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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Heh!

I get that they don't do demographic research, have no focus groups and do not ask the market what it wants.

BUT...wouldn't there own financial results tell them that what they're doing isn't really working?

I wouldn't be surprised if the never put the two together. Sure, they can see sales declining, but maybe they think the reason is not enough GW stores, or those pesky online retailers selling things at a discount, or eBay or any number of things other than their own strategy. People aren't buying enough! Make the game bigger! Nonsense like that.

"Its all Chapter House Studios' fault, stealing revenue that rightly belongs to us."

-Tom Kirby.

"It's all Chapterhouse Studios' fault, stealing our hogs."

-Tom Kirby.

Touche.

 insaniak wrote:

They can release new codexes as fast as they want, I still won't be buying them until they offer a softcover option.

Or at least shrink wrap the codices and give me a digital key for the digital version within. I could justify the cost a little more if I got both a hardback version for my own library and a digital version that I can take to games. But having to pay for one or the other?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Janthkin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Vet players will generally only buy the new stuff. .

This is not actually true.

A lot of vets build multiple armies, and even those who stick to the one army will generally need to buy additional stuff as new codexes rearrange their army.

Up until very recently, my usual pattern was to see/plan a playstyle I wanted to try out, figure out the codex that fit it best, and go buy the whole mess.

I used to be similar. One of the things I loved about 40K was the planning. I used to love list-building and comparing it to the lists that I was seeing in the meta. Sometimes I would drift over to other armies and decide they fit my ideas for the time, so I might build that army instead.

With an accelerated release schedule, that seems less and less feasible. The list-building is less fun because the meta is ever-changing. By the time I would've bought the new models, played some games with the new list and made adjustments, the next codex would've already hit, forcing me to do it again.

Speaking of missed opportunities:

Fantasy Flight Games is releasing a space ship game, with new movement rules and integrated bases to reduce player record keeping.

The sales will likely indicate that GW abandoned sales when it stopped BFG.

DrRansom wrote:
The sales will likely indicate that GW abandoned sales when it stopped BFG.

I'm not sure that the sales of a Star Wars capital ship game will tell anyone anything useful about whether or not BFG should be still on sale.

 insaniak wrote:

DrRansom wrote:
The sales will likely indicate that GW abandoned sales when it stopped BFG.

I'm not sure that the sales of a Star Wars capital ship game will tell anyone anything useful about whether or not BFG should be still on sale.

Not in the absolute sense, but more of "a market existed" and someone else is going to seize and hold that market.

DrRansom wrote:
Not in the absolute sense, but more of "a market existed"...

...for a Star Wars game.

BFG is not a Star Wars game.

 insaniak wrote:

DrRansom wrote:
Not in the absolute sense, but more of "a market existed"...

...for a Star Wars game.

BFG is not a Star Wars game.

It is however a 'Capitol Ships' game.

So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
*EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....

I don't blame him in the slightest. I don't play SW and the Wolfy McWolfersson bollocks was already a turnoff - this latest ridiculous junk is turning me off the entire setting tbh. GW stepped way too far over the line with those things, far enough to seriously damage the setting for me. I could handle the bathtub dropship for the ww2 troop ship aesthetic, but there is no redeeming ... what you said. I don't even want to type it ; /

 Yonan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
*EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....

I don't blame him in the slightest. I don't play SW and the Wolfy McWolfersson bollocks was already a turnoff - this latest ridiculous junk is turning me off the entire setting tbh. GW stepped way too far over the line with those things, far enough to seriously damage the setting for me. I could handle the bathtub dropship for the ww2 troop ship aesthetic, but there is no redeeming ... what you said. I don't even want to type it ; /

It forces a dilemma on us SW players. Buy the codex and vindicate all this crap or eternally be blamed for something worse when numbers don't add up.....

2017...The Murder Wolves approach.......

Seriously though, GW and its aversion to market research is really fething stupid.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

It is however a 'Capitol Ships' game.

So while it does not align on one axis it does align on another, equally important, axis.

Except it doesn't, entirely... because a certain number of sales of the Star Wars game are going to be coming from the fact that it is Star Wars, rather than specifically because it is a capital ship-oriented game.

When decipher lost the Star Wars license they attempted to continue using the Star Wars CCG rules with their own product, Wars TCG. It didn't catch on. Similarly a generic fantasy game with the LotR rules wouldn't have flown off the shelves like LotR did.

Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
*EDIT* Murderfang had another victim today - a Space Wolves player, with twenty years of playing the army, decided enough was enough when he read about Murderfang, and looked at Logan Claus and his sleigh....

RE: Star Wars Armada and BFG interest.

When Specialist Games started to disappear, Spartan Games seemed to reverse a decision that their game, Firestorm Armada, was to follow Uncharted Seas into 'direct sales only, no further releases' territory. Since then, they've introduced a new, revitalised version of the game in a big starter box. I think that indicates that a market for ship games suddenly appeared, as if by magic...

I was definitely looking for a capital ship game, but I didn't like the ship designs of Armada. I wanted to get into BFG but I was at college and by the time I was ready, it was gone. A Star Wars big ship game? I'm there!

Toofast wrote:
Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.

So, what you're essentially saying is that due to Games Workshop making bad commercial decisions, you've decided to punish them by giving them more money?

Not to pick on you specifically, because this isn't a unique situation, but this is very typical of the behaviour that has kept GW's treading water for so long.

I appreciate what you say about not buying direct, it is the same technique I use myself if I really feel that GW make the best thing I want in order to represent whatever unit it is I'm building and I can't find a third party or second hand version in reasonable time, but starting a whole new army is still going to require fairly substantial buy in, and unless you've the patience to do it entirely third party/second hand, that is still putting reasonably substantial cash in GW's coffers.

This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I was definitely looking for a capital ship game, but I didn't like the ship designs of Armada. I wanted to get into BFG but I was at college and by the time I was ready, it was gone.

Pssst...

http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5203.0
http://www.shapeways.com/search?q=battlefleet+gothic
http://tinyurl.com/pcjxmk8

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Heh!

I get that they don't do demographic research, have no focus groups and do not ask the market what it wants.

BUT...wouldn't there own financial results tell them that what they're doing isn't really working?

I wouldn't be surprised if the never put the two together. Sure, they can see sales declining, but maybe they think the reason is not enough GW stores, or those pesky online retailers selling things at a discount, or eBay or any number of things other than their own strategy. People aren't buying enough! Make the game bigger! Nonsense like that.

"Its all Chapter House Studios' fault, stealing revenue that rightly belongs to us."


-Tom Kirby.

Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory results.
The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who ‘cease and desist’ as soon as they get the letter. Those who don’t should be stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate threat of damage to our profits.

Tom Kirby - 2012-2013 Annual Report

For emphasis of comparison, here is what he wrote this year:

We have, this last year, spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do when it is done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably been typical of most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit, lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?

Oh, and by the way, Kirby wrote the 2012-2013 preamble AFTER the GW v CHS verdict. Note that nothing about the state of that verdict or the case has changed between that preamble and the current one. So, why the change in tune?

So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?

More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?

More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.

No, you're reading it correctly.

This presents as one of two likely scenarios.

They needed as many plausible reasons as possible to explain away the drop in profits as a temporary blip,rather than a trend, and so switched the direction of the spin and hoped it would pass casual inspection.

They've had their arses handed to them in the behind closed doors negotiations that have been happening since shortly after the trial concluded, and that isn't public yet.

I actually think that GW's idea of charging crapton for their models has actually had some positive effects for their product sales that aren't showing, and here's why; there will 100% always be a very large amount of people who will buy their stuff so long as it is made. Why? Because we've (I am one of them) have spent a RIDICULOUS amount of money on it. For me to start to play another board game now is an incredibly stupid idea because
a) like most gamers I know I only have time for one game, and that game is going to be the one that I have put the money into
b) I've put this much money into them that I will take the dicking around because if I quit the hobby I have wasted thousands on their stuff, never to use it again.

I'm a casual gamer that hasn't got all that much time to try out new games and has enough fun playing 40k and a tiny bit of fantasy to be relatively content. I've spent quite a bit on GW products over the years and I don't want to suddenly make all that redundant while I'm still enjoying myself.

I honestly think that people put too much emphasis on these people that do jump ship compared to those who stick around. For every person that has stopped the game due to what they feel is unfair pricing there are many more who stick around because they aren't unhappy enough to change and the pricing has caused them to commit to the game for the long haul.

Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.

If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.

You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.

I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.

@thetallestgiraffe
No, there is no positive effect.

Sales are going down. price increases and efficiency savings are already starting to show the cracks.

If you see a value from what you are paying then good on you. GW's reports are starting to tell us that a lot more people than you realize are just not prepared to tolerate being unhappy anymore.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Murderfang and Logan Clause have made me decide to start an eldar army after exclusively playing SW since 3rd and getting around 5k points of wolves. I will probably keep my wolves but I'm definitely not buying anything else for them. I'm not really worried about those 2 models ruining the setting as I'll never see them on the table or use them myself. It has made me decide to most likely purchase my eldar stuff anywhere but from GW when I have bought exclusively from them in the past.

So, what you're essentially saying is that due to Games Workshop making bad commercial decisions, you've decided to punish them by giving them more money?

Not to pick on you specifically, because this isn't a unique situation, but this is very typical of the behaviour that has kept GW's treading water for so long.

I appreciate what you say about not buying direct, it is the same technique I use myself if I really feel that GW make the best thing I want in order to represent whatever unit it is I'm building and I can't find a third party or second hand version in reasonable time, but starting a whole new army is still going to require fairly substantial buy in, and unless you've the patience to do it entirely third party/second hand, that is still putting reasonably substantial cash in GW's coffers.

This report explicitly states GW do not listen to us, nor do they care that they don't. Therefore, your wallet is the only thing you can use to communicate your displeasure.

This. When you protest a decision made by GW by purchasing more GW product, you're simply reinforcing their decisions. They don't know (or care!) that you aren't buying Wolves. What they see is a small sales spike after the Wolves release. Whether you're in the group that is buying Wolves or in the group that is buying another army, they don't care. Either way, they got your money and have no intention of changing their creative direction. After all, it is win-win for them: either you're buying the codex you love, or you're buying another codex because they screwed up the one you love.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.

If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.

You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.

I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.

I'm not saying that people aren't going to jump ship, I'm saying that I don't think that GW will have a bottom to fall out under it because of people like me. Apathy is the wrong word... I would more say it's that I don't get involved with all this economic stuff in the hobby. What I know is that I show up to my local GW, play games and socialise. I don't really care about the price TOO much, sure I my gruble but I deal and TBH I don't feel passionately enough to try and change and I have 7 or 8 mates who feel the same. I can't think that my friends are an isolated case, as we very naturally got into this mindset and I can't see out way of thinking being all that revolutionary.

Reading over my previous post I misspoke and I apologise, what I meant was GW has been at the level above what people like me alone would keep it at with this mentality, meaning that people such as yourselves that feel more passionately about wargaming have been happy to put money up until now. But I do think that the money they charge for the hobby has solidified this particular customer, such as myself at a certain level. Sure, even we have our boundaries and I will admit I have been quite happier and maybe was a bit more active, but this high pricing has meant that I have spent enough money on this to not want it to change.

This of course is what I have viewed from my very grassroots level wargaming; I don't have the big, overarching view of things, but it's what I've observed from my own standpoint and I just thought it would be a good to voice it, as most people aren't really looking at this from your average gamer's point of view IMO. But hey, this is a discussion post so make of this what you will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, I know it is a bit depressing being close part of the sunken costs fallacy, but I wouldn't say I'm totally there yet. This is kind of like going to the movies to see the last harry potter they crammed in; it was alright, I may have wanted to see something else instead, but I'd seen part 1 and I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:

Spoiler:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Dude, you're a living, breathing example of the sunken cost fallacy.

If you want to keep playing 40K, that's fine, but don't be under the illusion that you couldn't, at least now while there is still a relatively healthy secondary market, liquidate your GW's stuff and reinvest in a new system, or simply stop buying stuff for Warhammer and start some thing new.

You simply haven't reached the point (and may never) where your dissatisfaction with the product or producer has overhauled your inertia.

I think GW might be (assuming a level of awareness of their customers that they simply may not have in light of this report) gambling on the fact that there's enough people out there with a high enough threshold that they can reach a point of parity, where they can churn out any old rubbish but will not lose custom because of it.

I'm not saying that people aren't going to jump ship, I'm saying that I don't think that GW will have a bottom to fall out under it because of people like me. Apathy is the wrong word... I would more say it's that I don't get involved with all this economic stuff in the hobby. What I know is that I show up to my local GW, play games and socialise. I don't really care about the price TOO much, sure I my gruble but I deal and TBH I don't feel passionately enough to try and change and I have 7 or 8 mates who feel the same. I can't think that my friends are an isolated case, as we very naturally got into this mindset and I can't see out way of thinking being all that revolutionary.

Reading over my previous post I misspoke and I apologise, what I meant was GW has been at the level above what people like me alone would keep it at with this mentality, meaning that people such as yourselves that feel more passionately about wargaming have been happy to put money up until now. But I do think that the money they charge for the hobby has solidified this particular customer, such as myself at a certain level. Sure, even we have our boundaries and I will admit I have been quite happier and maybe was a bit more active, but this high pricing has meant that I have spent enough money on this to not want it to change.

This of course is what I have viewed from my very grassroots level wargaming; I don't have the big, overarching view of things, but it's what I've observed from my own standpoint and I just thought it would be a good to voice it, as most people aren't really looking at this from your average gamer's point of view IMO. But hey, this is a discussion post so make of this what you will.
)

I'm essentially getting two elements from what you're posting firstly, is this..



Seriously, GW are possibly on a knife edge right now - they're revenue has dropped significantly in spite of a continuing phased, rolling price increase (the new SW dreadnought kit is almost identical to the BA Furioso kit, but is >20% more expensive only 3 years later) and their profits are suffering even more, with less than robust reasons (although not totally implausible) why.

If their revenue drops much further, their income will drop below their expenditure, and then they will disappear very, very quickly indeed.

Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.

Give it time.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So... even Kirby doesn't know exactly what he's saying? Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?

More likely I'm not reading into it correctly I presume.

You are reading into it correctly! He did say: "Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"

Your eyes do not deceive you! The above is probably one of the funniest things I have ever read on dakka. I don't need an excuse to quote it!

 Azreal13 wrote:


I'm essentially getting two elements from what you're posting firstly, is this..



Seriously, GW are possibly on a knife edge right now - they're revenue has dropped significantly in spite of a continuing phased, rolling price increase (the new SW dreadnought kit is almost identical to the BA Furioso kit, but is >20% more expensive only 3 years later) and their profits are suffering even more, with less than robust reasons (although not totally implausible) why.

If their revenue drops much further, their income will drop below their expenditure, and then they will disappear very, very quickly indeed.

Secondly, your profile shows you've only been playing for a few years.

Give it time.

Haha, as I say, I will admit to know little of their inner ecenomic workings. I have been playing for five years straight, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the hardcore players sure, but I have been very commited to the hobby in this time and I while it would be ignorant of me to assume that people such as me will keep the company running the way it is at the moment, I just think that there's enough of us to keep interest so that at the very least if the current GW collapses we will be able to get behind it getting bought out but another company who will re work warhammer to make it profitable and give us what we want.

Just don't mix people like me up with what is happening in the wide world of warhammer, as to be honest we have very little concerns about it so long as we don't have our world shaken up too much. I actually noticed 0 problems with GW until I found this topic on Dakka, and I have been to 7 different GWs in four different countries over the past month and it's all business as usual there ( I was on holiday and hoping that they looked really weird; although the french codecies were a bit odd I was quite disappointed).

Don't dismiss us, we'll do our best to make sure our beloved addictions aren't lost

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Did they lobotomise him halfway through the report?

You can't lobotomise someone twice.

weeble1000 wrote:

We have, this last year, spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images.

This sentence shows how out of touch Kirby is with the real world. No one can copyright or trademark ideas, nor can one copyright a sculpture based on an illustration unless one has actually made the sculpture. GW vs Chapterhouse verdict got this wrong which is one of the reasons that two of the top IP law firms in the world are helping Chapterhouse in their appeal of the verdict and doing it pro bono (for free).