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Funny thing is when I saw it, I assumed they had gotten permission, and wondered why there was no mention of "Codex" or "The Guild" in the character description. I guess we now know...

 Azazelx wrote:
Ahtman - oh no, for feth's sake no. Not that old argument again.

Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.

 Azazelx wrote:
And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.

And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.

 Azazelx wrote:
It just seems like it's going to be many times easier logistically.

I have no doubt, but it still doesn't seem like investing in a company as much as it just pre-ordering from one that doesn't even really need Kickstarter.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.

And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.

You don't see how pre-ordering a video game that is 90% done it different to backing a tabletop game that is 20% done?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Ahtman - oh no, for feth's sake no. Not that old argument again.

Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.

 Azazelx wrote:
And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.

And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.

 Azazelx wrote:
It just seems like it's going to be many times easier logistically.

I have no doubt, but it still doesn't seem like investing in a company as much as it just pre-ordering from one that doesn't even really need Kickstarter.

Without getting into a huge back-and-forth with you on this, it comes down to a belief. You appear to believe that Mantic have the liquid assets to turn this into a retail game with all of the crap included. Fair enough. It's just that I do not believe that they have the liquid funds to do it. My comments and bitching about "fake stretch goals" are to do with them knowing that X, Y and Z will be included in the box, and also with them lowballing the funding amount in turn (when it will probably cost $200-300k for them to actually make this game, and they know it - not $50k).

I thought parodies of characters were allowed under fair use?

I don't see where the parody element starts on the pic and character they showed. It just looked like (an unlicenced) Felecia Day/Codex with a slightly different name which I assumed was the name of the "real" codex (it's been a long time since I watched The Guild)...

Yeah didn't seem like a parody to me. Plus there's also wanting to maintain good will with a great bunch of people.

 Ahtman wrote:


Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.

Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?

I can sympathize over the cleric thing. I mean it is pretty generic. Of course also it seems recognisable, but that can extend to many other products. The same sketch in different colours would probably have been alright, a different sketch in the same colours would probably have made everyone else think of it as well.

I am excited for this game. Let me say that right now; I am glad Mantic is making this, ecstatic that they are using crowdfunding to make it the best game it can be (trolls notwithstanding), and I look forward to playing it with my more patient friends and family.

I have no doubt that this game will be successful. It will obviously be around for years and years and years, which is a big problem for this campaign. I will probably be able to get a great deal from Miniature Market or FRP Games or even Amazon if I can wait--and as a multiple KS backer, I can wait. I already have a bunch of other games, Mantic games, that I haven't had time to play, so I see no reason to rush into this one. I'll probably still be working on my KoW and Deadzone minis by the time DS hits retail, and I will have only missed out on a few resin exclusives apparently. Mantic is almost a victim of their own success here.

Of course, this game doesn't exist in a vacuum. With upcoming kickstarters for Minion Games' plastic goblins, Bones CAV (another one to wait for retail on), Dungeon Crawler's 'Bonesiumish' cavalry, as well as upcoming retail blockbusters like Star Wars Armada, Dropzone fleet battles/plastics, Perry/Fireforge/Shieldwolf/Dreamforge/Kingdom Death plastics, etc., etc., Mantic just isn't fighting hard enough for my dollars. They have certainly won a prized spot on my future Amazon wishlist, but they aren't going to see money from me in a while unless they blow me away. And this KS has fallen far short of that. Besides the Stretch Goal and Stretch Goal Add On joy, there is the problem that the sculpts look decent, but not great. More skeletons and zombies? Mantic trolls? $25 for 4 Mantic-quality miniatures? Guess I better buckle the feth up for this beast. $100 is a great sweet spot pledge level, and probably the best idea Mantic's had in this kickstarter, but there needs to be some sweet to make it a sweet spot. And it just isn't there.

 Daedleh wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:


Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.

Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?

Hey I think you missed the point as it went right passed you; you can sleep with all the guys at Mantic and it doesn't change anything about what is going on. I haven't even said anything bad about the company nor have I told anyone not to drop money on it. In fact I have even stated it was a good deal. They may not be the richest company, but neither are they a scrappy unknown trying to get their foot in the door either. You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out. They have found a business model that works for them front loading pre-orders to pay for the project through KS, and I don't begrudge them for finding a successful model, but neither will I delude myself that it is something else either.

 Ahtman wrote:
You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out..

And yet, you don't see them bringing out half a dozen full featured new gaming systems either. Do you think there could be a link?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:


Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.

Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?

Hey I think you missed the point as it went right passed you; you can sleep with all the guys at Mantic and it doesn't change anything about what is going on. I haven't even said anything bad about the company nor have I told anyone not to drop money on it. In fact I have even stated it was a good deal. They may not be the richest company, but neither are they a scrappy unknown trying to get their foot in the door either. You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out. They have found a business model that works for them front loading pre-orders to pay for the project through KS, and I don't begrudge them for finding a successful model, but neither will I delude myself that it is something else either.

I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.

The average number of projects a company does on KS seems to be 2, though many are just 1, and Mantic is at sitting at 7 and we know more are coming. If they don't have funds, which is probable, it is because their business model is based around funding through KS for all their projects. Of course I don't know their internal numbers, what I do know is that every 4-6 months you can count on them having something on KS, and that can't be an accident that they keep making new KS projects consistently. I'm not sure why this is taken as a negative; it just is how they make it work. My problem, if you could call it that, isn't that they use KS all the time as much as this project doesn't really have any tiers, just an MSRP with bonuses option. It isn't just Mantic either as they aren't the first to have extremely limited tier options. Some of the other projects, such as Mars Attacks as someone mentioned earlier, probably went overboard but this seems like going to far the other way.

Mantic are probably the most full-throttle gaming company around at the moment in terms of the amount of stuff being released.

There has been at least one month this year where they put out more sprues than GW (the battlezones release), give it time and that will increase to 3-4 months out of every year where they've got more output than the market leader and in the same material, for at least half the price.

They're basically just going ahead and making all the games that GW refuses to make.

How many current players of GW games would go nuts for urban sci-fi skirmish, sports games or dungeon crawlers if they were produced and supported?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.

The average number of projects a company does on KS seems to be 2, though many are just 1, and Mantic is at sitting at 7 and we know more are coming. If they don't have funds, which is probable, it is because their business model is based around funding through KS for all their projects. Of course I don't know their internal numbers, what I do know is that every 4-6 months you can count on them having something on KS, and that can't be an accident that they keep making new KS projects consistently. I'm not sure why this is taken as a negative; it just is how they make it work. My problem, if you could call it that, isn't that they use KS all the time as much as this project doesn't really have any tiers, just an MSRP with bonuses option. It isn't just Mantic either as they aren't the first to have extremely limited tier options. Some of the other projects, such as Mars Attacks as someone mentioned earlier, probably went overboard but this seems like going to far the other way.

No, that wasn't your point or at least not the one I was originally responding to. Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter" to which I pointed out that you're not qualified to make such a statement. I'll discuss it further with you if you can provide any evidence to back up that claim.

 Daedleh wrote:
Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter"

Actually that wasn't my point at all, and was parenthetical at best to the actual issue of lack of tiers and secondarily the subtle difference between being an investor versus being a preorder venue. I'll agree I misstated it a bit, when what I should have said was that I don't think they should need KS at this point, considering everything they have done, their profile, and their successes, except that their model is reliant on KS.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Mantic are probably the most full-throttle gaming company around at the moment in terms of the amount of stuff being released.

There has been at least one month this year where they put out more sprues than GW (the battlezones release), give it time and that will increase to 3-4 months out of every year where they've got more output than the market leader and in the same material, for at least half the price.

They're basically just going ahead and making all the games that GW refuses to make.

How many current players of GW games would go nuts for urban sci-fi skirmish, sports games or dungeon crawlers if they were produced and supported?

I'd love that. However the quality issue always raises it's ugly head.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter"

Actually that wasn't my point at all

Yes it was, plain as day. The argument that established companies don't need KS and should be able to fund everything themselves has been brought up over and over again, and refuted every time, primarily for the simple reason that games companies aren't remotely as big, financially liquid, or as popular with investors and banks as gamers think they are. Mantic and CMoN utilise kickstarter very effectively to vastly accelerate their release schedules, and provide more product and visible, tangible ongoing support and expansion for those products while avoiding the vastly unpopular white metal as a material for bulk minis.

After seeing the plastic zombies sprue, I'd say Mantic have got their s*** together, quality wise.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
After seeing the plastic zombies sprue, I'd say Mantic have got their s*** together, quality wise.

My Marauder gun tracks say differently.

Jake beat me to it. The downside of all of this Mantic KSs and rapid releases is a nearly complete reliance on a shoddy material.

 CptJake wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
After seeing the plastic zombies sprue, I'd say Mantic have got their s*** together, quality wise.

My Marauder gun tracks say differently.

Wasn't that released BEFORE plastic DZ zombies?

Mantic - actually a bit like the old GW releases releases which had spotty quality. We would like nothing but their skellies and zombie efforts. What we get? Well is mass better than quality?

I have probably dropped around 1000 on Mantics stuff. Got all the dreadball stuff and a load of deadzone. I do like Jakes games (even the jungle one ). So I like the games and am buying for them. I do have a load of Mantic plastic to use for random stuff, though also have given/sold a lot of it as well (most was actually for the ultimate DKH experience ).

But this one isn't grabbing me like I thought it would as it is a type of game I love (I won't say how many hours WHQ on iOS has eaten up), but the process is turning me off. I guess I expected a big box approach with a load of scenery and the like. Instead it seems to be a small cheap starter box. Maybe that is the better approach, I guess I am not the audience for that.

 agnosto wrote:
Jake beat me to it. The downside of all of this Mantic KSs and rapid releases is a nearly complete reliance on a shoddy material.

Without KS the material used - which they'd still be working on, Deadzone, Mars Attacks! and DBX not having happened yet - would have been metal, which I personally find to be harder to work with and more difficult to play with than any any kind of plastic on the market.

I think if I were trolling the boardgame section and saw something like this, I'd probably be more inclined to impulse purchase it if it were simpler and under 75 dollars, than decked out and expensive, but that's just me. I think 50 or 60 bucks would see more traction from not-fans taking a chance on it.

 Ahtman wrote:


You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out.

Reaper Miniatures are about to launch their third kickstarter and Mierce Miniatures are soon to launch their 4th and how many KS have CMON launched by now? Lets not pretend this isn't common behavior.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:


You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out.

Reaper Miniatures are about to launch their third kickstarter and Mierce Miniatures are soon to launch their 4th and how many KS have CMON launched by now? Lets not pretend this isn't common behavior.

I never stated that it was something only Mantic did, but that it is far from common, which it is. The number of companies on KS that go past 2 is in the minority, and when you are hitting 6+ you are certainly in a small group. CMON is the king of the KS model, with 12 and going. There isn't anything wrong with relying on KS as long as it remains a profitable model for the companies, and I have said a few times already that there is nothing wrong with it, but it also doesn't mean we can't look at how others are doing things without relying on KS faux pre-orders to create funding either.

I love that I have 1) said it is a good deal 2) said that Mantic has a good model using KS and 3) backed projects myself (look at sig) but when I have the temerity to discuss the lack of tiers in the current KS (as well as other projects) and questioned whether relying on crowd funding should be the go to model for for established companies suddenly people go nuts and act like I am insulting the company as a whole and kicked a bunch of puppies.

 Ahtman wrote:
I love that

I love that you 1. Ignore people pointing out the flaws in your stance 2. move the goal posts and 3. try to claim we're attacking you rather than pointing out that you're wrong.

Lots of love going around!

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
After seeing the plastic zombies sprue, I'd say Mantic have got their s*** together, quality wise.

My Marauder gun tracks say differently.

Wasn't that released BEFORE plastic DZ zombies?

And? When they sent my replacements for the these they sent ones just as bad. This was happing at about the same time the zombie sprues were being done. One decent product (the zombies) is not close to an indicator they have their gak together. The soft detailed mess the cockpit of the stunt bot looks to be from the pictures they presented coupled with the ill fitting Fortress sprues seem more of an indicator they do not in fact have their gak together quality wise. They may have done well with the zombies, but until they develop a trend of delivering quality and stick to it, their gak is not together quality wise.