' in the game's title is a different Dwarf King, the one who sent the adventurers on the quest.

My bad, you are right. (20K for one plastic mini is still dumb imo)

 Riquende wrote:

Sirio wrote:
Ghosts look OK. But 3 identical prepainted? And for a 25K stretch goal for what will be "premium" plastic? NO.

The ghosts are neither prepainted, nor premium plastic. They are probably identical, which I don't particularly like.

Your bad, their picture is crystal clear.

 Riquende wrote:
You know, it's fine to not like this, but making up stuff to complain about isn't cool, kids.

I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...
And yes, I do not really like this and unlike some newcomers I feel I got screwed over the KoW campaign, I even found it hard selling=dumping my stuff on eBay. So although I like their idea on a HeroQuest duplicate I'll be a very hard judge on any other Mantic KS (including this). As I said before I had little doubt this would easily fund...

 Pox Apostle wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.

I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.

There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.

Slightly weird agreeing with someone called Pox Apostle but hey ho!

I don't think people are aware just how hard it is to get funding as a small business at the moment. Getting a half a million quid off the bank is no easy feat, and even if you do, any delay to market, or any smaller than anticipated sales, and your company is gone, eaten by the debt, any assets sold off at 10p in the pound by the bank. It is a huge risk.

Getting money off kickstarter backers carries it's own risks and costs ofc, and a kickstartered project can still go to pieces, but knowing in advance the initial production/sales is huge, and KS backers are more forgiving of a slight delay than a bank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sirio wrote:
My bad, you are right. (20K for one plastic mini is still dumb imo)

Agreed on that, any stretch for optional things should be 5k max IMO. Even if that means 4 x 5k stretches rather than 1 x 20k stretch, it "feels" better.

Sirio wrote:

Your bad, their picture is crystal clear.

Nope, try again.



Coloured plastic is their term for 'board game plastic'. It's not 'restic' (premium plastic) and it's not prepainted, a dye is mixed into the PVC to produce a non-grey figure.

Oh, and on the probably [u](if that's what you meant), it's not 'crystal clear' that it will be 3 identical miniatures. It's worth bearing in mind that there is currently one 3D printed prototype per troop type, so when we see an image it's just the same figure in triplicate. I do think it's very likely they will 3 of the same figure, but I haven't seen anything confirming it definitely will be.

I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...

Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.

 Riquende wrote:

Sirio wrote:

Your bad, their picture is crystal clear.

Nope, try again.



Coloured plastic is their term for 'board game plastic'. It's not 'restic' (premium plastic) and it's not prepainted, a dye is mixed into the PVC to produce a non-grey figure.

I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...

Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.

Lol, those models look like three kids trying to sneak into an R rated movie

While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:

From the KS comments

Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!

There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough
>>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same.
There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason

So not $100 at retail then?

 Riquende wrote:

Sirio wrote:

Your bad, their picture (for the Ghosts) is crystal clear.

Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.

I'm getting tired of this and I'm sure so are you. There are 3 identical minis there. If you say it's not, then OK... whatever.

 Rolt wrote:
While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:

From the KS comments

Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!

There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough
>>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same.
There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason

So not $100 at retail then?

I don't see anywhere in there that this is less than 100$ MRSP, they just say it will come with less stuff in it at retail. That being said, we all know that no one is paying 100$ for this at retail one way or the other with eBay and miniature market etc. around.

It does surprise me that there will be less models in the retail version. Its seems hard to play a game against a Necromancer who can only control 2 skeletons at a time. There is still a lot more of this to go, and they have yet to say whats really in the base game / what the base game is. I guess we'll just have to wait it out.

 Rolt wrote:
While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:

From the KS comments

Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!

There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough
>>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same.
There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason

So not $100 at retail then?

I don't think that they want to tell people 'what will be at retail' because that avoids people saying 'I will wait for retail'. If none of these stretches are adding to the retail box and the retail box will be the default start-out components, that is a non-starter as a 100$ retail box. So if they told us what was in the retail, and the real cost of it, people might say 'eh... I will wait for retail'.

This is a strong difference from other KS which clearly outline what is retail box, what is add-ons and what is 'KS Swag'. You can always compare back to the retail box price for value, which right now leaves us comparing to other manufacturers because the retail release of this product is a question mark. If this is gonna be a 50$ retail game with 10$ add-ons, I can possibly wait until retail and not really miss much value and skip some of the trash sculpts I don't want. Allows me to see if the game is good and the minis end up serviceable for miniature gamers or not. By keeping that information hidden or ambiguous, they feed a 'Buy or die' frenzy which makes people either 'All In' or ''walk away'. That is a bad model IMHO and the frequent multi thousand dollar backslides I think confirm that.

The tactic of keeping people as confused as possible about every aspect seems to work for them and I guess they don't mind the blowback... so be it.

Sirio wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

Sirio wrote:

Your bad, their picture (for the Ghosts) is crystal clear.

Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.

I'm getting tired of this and I'm sure so are you. There are 3 identical minis there. If you say it's not, then OK... whatever.

Yes, that is picture of one miniature, photoshopped to appear 3 times. This is a likely indicator that there are 3 identical models. It is not proof of that.

Interesting selective quoting as well.