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Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

As others have said, unsolicited feedback is worth less than structured market research. Most people only write to a company to complain about something, it's not a sample group from which you can understand anything beyond individual concerns.

The funny thing about saying that GW does get feedback is that they have done their best to cut down on channels through which to give feedback. Their forums were already highly regulated against discussing any topic on their business practices and prices. You can bet if they were still around now they would have prevented people discussing their issues with Finecast. The White Dwarf section was the only one where staff appeared to ask for suggestions saying that changes would take at least three months due to the gap between writing and publishing. Seems fair enough and some people seem optimistic. Well thought out and detailed feedback was given and then clearly ignored, not even given a reply of any sort like 'thanks for your contribution', no changes occurred in White Dwarf, total silence. People got upset because they'd been clearly ignored, quite rudely given the request for suggestions, and didn't even get the decency of a reply saying why certain suggested changes couldn't be made. So GW closed the White Dwarf sections because it was over run with complaints. Then a few months or a year later, GW closed the whole forum down. The whole thing seemed too much effort for them.

Then in more recent years they started using twitter and facebook. But then they decided they owned Space Marines and tried to take down the Spots the Space Marine book. Customer resentment seemed to reach a point where the GW decided that they weren't going to publicly face up to the way they were bulldozing their way around the hobby and again, they just shut it all down. No public response was ever given to the Spots the Space Marine thing even when it made the BBC News and other mainstream papers, it goes unacknowledged just like the issues people had with Finecast. Which they just tried to ride through by claiming they make the best miniatures in the world.

Yes GW does have a SM, they even have a Rino outside at Nottingham. Its needs to be at GenCon though.

rigeld2 wrote:

Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.

I've mentioned them before, but here goes again:

-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs

weeble1000 wrote:

The LOTR bubble wants a word with you. Why was LOTR wildly popular? Because GW advertised the product line.

And where is the LOTR now?

weeble1000 wrote:

And when LEGO was going bankrupt a major part of how the company got turned around was doing market research for the first time since forever. I don't do 'market' research, per se, but I am a professional small group researcher. With the right methodology, putting a dozen people in a room and asking them what they think is incredibly valuable, especially when compared to, you know, assuming things.

What turned Lego around was licenses. In the past they didn't do it, they had their own, quite generic but innovative ranges, Lego Space, Lego City, Lego Castle etc. What changed was that instead of selling 'building blocks' they began to sell 'Action Figures' for known franchises (Star Wars most notably). It was like playing with action figures, only action figure happened to be Lego.

Now, had they asked me, I would have told them that the old ranges were much superior to boring, uninnovative and overpriced licensed ranges. I much rather have an '80s Lego Star Cruiser, than 2000's Darth Maul Fighter ® and let my imagination fill the blanks. It's actually quite depressing that this strategy is successful, but it is, their profits are astonishing.

Oh, and also they cut their workforce big time, and moved their manufacturing from Denmark to Third World.

-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes

Neither are those to do with responding to customers requests. Prices go up frequently, they just do it through new releases and re-releases so that it isn't as obvious. The quicker release schedule is purely a cash grab, as are all the mini codexes and supplements which fragment what should be a single release. The quality of rules is all over the place. These are not examples of GW listening to and responding to customers positively.

Backfire wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Backfire wrote:
"No market research" does not mean that they do not listen to their customer base at all - they do get feedback, they must be well aware what are the most common complaints, and it is obvious that some changes in recent years have been results of customer feedback. Sure, they might not listen customers that MUCH, but it doesn't mean that they're completely ignorant about what average Joe Gamer feels.

I really think they are. What "changes in recent years" can you verify are because of customer feedback? I'm aware of literally zero.

I've mentioned them before, but here goes again:

-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs

Out of curiosity, what evidence (any at all) do you have that these changes were made as a result of listening to things that their customers stated they wanted.

Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."

Backfire wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

The LOTR bubble wants a word with you. Why was LOTR wildly popular? Because GW advertised the product line.

And where is the LOTR now?

The fact that GW fethed up its handling of the LOTR license does not mean that advertising the products did not vastly improve sales.

You could also say, "And where is GW's revenue now?" GW stopped advertising the LOTR product line, stopped supporting it as well, started to betray the source material, and saw the bubble burst. The fact that the movies stopped being released was only one part of the equation. And if you look at Box Office Mojo, The Hobbit movies have thus far been about on par with the LOTR trilogy. And yet GW's Hobbit products have withered on the vine. Why? Is it just because the Desolation of Smaug only grossed 258 million as opposed to 313 million? Or perhaps is it also because unlike with the LOTR bubble GW did no advertising, did not have the products available outside of its normal sales channels, and did not offer the products at a reasonable price?

You can't just say, "the LOTR bubble burst" and insinuate that GW had no control over what created that bubble in the first place. Many of the things that have made GW's Hobbit products such a massive failure are the same things that have arguably been causing GW's sales to decline at an ever increasing pace. In this way, the failure of The Hobbit is a microcosm of what has been causing GW to slide into its current death spiral.

When I met my wife, who is in no way a wargamer, she had several boxes of LOTR miniatures. Crazy, right! What in the Hell possessed her to buy those LOTR related products as opposed to any number of the bewildering array of LOTR memorabilia around. Instead of a replica of Nenya she had GW's Battle at Weathertop box set. She had purchased these because GW had put them where she could easily access them and encouraged her to buy them via marketing campaigns to which she was exposed.

Getting those boxes of products into her hands was far, far, far more than the first step towards earning a new customer/player. But GW dropped the ball. They got that product into her hands, but never turned her into a regular customer. And she didn't blink at GW's Hobbit products. In fact, most tellingly, she had no idea they existed until I told her about them.

Saldiven wrote:

Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."

Arguably? While there's always a set of intertwining concerns behind every business decision, it's hard to imagine this is not the primary motivating factor.

Here's the Board of Directors.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/

Lawyers, accountants, sales guys, and a former tax man. These are not people who think about how to play games, these are people who think about how to structure revenue streams to maximize profit.

From what I understand, supplements are the brain child of Elaine O’Donnell. Tell me what makes you think this person does anything but scour the company's offerings to dissect products to their core and extract new revenue from what's left over.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Arguably, the increased release schedule could be more to do with needing to make more money since sales turnover has been dropping for several years. The annual price hike has been replaced with price increases associated with each individual release. And, WHFB would like a word with you about this supposed "improved and more comprehensive FAQs."

Arguably? While there's always a set of intertwining concerns behind every business decision, it's hard to imagine this is not the primary motivating factor.

Here's the Board of Directors.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/

Lawyers, accountants, sales guys, and a former tax man. These are not people who think about how to play games, these are people who think about how to structure revenue streams to maximize profit.

From what I understand, supplements are the brain child of Elaine O’Donnell. Tell me what makes you think this person does anything but scour the company's offerings to dissect products to their core and extract new revenue from what's left over.

I used "arguably" because I didn't want to make an assertion I couldn't prove, no matter how likely that assertion might be to be true. I didn't want to make the same mistake Backfire made by asserting the increased release schedule was the result of listening to their customer base, despite the fact that he knows that there is absolutely no way he can prove that assertion at any level.

Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").

Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.

Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.

If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...

In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.

It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.

 Selym wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.

If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...

In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.

It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.

Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.

If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...

In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.

It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.

Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.

You mean that the totes awesomesauce that is Murderfang, from Omnicide, who murders things with Murderclaws while suffering from Murderlust, doesn't make you want to play?

WayneTheGame wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

That's easy, IMO: Realize that 13 year old kids are not the only people that play their product., hell maybe not even the majority Maybe that's true in the UK (I've long heard that over there 40k is seen as a game for rich kids unlike here in the states where it is seen as a game for college aged adult nerds, someone from the UK please verify!), but here in the states in my two years of going to the LA Battlebunker almost every weekend with my friends before it became a one-man store, I saw a grand total of THREE customers that fit GW's "13 year old kid with rich parents" demographic. Literally EVERY other customer I saw was an 18 year old+ adult who bought products with their own money.

If GW can be forced to see that their main customers here in the US are NOT 13 year old tweens that actually think names like "Murderfang" are cool, then maybe, MAYBE GW can change their attitudes regarding their customers...

In the UK from my experience, it is rare to see anyone under about 15 being interested in wargaming, and the ones that are often have been introduced to it by an older sibling or a parent.
For the most part, those I have spoken to detest the dumbing down of the IP, and would rather it was more designed for a higher age-range.

It is often a point of annoyance that GW's site, names and minis are designed for over-hypes 12 year olds, the background is designed for not much older than that, and the universe is intended for young adults. It never makes it's mind up, and ends up being stupid as hell. Much like the rules.

Agreed. What finally took the veil off my eyes about GW was when they started cheapening the fluff. For me, no matter how crappy the rules (and I knew they were) I still loved the IP enough to play through the games. But when they started throwing the fluff out the windows and making everything dumbed down, I had enough. They had cheapened the game I loved. That SW flying chariot is the Jar Jar Binks of the 40k world.

You mean that the totes awesomesauce that is Murderfang, from Omnicide, who murders things with Murderclaws while suffering from Murderlust, doesn't make you want to play?

Makes me wanna be sick.

10 year old me would think that is pants on head.

10 year old me had just finished reading Dune. 10 year old me didn't want 'kids stuff.'

GW doesn't care. You'll buy what they tell you like good little lambs customers.

Dunno man, 8 year old me would find the fluff pretty cool.

Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").

Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.

Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.

Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:

Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.

I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.

GW is losing ground and the market very quickly at this point.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").

Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.

Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.

Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:

Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.

I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.

GW us losing ground, and the market, very quickly at this point.

They didn't have 5000 copies with them. 5000 copies is the entire first print run of Icestorm, which includes the copies being sold through stores. If they sold all 5000 at Gencon, they'd have lots and lots of very angry and disappointed fans no longer getting the copy they'd paid money for through other stores.

They did, however, likely have several hundred copies at Gencon, which sold out.

I know Wyrd got 3 weeks of my hobby money from Gencon (that Whiskey Golem is wonderful).

Even with 49,000 visitors at GenCon I think they would have been very lucky to sell 5,000 units.

500 copies sold I can easily imagine. Presumably part of the convention is visiting trade stands like any big show.

Okay, so I was off about the number of copies, but the point of selling out early still remains.

Another interesting point about GenCon. Back in the 80s/90s it was primarily an RPG experience with some other gaming thrown in (primarily MTG once it became popular). Now it it huge with tabletop and board games, as well as RPG, and GW has NO presence there whatsoever.

While I haven't kept up with all of it, what is there is an interesting peek at the near future. Infinity with Icestorm and in process of 3rd edition to make the game more mainstream. FFG with The Witcher, Star Wars Armada and now Imperial Assault (hmmm, 28mm Star Wars miniatures starting to dip their toes in that market).

I haven't keep up with Mantic and Wyrd other than Mantic tweeting a pic that by Day 3 their shelves are all almost empty.

I just don't see how GW can continue to sit back and pretend their is no competition. Between Salute in the UK and GenCon, two of the biggest gaming conventions, they have had NO exposure to thousands of gamers.

 Wayshuba wrote:
Okay, so I was off about the number of copies, but the point of selling out early still remains.

Another interesting point about GenCon. Back in the 80s/90s it was primarily an RPG experience with some other gaming thrown in (primarily MTG once it became popular). Now it it huge with tabletop and board games, as well as RPG, and GW has NO presence there whatsoever.

While I haven't kept up with all of it, what is there is an interesting peek at the near future. Infinity with Icestorm and in process of 3rd edition to make the game more mainstream. FFG with The Witcher, Star Wars Armada and now Imperial Assault (hmmm, 28mm Star Wars miniatures starting to dip their toes in that market).

I haven't keep up with Mantic and Wyrd other than Mantic tweeting a pic that by Day 3 their shelves are all almost empty.

I just don't see how GW can continue to sit back and pretend their is no competition. Between Salute in the UK and GenCon, two of the biggest gaming conventions, they have had NO exposure to thousands of gamers.

In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway). But nothing like what PP, FFG have out there.

 heartserenade wrote:
Dunno man, 8 year old me would find the fluff pretty cool.

Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.

8 year old me would have found it cool. But, the 10/11 year old me that first got into GW did so precisely because it didn't appear childish. Actually, WD 126 (the famous Eldar issue) was the first copy I picked up from a local newsagent. The miniatures, artwork and stories inside had a cool 'adult' edge to it, which separated it from the other toys that you are moving away from at that age.

I think an element of this is getting older (moving away from it as it is moving away from me) but I think a good number of the new releases are far more toy-like, and the company in general seems far more sanitised and much less edgy - I guess part of that is the change to a bigger and more professional company (no room for boobs or racial skin tones!) but a side consequence of that is that I think it actually then appeals less to the target age group that GW are going for.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Even with 49,000 visitors at GenCon I think they would have been very lucky to sell 5,000 units.

500 copies sold I can easily imagine. Presumably part of the convention is visiting trade stands like any big show.

Oddly enough, Forgeworld aside, GW not having a presence at Gencon resulted in 0 copies of their expansion being sold.

Because selling nothing is better than recognizing that you have competition.

 heartserenade wrote:
Dunno man, 8 year old me would find the fluff pretty cool.

Until I look at the model. Why does it have an ugly head stuck outside a robot body?! It's not only impractical (I'm fine with the rule of cool), but that's definitely waaaay uncool.

Does anyone know if the head is interchangeable? I'm with you - I think it looks ridiculous, but leaving it off or swapping it with another would be passable.

Now about that name and fluff. . .

 agnosto wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Even with 49,000 visitors at GenCon I think they would have been very lucky to sell 5,000 units.

500 copies sold I can easily imagine. Presumably part of the convention is visiting trade stands like any big show.

Oddly enough, Forgeworld aside, GW not having a presence at Gencon resulted in 0 copies of their expansion being sold.

Because selling nothing is better than recognizing that you have competition.

I actually hope that GW carry on as they have been for a few more years. It will just give these other, smaller companies more of a chance to reach a critical mass in terms of players, grow larger, and ultimately result in much of a pluralistic industry (at least as far as sci-fi/fantasy is concerned) in the years to come.

If one is to take a wider and more utilitarian view of this kind of thing..

Backfire wrote:
-quicker update schedule for Codices
-abandoning annual price hikes
-improved and more comprehensive FAQs

Do you want to know why so many at Dakka are quick to throw out titles like "White Knight", "Apologist", "Tireless Defender" and so on? It's because of disingenuous posts like this one above Backfire.

1. The quicker updates are to increase short-term profits. Their entire release schedule is about that now.
2 (and easily the most egregious and wilfully ignorant of the above). They now increase prices with each release, rather than in a block. You'd have to be blind not to see that by now.
3. Based on what? When a new FAQ comes out I tend to look for people like Yakface to break them down, and he's often left posting little emORKticons like "" at whatever new nonsense GW has managed to come out with. The latest batches of FAQ's created different rules depending on what medium you owned the book, with FAQ's and digital editions contradicting one another. GW don't try all that hard when it comes to errata. If they did they'd be more frequent about it, and they'd certainly be more accurate.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Regarding the Hobbit vs. LotR - other licensed Middle Earth related products are doing well enough. Both games and toys. The movies are popular (though not quite as impressive) as the first go around - and various toys and games are moving pretty well (I haven't pressed for figures, but most I have asked say "about the same").

Regarding GW in general - with GenCon here...a lot of other companies are doing their presentations. FFG is still saying they are getting 25% or more annual growth.

Whatever GW are doing - they are doing it wrong.

Regarding GenCon. Here is another piece of anecdotal evidence of GW losing ground to competition:

Corvus Belli came with 5,000 copies of Infinity Operation: Icestorm. They sold out all 5,000 in the first two days. The SE miniature they brought, sold out in the very first hour of GenCon.

I'd be willing to bet their are other companies (FFG, Wyrd, et. al.) that are doing just as well.

GW us losing ground, and the market, very quickly at this point.

They didn't have 5000 copies with them. 5000 copies is the entire first print run of Icestorm, which includes the copies being sold through stores. If they sold all 5000 at Gencon, they'd have lots and lots of very angry and disappointed fans no longer getting the copy they'd paid money for through other stores.

They did, however, likely have several hundred copies at Gencon, which sold out.

I know Wyrd got 3 weeks of my hobby money from Gencon (that Whiskey Golem is wonderful).

Used to be common for publishers to bring around 1000 copies of a new release. While the bulk goes to regular sales, retailers and distributors would also watch reception and buy/order as well. The internet has no doubt lessened that, but you still normally have people buying for their whole group. 49K attendants are likely purchasing for 200K gamers.

That said...they had 750 copies at GenCon. All sold, very fast.

 darefsky wrote:
In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway).

That's because Forge World remain the only subsection of that company run by adults. It used to be them and Black Library, but BL succumbed to Horus Heresy-itis, and started doing limited edition books and not telling anyone about new releases until a week before and expensive hardbacks that no one asked for. Now FW remains the one group doing what they can to promote their product by going to various conventions across the world whilst fighting their own Horus Heresy-itis infection (it's already claimed their book-writing arm, but it hasn't spread to their brain yet).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
In all fairness Forgeworld has a sales booth at GenCon (or used to anyway).

That's because Forge World remain the only subsection of that company run by adults. It used to be them and Black Library, but BL succumbed to Horus Heresy-itis, and started doing limited edition books and not telling anyone about new releases until a week before and expensive hardbacks that no one asked for. Now FW remains the one group doing what they can to promote their product by going to various conventions across the world whilst fighting their own Horus Heresy-itis infection (it's already claimed their book-writing arm, but it hasn't spread to their brain yet).

I know people love the Horus Heresy but I could care less about it. I hope they eventually get back to making products for usual game play instead of creating their own alternative game.