Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
With the numerous nerfs to Grey Hunters, I am kind of surprised to see that everyone is still considering them the way to go.


Bloodclaws might not be great, but they are getting better and if Grey Hunters end up being slightly more expensive, slighly better tactical marines is everyone so sure you want to build an army around them?

I'm not sure what nerfs you're referring to. They come stock at 14ppm, and assuming the CCW upgrade (which is still there; several models in the codex preview have bolter and ccw) is 1ppm, like csm, then they come to 15ppm, which is where thgery were before and perfectly reasonable.

The only thing they are likely to be losing is the free special weapons, which, while annoying, was not at all unexpected. They remain, from the looks of it, one of the best troop choices in the game.

CSM pay 2 ppm for a CCW, but have the option to swap the bolter for a CCW.

But anyway I havent seen anythign that says that CCW as an extra are 1ppm or that they are even an option. What I have heard is that you have the option to swap.

Free special weapons will make the whole squad on average 1 ppm more expensive.

Rumor is that wolf standards are signifigantly worse

Wolfguard leaders for the greyhunters will now no longer be 18points but 24 points and have more limited options(no TDA).



Ultimately it is looking like they are tactical marines, that can swap bolter for pistol and ccw with counter attack and the ability to take 2 specials at 10 man. Not bad, but turned down from before. Turned down enough to make them no longer easily the best infantry in the game.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
With the numerous nerfs to Grey Hunters, I am kind of surprised to see that everyone is still considering them the way to go.


Bloodclaws might not be great, but they are getting better and if Grey Hunters end up being slightly more expensive, slighly better tactical marines is everyone so sure you want to build an army around them?

I'm not sure what nerfs you're referring to. They come stock at 14ppm, and assuming the CCW upgrade (which is still there; several models in the codex preview have bolter and ccw) is 1ppm, like csm, then they come to 15ppm, which is where thgery were before and perfectly reasonable.

The only thing they are likely to be losing is the free special weapons, which, while annoying, was not at all unexpected. They remain, from the looks of it, one of the best troop choices in the game.

Yes they loose there Special Weapon, but it goes to 1/5 like the Plasma Pistol.
One model can be upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader with access to Special War Gear, including Terminator Armor.
May take a StormClaw a Dedicated Transport
As the Rumors say.

If the worst rumours are true, I still think they look like one if the mist effective and versatile standard infantry choices. I'm so glad logan has a new model. It's been long awaited. Though his points look like they might be too high, especially considering I play 1500 points. I'm so chuffed there's a new book, but I'm really interested to see how it changes the wolves tactically.

 Exergy wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
With the numerous nerfs to Grey Hunters, I am kind of surprised to see that everyone is still considering them the way to go.


Bloodclaws might not be great, but they are getting better and if Grey Hunters end up being slightly more expensive, slighly better tactical marines is everyone so sure you want to build an army around them?

I'm not sure what nerfs you're referring to. They come stock at 14ppm, and assuming the CCW upgrade (which is still there; several models in the codex preview have bolter and ccw) is 1ppm, like csm, then they come to 15ppm, which is where thgery were before and perfectly reasonable.

The only thing they are likely to be losing is the free special weapons, which, while annoying, was not at all unexpected. They remain, from the looks of it, one of the best troop choices in the game.

CSM pay 2 ppm for a CCW, but have the option to swap the bolter for a CCW.

But anyway I havent seen anythign that says that CCW as an extra are 1ppm or that they are even an option. What I have heard is that you have the option to swap.

Free special weapons will make the whole squad on average 1 ppm more expensive.

Rumor is that wolf standards are signifigantly worse

Wolfguard leaders for the greyhunters will now no longer be 18points but 24 points and have more limited options(no TDA).



Ultimately it is looking like they are tactical marines, that can swap bolter for pistol and ccw with counter attack and the ability to take 2 specials at 10 man. Not bad, but turned down from before. Turned down enough to make them no longer easily the best infantry in the game.

I'm pretty sure it will be an upgrade, models have been shown with bolter and ccw in official GW pics. I can't see it going completely. I do don't know csm paiud 2ppm. Carchadons pay 1 ppm for the same, so there's a precedent either way. Even at 16ppm, GH would still be very good.

Fair pont on the Wolf Guard, but its still no more expensive than their sm counterpart. To be honest, I rarely used them that way any way, with astknf leadership is rarely an issue, I'd rather have 2 special at 10 men than 1 and a combined, and theres something to be said for Challenge immunity.

Wolf standards I never used, so I can't really compare there.

Point is, the things that made base GH great was the dual specials and the bolter/bp/ccw CA, and while it's now more expensive, those things look to still be there.

 Paradigm wrote:


I'm pretty sure it will be an upgrade, models have been shown with bolter and ccw in official GW pics. I can't see it going completely. I do don't know csm paiud 2ppm. Carchadons pay 1 ppm for the same, so there's a precedent either way. Even at 16ppm, GH would still be very good.

Fair pont on the Wolf Guard, but its still no more expensive than their sm counterpart. To be honest, I rarely used them that way any way, with astknf leadership is rarely an issue, I'd rather have 2 special at 10 men than 1 and a combined, and theres something to be said for Challenge immunity.

Wolf standards I never used, so I can't really compare there.

Point is, the things that made base GH great was the dual specials and the bolter/bp/ccw CA, and while it's now more expensive, those things look to still be there.

What challenge immunity are you talking about. The new Wolfguard leaders for Grey Hunters will certainly be characters, so they will not be immune to challenges. As for just not taking one, yeah that is as always great.

If they have the CCW upgrade for 2 points

A 10 man with 2 plasma guns goes from 165pts to 190pts. Costing more is a bit of a nerf.


My point is they are going from Awesome to good. Not that they are bad, but that they are taking a hit. They use to be so awesome that you would always just take as many as you could. I think their nerfing might open things up a bit for other units.

 Exergy wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


I'm pretty sure it will be an upgrade, models have been shown with bolter and ccw in official GW pics. I can't see it going completely. I do don't know csm paiud 2ppm. Carchadons pay 1 ppm for the same, so there's a precedent either way. Even at 16ppm, GH would still be very good.

Fair pont on the Wolf Guard, but its still no more expensive than their sm counterpart. To be honest, I rarely used them that way any way, with astknf leadership is rarely an issue, I'd rather have 2 special at 10 men than 1 and a combined, and theres something to be said for Challenge immunity.

Wolf standards I never used, so I can't really compare there.

Point is, the things that made base GH great was the dual specials and the bolter/bp/ccw CA, and while it's now more expensive, those things look to still be there.

What challenge immunity are you talking about. The new Wolfguard leaders for Grey Hunters will certainly be characters, so they will not be immune to challenges. As for just not taking one, yeah that is as always great.

If they have the CCW upgrade for 2 points

A 10 man with 2 plasma guns goes from 165pts to 190pts. Costing more is a bit of a nerf.


My point is they are going from Awesome to good. Not that they are bad, but that they are taking a hit. They use to be so awesome that you would always just take as many as you could. I think their nerfing might open things up a bit for other units.

By challenge immunity, I mean that a GH squad with no character can not be challenged, so that's just a few more hits going on the enemy. Noit massive, but good. I've run leaderless GH since 5th and its never been an issue.

I agree they won't be as amazing as before, I just misinterpreted you as saying they had been entirely ousted by Blood Claws. No harm done. I myself intend to try out a Claw Pack or two at some point, and it'll be good to see more variety.

Rumour has it that wolf guard can now take bikes and jump packs..... Just hoping someone allows them to be taken as troops....

Yep, 3ppm foot Jump Packs and 7ppm for bikes. Could indeed be interesting. I don't expect there to be a troop slot shifter, though, as unbound exists. If there is, I imagine it will be in the Logan supplement.

That's not a terrible thing, if they can keep their bikes and be troops it might be worth buying the supplement. Imagine objective secured wolf guard on bikes....

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Rumour has it that wolf guard can now take bikes and jump packs.....

They always have been able to take them it just cost them 25/35 points.

*EDIT*

Posted in the wrong thread originally.

To be more in line with this one, it'd be great to have some Biker WG. I always wanted to get some bikes but they just never seemed worth it before when they only had BC stats.

Well looking at things and how they are fitting together it looks like I will not be changing much from my normal Core

Rune Priest [Level-2]
Wolf Scouts [x10 with x2 Plasma Pistol, 1x Plasma Gun]
Grey Hunters [x10 with 2 Plasma Guns, 2x Plasma Pistols, Power Fist]
Grey Hunters [x10 with 2 Plasma Guns, 2x Plasma Pistols, Power Fist]
Land Speeder Squadron [x3 Heavy Bolters, x3 Typhoons]
Long Fangs [2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers]

I just need to add a HQ to my Core. I was thinking of one of the following
>Bjorn and some dreads.
>Harald and some Thunderwolves
>HQ in Terminator Armor, 5 Wolf Guard in a Stormfang
>HQ and a bunch of Blood Claws

I'm thinking grey hunters in drop pods with meltas. Maybe 2 meltas and 2 plasma pistols. Not too sure. But two of those. Some long fangs with a drop pod. They won't ever start in it, but both GH pods can hit turn one. Then maybe some thunderwolf cavalry and logan upfront. Add a couple of vindicators and a priest with the long fangs. If I have the points then so e WG on bikes....

Well I have been doing some number crunching and a 10 model Skyclaw Pack with 2 Flamers, Power Axe lead by a WGPL with a Power Weapon is just 200 points.

I think my core will also be remaining largely the same, around 30 GH in various configurations, a CC Wolf Lord with Wolf Guard, some Scouts for interference and some WGT for more CC power. I'll also be adding in one of the Dreads, I'm not sure yet whether it'll be shield, Bjorn or Murderfang in a pod.

I think that'll depend largely on what role you want it to fill....

Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

 magodedisco wrote:
Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

They are a point cheaper than they used to be. They are also a good way to get melta/plasma into the backfield. They are also scoring, but so is everything these days.

 Paradigm wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:
Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

They are a point cheaper than they used to be. They are also a good way to get melta/plasma into the backfield. They are also scoring, but so is everything these days.

Worthless...no I don't think so.
They are still the best Marine Scouts out there. With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Behind an ADL with Cammo Cloaks with Sniper Rifles and a Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon.
Even if they are restricted to Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers that should give some good medium range firepower.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:
Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

They are a point cheaper than they used to be. They are also a good way to get melta/plasma into the backfield. They are also scoring, but so is everything these days.

Worthless...no I don't think so.
They are still the best Marine Scouts out there. With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Behind an ADL with Cammo Cloaks with Sniper Rifles and a Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon.
Even if they are restricted to Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers that should give some good medium range firepower.

Although I agree..... It's not very wolf like....

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:
Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

They are a point cheaper than they used to be. They are also a good way to get melta/plasma into the backfield. They are also scoring, but so is everything these days.

Worthless...no I don't think so.
They are still the best Marine Scouts out there. With the addition of Shotguns and the ability to take a Heavy Weapon I think gave them more flexibility. I think they may also fill the roll of Tactical Marines as objective holders.
Behind an ADL with Cammo Cloaks with Sniper Rifles and a Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon.
Even if they are restricted to Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers that should give some good medium range firepower.

Although I agree..... It's not very wolf like....

Depends on the type of hunt.
Think of the Wolf Scouts figuring out that the path of the enemies travel. Then the hunt begins. One or more packs [Grey Hunters, Blood Claws or even more Wolf Scouts] skirts to the side of the enemy working on outflanking them while the other sits and waits for the prey to walk into the trap before springing it.

With Wolf Guard, WGT, two types of Dread, Murdefang, Lone Wolves, Scouts and Arjac as his own unit apparently, I think the Elite slot might be getting a bit crowded. I'll likely be using Scouts, a Dread any WGT, but I'm somewhat gutted that I won't get Arjac in there as well after I just converted one.

Between GH and BC, it wouldn't be hard to meet 2-FOC requirements, but still.

 Paradigm wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:
Is it me or are Wolf Scouts pretty much worthless now? What do they have over standard SM scouts besides Counterattack and Acute Senses to make up for NOT being scoring? Aren't they more expensive now too?

I think a few profiles are gonna make or break this release, especially the generic Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The potential for air cav is also interesting, though who knows how viable that's gonna be?

It is nice to see dreads so cheap though. 95 base is awesome!

They are a point cheaper than they used to be. They are also a good way to get melta/plasma into the backfield. They are also scoring, but so is everything these days.

Sorry I meant more expensive than SM scouts. Also, I should have said objective secured instead of scoring. Basically, I don't understand what they have to offer over regular (OBJECTIVE SECURED) SM scouts that makes the increase in cost worth it. They used to have the ability to almost assuredly roll in from the back edge, which was unique and worth the cost. If you want to run sniper scouts, the SM ones win here again for being cheaper and OS. With the loss of Behind Enemy Lines, these scouts just don't feel even slightly elite anymore.

What they have over SM Scouts is the boost to WS/BS4 (the latter of which is very helpful) and the option for much more deadly weaponry than their SM counterparts. It could be argued that Drop Pod GH are a better plasma/melta delivery system, but minimum Wolf Scouts with a meltagun works out cheaper.

The key is to think of them as forward operatives rather than the back-board squatters the SM scouts are.

From how it looks in the rumors and people who have the codex, there are some interesting changes.

First up, Grey hunters. Yeah, 1 point less, but 2 points more for the CCW. Here is the thing, you might not need that CCW. Rumors for wolf standard are that it grans re-roll of moral and pinning within 12" and each friendly model with 6" gets a bonus attack.
If the rumors are true, GH with CCW would be boosted to 4 attacks, and that doesn't seem to shabby at all.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
From how it looks in the rumors and people who have the codex, there are some interesting changes.

First up, Grey hunters. Yeah, 1 point less, but 2 points more for the CCW. Here is the thing, you might not need that CCW. Rumors for wolf standard are that it grans re-roll of moral and pinning within 12" and each friendly model with 6" gets a bonus attack.
If the rumors are true, GH with CCW would be boosted to 4 attacks, and that doesn't seem to shabby at all.

The question now is, which is then most effective troops selection considering points. Grey hunters or blood claws? I think blood claws have a much greater potential now. They're cheap as hell, and have a very good Base level of attacks. Especially on the charge.

Getting them on the charge is the problem. Grey hunters have a low investment cost to get them into effective range, 35-40 points usually. Blood claws, if you want them assaulting, run you an extra 200-250 points.

Probably depends on their job is:
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Flamer]: Anti-Infantry, Objective Taker.
>Blood Claws {All Types} [Melta-Gun]: Close Quarters Anti-Tank/MC, most likely out of a Drop Pod, I would even toss in a Power Axe/Power Fist.
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Plasma Pistol]: TEQ/Vehicle/Monster Hunter, especially with a Power Axe or Power Fist thrown in.

It would also depend on Transport options.
I am thinking of taking 10 Blood Claws in a Drop Pod to take Objectives or 15+Wolf Priest in a Stormfang Assault Craft for late game Objective grabbing.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Probably depends on their job is:
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Flamer]: Anti-Infantry, Objective Taker.
>Blood Claws {All Types} [Melta-Gun]: Close Quarters Anti-Tank/MC, most likely out of a Drop Pod, I would even toss in a Power Axe/Power Fist.
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Plasma Pistol]: TEQ/Vehicle/Monster Hunter, especially with a Power Axe or Power Fist thrown in.

It would also depend on Transport options.
I am thinking of taking 10 Blood Claws in a Drop Pod to take Objectives or 15+Wolf Priest in a Stormfang Assault Craft for late game Objective grabbing.

The Melta gun/drop pod combo is what interests me. Prob two squads. Then possibly throw in logan-claus and his sleigh. Two squads of armed to the teeth TWC with Shields. Two iron priests on mounts and maybe a dread in a pod.... Would upset my friends farsight army.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Probably depends on their job is:
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Flamer]: Anti-Infantry, Objective Taker.
>Blood Claws {All Types} [Melta-Gun]: Close Quarters Anti-Tank/MC, most likely out of a Drop Pod, I would even toss in a Power Axe/Power Fist.
>Blood Claws (All Types} [Plasma Pistol]: TEQ/Vehicle/Monster Hunter, especially with a Power Axe or Power Fist thrown in.

It would also depend on Transport options.
I am thinking of taking 10 Blood Claws in a Drop Pod to take Objectives or 15+Wolf Priest in a Stormfang Assault Craft for late game Objective grabbing.

The Melta gun/drop pod combo is what interests me. Prob two squads. Then possibly throw in logan-claus and his sleigh. Two squads of armed to the teeth TWC with Shields. Two iron priests on mounts and maybe a dread in a pod.... Would upset my friends farsight army.

The only issue with the Drop Pod is you will only get one Melta Gun
Now going to 9 Models
>Melta-Gun
>Power Fist
WGPL
>Combi-Melta
>Power Lance
>Melta Bombs
Wolf Priest
>Combi-Melta
>Melta Bombs

This could be the way to go.