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 judgedoug wrote:

I think he means compatible, not the same.

 endtransmission wrote:
In some of the interviews they have talked about much thicker quality tiles, similar in print quality to the limited release Space Hulk or Descent.

How would they be compatible if one is much thicker than the other? Same width, possibly, compatible? Highly doubtful but I'll continue to lurk and make a decision to back or not towards the end.

Same way various editions of Space Hulk tiles are compatible? It's do-able but looks like crap.

Well the Alpha rules are out but it crashed the Mantic digital site

In the mean time here's the Beasts of War gameplay video (it's 56 minutes long)

http://www.beastsofwar.com/mantic-games/dungeon-saga-demo-game/

 judgedoug wrote:
Same way various editions of Space Hulk tiles are compatible? It's do-able but looks like crap.

Umm... ick. I don't own DKH so it won't be an issue but earlier it was said that the tiles would be of similar thickness and quality as Descent's and they piqued my curiosity/interest.

Hypothetically, you wouldn't need the old tiles anyways, as the new game is supposed to have recreations of the original DKH's scenarios.

You would then be able to build old scenarios out of new tiles. I think I might go get in a game on the old ones, just to remember what they're like.

 agnosto wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Same way various editions of Space Hulk tiles are compatible? It's do-able but looks like crap.

Umm... ick. I don't own DKH so it won't be an issue but earlier it was said that the tiles would be of similar thickness and quality as Descent's and they piqued my curiosity/interest.

Righto, so I guess the solution is don't mix and match the older crappy stuff with the newer D2E/SH3-style tiles

 judgedoug wrote:

Righto, so I guess the solution is don't mix and match the older crappy stuff with the newer D2E/SH3-style tiles

Ideal solution I'd say, now to wait in the shadows and see if it'll be possible...

Are Descent tiles really as thick as Space Hulk 3E tiles? I have SH but not Descent, but I had the impression that Descent was closer to board game board thickness (eg, the dreadball board), rather than being extra thick like Space Hulk.

Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.

Here is Jakes musings
http://quirkworthy.com/2013/02/26/clea-base-technology



And randomly a 6mm version.
http://miniaturereview.blogspot.com/2012/03/basing-miniatures-on-clear-bases.html

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc.

I quite agree, I recently got turned onto clear acrylic bases via the Battlesystems Kickstarter (their demo figs were mounted on clear acrylic) and bought a giant pile of them.

Has anyone been able to get to the alpha rules yet? I keep getting an error.

 judgedoug wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

guru wrote:

the Dwarf King Hold are 25mm square tiles, and Dungeon Saga use same tiles & compatible tiles with DKH according ronnie

Wait, what? That is some flimsy construction paper-like material, if they're using the same tiles, value just went down on this set.

I think he means compatible, not the same.

exact compatible, sorry for my poor english

space hulk 1 edition and Ultramarine boardgames use the same tiles but different thickness tiles.




Dungeon Saga use same tiles (with diferente artwork and thickness) of DKH

Mantic: we're providing downloadable maps that you can print. Drawn on paper is also fine, whatever works for you. Also, if you've DKH tiles, they will also work as the tiles are the same shapes. All of the art is new however.

Ah okay that makes sense. So same size, but new art and much thicker. Sounds good!

 judgedoug wrote:
Ah okay that makes sense. So same size, but new art and much thicker. Sounds good!

Works for me.

links to alpha rules

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mantic-downloads/DungeonSaga/mantic-dungeon-saga_tiles_01.pdf
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mantic-downloads/DungeonSaga/mantic-dungeon-saga_03.pdf
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mantic-downloads/DungeonSaga/mantic_necro_cards.pdf
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mantic-downloads/DungeonSaga/mantic_hero_cards.pdf

And the halfling is in. Paladin hero for 275,000

Dungeon Saga Tile Tester. Thanks to Alan for this one!
http://members.shaw.ca/everywheregames/tiler/

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.

Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.

 Yonan wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.

Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.

Where are you getting clear bases from?

I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).

Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet? I put my feedback up on the Mantic forum, but here are my intial thoughts if anyone around these parts would like to discuss the rules. I really want to like this game, but so far I have some concerns (the first point on my list below is by many degrees the largest one, and it also seems like the hardest one to tweak down the line when printing of tiles etc have started):

• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.

• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.

• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.

• I didn’t see it specified whether or not a model Breaking Away could follow that up with an action (eg. can you Break Away, and then cast a spell or shoot?). Since you’re getting hit with free attacks anyway, I think this should probably be allowed (if not it seems like a very bad choice to spend your entire turn on, as the monsters will probably just follow you when it’s their turn).

• I didn’t see it specified whether or not you’re allowed to move through a square occupied by a friendly model (ie. if a hero can move through another hero’s square, or a monster through another monster). Because of how crowded things might get, especially with those 1-square corridors, I definitely think this should be allowed; otherwise I could see it leading to a lot of situations where models are just stuck in place.

• Likewise, can you shoot through a square occupied by a friendly? Again, I think this should probably be allowed, or shooting might many times be impossible.

• Being at an attack penalty of -1 as soon you’ve gotten your first wound sounds a bit harsh. Given that heroes can take 5 wounds, going around with 1 or 2 seems like it should probably be the default in a game that’s tightly balanced to be as exciting as possible. I would probably skip the whole 'penalized when wounded' bit actually, in my opinion “death spiral” types of mechanics (ie. as you get wounded you also get weaker and more likely to get wounded again) usually don’t lead to fun results in game. In fact, I think the opposite type of mechanic is more fun; when things are looking really bad and you’re down to your last wound you get some kind of desperation bonus. Just thinking out loud here.

• I’m not sure I like the part with “In most scenarios the Heroes lose if one of them is crippled”, my worry being that it will lead to unheroic actions being the tactically most sound, with the fierce barbarian suddenly desperately needing to hide behind the wizard. When “all of them are crippled” sounds like it might be more fun (when the barbarian, dwarf and elf have all been slain, what little hope remains is left to the poor wizard with only 1 wound remaining… can he make it up those stairs and smash in that door?). Of course, this has the big drawback of opening up the possibility that a player sees his character killed off early, and then has to sit out the rest of the game. This is kind of a hard nut to crack I guess.

• It seems a bit excessive that you need to roll to break through all doors, it seems like it might lead to the occasional frustration when you fail a couple times in a row. I think it would be better if most doors could automatically be opened (it would still take an action), reserving the need to roll for those special scenario cases (like the end of that opening scenario). This point might not be a big deal if doors are very scarce; I’m thinking mostly in terms of larger scenarios with a lot of doors.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.

Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.

Where are you getting clear bases from?

Think these are the right items, they sell a variety of thickness and width, also colours. Back-2-Basix, you might know of them. $10 for "25mm Diameter 3mm Thick x 100 pieces Clear". Or $36 for 400. The ebay AU link might need to be changed if it screws with you.

 Baragash wrote:
I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).

what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?

 Trodax wrote:
Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet? I put my feedback up on the Mantic forum, but here are my intial thoughts if anyone around these parts would like to discuss the rules. I really want to like this game, but so far I have some concerns (the first point on my list below is by many degrees the largest one, and it also seems like the hardest one to tweak down the line when printing of tiles etc have started):

Some of these aren't in the written rules yet, but were covered in the playthrough video, so it looks like there is still some clarifications to do... including how long are the range templates? They aren't included in the downloads

 Trodax wrote:

• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.

I think the cramped nature of these initial scenarios is by design as not all dungeons are going to be wide open things. I think we'll see some advanced rules, or alternative characters that will have ways around the zone of control, opening up new opportunities and tactics. there's nothing stopping you using wider corridors and rooms later in your own scenarios

 Trodax wrote:

• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.

Currently I'm not seeing a problem with this mechanic as you're effectively removing wound opportunities that the limited dice pool offers. For example, if the skeleton only has 2 dice to defend with, but has armour 4, suddenly a chunk of those extra attack dice the heroes have are likely to be ignored. The concern I have is with the scalable nature of the wounds/death mechanic on larger/harder creatures later on.

 Trodax wrote:

• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.

That one surprised me too. Even the special powers don't really balance things out. Sure the Barbarian can deal out lots of damage for a turn, but the Dwarf can block off parts of the board for a turn without worrying about damage. I can only assume that they start to deviate in the advanced profile

 Trodax wrote:

• I didn’t see it specified whether or not a model Breaking Away could follow that up with an action (eg. can you Break Away, and then cast a spell or shoot?). Since you’re getting hit with free attacks anyway, I think this should probably be allowed (if not it seems like a very bad choice to spend your entire turn on, as the monsters will probably just follow you when it’s their turn).

It is not in the written rules, but according to the video Breaking Away uses up all your actions for that turn as the heroes tried to break away and attack someone else instead, only to find they couldn't.

 Trodax wrote:

• I didn’t see it specified whether or not you’re allowed to move through a square occupied by a friendly model (ie. if a hero can move through another hero’s square, or a monster through another monster). Because of how crowded things might get, especially with those 1-square corridors, I definitely think this should be allowed; otherwise I could see it leading to a lot of situations where models are just stuck in place.

Page 6 of the rules says no model may move through another model.

 Trodax wrote:

• Likewise, can you shoot through a square occupied by a friendly? Again, I think this should probably be allowed, or shooting might many times be impossible.

Page 10 says that a shot is blocked if the line of sight crosses another model. However, if you can draw an unobstructed line from any part of your base to any part of the target's base, you're all good for a shot.

 Trodax wrote:

• I’m not sure I like the part with “In most scenarios the Heroes lose if one of them is crippled”, my worry being that it will lead to unheroic actions being the tactically most sound, with the fierce barbarian suddenly desperately needing to hide behind the wizard. When “all of them are crippled” sounds like it might be more fun (when the barbarian, dwarf and elf have all been slain, what little hope remains is left to the poor wizard with only 1 wound remaining… can he make it up those stairs and smash in that door?). Of course, this has the big drawback of opening up the possibility that a player sees his character killed off early, and then has to sit out the rest of the game. This is kind of a hard nut to crack I guess.

I wasn't overly keen on that bit either. I remember a number of WQ adventures where two people died, but the rest carried on to victory. This may be a scenario specific ruling and probably one that we will choose to ignore if it makes it into the final rules.

 Trodax wrote:

• It seems a bit excessive that you need to roll to break through all doors, it seems like it might lead to the occasional frustration when you fail a couple times in a row. I think it would be better if most doors could automatically be opened (it would still take an action), reserving the need to roll for those special scenario cases (like the end of that opening scenario). This point might not be a big deal if doors are very scarce; I’m thinking mostly in terms of larger scenarios with a lot of doors.

Doors in the examples seem to be dividers between specific sections of the dungeon, so you only reveal the next section once the door is kicked in. I would imagine that these are considered to be locked/blocked doors, with all other transitions between tiles being unlocked doors so you can freely pass between.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

overtyrant wrote:

 Baragash wrote:
I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).

what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?

I use Loctite super glue on mine and havn't had any issues with misting

overtyrant wrote:

 Baragash wrote:
I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).

what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?

Blu-tac atm as I haven't decorated the integrated bases

I have been led to believe that Araldite or equivalent will dry clear which is what I was planning to use.

The narrowness of the corridors gives this game a "Space Hulk" like feel rather than a Warhammer Quest or D'n'D feel in my experience. Order of movement and exact positioning is a big part of the strategy.

However I agree not being able to move through other players in a multiplayer game is going to be a major source of irritation.

 Trodax wrote:
Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet?

No, but after reading your thoughts below they are the same mechanics as DKH.

• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.

In DKH this is a feature not a problem. Maps have multiple routes (so high speed models have a lot of options) and models with heavy duty shields can push other models back. It is more tactical play than swirling melee. It is a designer choice or feature leading to part of the attraction if you like that sort of game

• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.

I like it, many don't though, they prefer the opposed successes method.

The wonky results are deliberate, meant to reflect some creatures ability to just crush (dust for skeletons?) others,especially if outnumbered.

• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.

In the original games mv 6 is a big problem in many of the scenarios. Means you tend to commit to only one route and have to bash through. The armour/dice is not actually that great an impact. Essentially only 5's and 6's can hurt him, but an outnumbered wounded dwarf is rolling 3 dice vs a couple of skellies rolling 2 each and those 6's might well hurt...

Wonder if at this point they should make the original DKH rules free for people to play.

Apparently the missing range rulers are 4.5 and 8.5 inches respectively

I remember DKH feeling very much like Space Hulk minus bolters, where there were multiple choke points and areas I had to cover, and it was all about controlling avenues and not getting surrounded. It doesn't play like the D'n'D boardgame at all really.

It will be interesting to see how they branch out from these rules to make a campaign system though- the stats there are pretty crude, I can't imagine much granularity. That's not a bad thing for a fast playing board game, but I do wonder if the rules will be an issue for the campaign section.

The OP is a bit out of date, ScarletSquig must be busy