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question!: Can i assault with my termies now after i have deepstriked ?

Answer!: No.

Teknoist wrote:
question!: Can i assault with my termies now after i have deepstriked ?

Lol. No

Where did you get that from ?

Edit: ah ninjad !

 Redemption wrote:
Answer!: No.

Thank you!

After mocking up some lists and more-importantly sleeping on it, I'm still gutted -- but in the effort of trying to look on the bright side here are my thoughts.

Basically the Grey Knights went from having a few neat builds to being a very boring army. They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.

PAGK suck with the exception of Purifiers and situationally Interceptors. There's no reason to take SS at 15 points less than Purifiers unless you're hell bent on being battle-forged, which is pointless with this codex.

I'll be running two ML3 librarians, 20 purifiers w/ four Incinerators combat squadded into four units of five, two squads of terminators, three dreadknights and two techmarines with conversion beamers -- because it's basically the only way to get ranged AT on the cheap.

I think the change to halberds sucks against some armies, but is better across the board. S5 in CC helps mitigate the loss of psybolt to an extent, but not really because we all know the game is skewed heavily towards shooting.

The HQ options are all over the place points wise. It's hard to justify taking anything but ML3 librarians at 135 pts vs. more-expensive GM and champions that are one-trick ponies.

I'll probably have one librarian roll on Sanctic, the other on Telepathy and hope for invis. Sanctified flame spam on Purifiers is nothing to sneeze at, provided you're not facing an army with easy deny.

I think Grey Knights can still be viable. No, they'll never ever top table as a single army -- heck, they're probably the worst single army in 40k now, but there's still a few things that could work in a local setting.

 Auswin wrote:
They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.

I may be to negative, but a honest question: why would someone want to ally in some Grey knight ? What can they give, that you can't get better from other armies ??

Cheap ML3 libbies and Cheap NDKs I would reckon

I'd be tempted into running something like this with pure GK's:

2 of the GK Detachment:

2 Lvl3 Libbies
2 5 Man Terminator w/Psycannon Squads
4 Dreadknights w/H. Incinerator & Teleporter
2 10 Man Interceptors w/ 2 Incinerator if I can find 30pts to drop otherwise I'll probably drop 2 from one squad and upgrade all the guns to psycannons since they'll be in the position to use them best at that point.

But more likely I'll be running GK's w/the Champions of Fenris detachment so I can take dreads as my compulsory choices in my allied force for ranged support and then run the normal force org so I can have 3 DK's. Also hoping for some good formations that maybe include DK's

Tyfus wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.

I may be to negative, but a honest question: why would someone want to ally in some Grey knight ? What can they give, that you can't get better from other armies ??

135 pt ML3 librarians that are denying offensive powers on a 4+ (often 3+) is nothing to sneeze at. Also, I can see some centstar shenanigans using gate to move them around the board.

Pair that with NDKs and cheap hammernators as troops and you have a nice base, especially given the growing propensity for seeing demons in the meta or as allies. Offering some solid all-around options with anti-demon is nice. I just think GK suffer from diminished returns the more of them you take.

 Redemption wrote:
Cheap ML3 libbies and Cheap NDKs I would reckon

For an ally you then get one of each.

Depended on what army you play, i would rather have Tigurius than a GK Libby as ally. If you do IG blobs a much better choice IMO is the Inqusitor from codex I with psyker and the grenades. Or cotaez.

For the knight. He is good, but will have problems alone. He is not that hard to kill. He has some shooting, but the close combat is the important one. The problem is delivering him. For 200 points i would rather have some mroe shooting, maybe 3 centurions in a pod) or a riptide, wraithknight etc. But depends on your armies.

 Redemption wrote:
Cheap ML3 libbies and Cheap NDKs I would reckon

Yeah those are the two best things in the new codex. So if we are talking allies that means 1 hq 1 troop and 1 heavy. So one Lib, 1 NDK and probably one five man plain GKSS squad to keep the troop tax down. Unless 5 GKTs actually compliments the build of the main force.

Edited to add - if doing double CAD instead of allies you could bring two or more NDKs to compliment the main army force. But then that means spending points on two troops instead of one...

135 pt ML3 librarians that are denying offensive powers on a 4+ (often 3+) is nothing to sneeze at. Also, I can see some centstar shenanigans using gate to move them around the board.

I would say that the deny on 3+ is mostly irrelevant. Almost all the good psychic powers are not targeting you, but are blessings and summoning. So you are still on your 6+ to deny. The difference now is that GK has lost their warp charge battery, so it will be harder to deny those.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

ForeverARookie wrote:
They are close combat Psykers, who can't cast their psychic powers when in close combat. They have been become a one-trick pony, and all of the builds are going to start looking alike, more so than the 5th edition Codex.

You keep repeating this, you're aware you can cast blessings and maledictions in combat right?

You're right, I misread the psychic powers. I was thrown off when Cleansing Flame went from CC only to Can't be used in CC.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd be tempted into running something like this with pure GK's:

2 of the GK Detachment:

2 Lvl3 Libbies
2 5 Man Terminator w/Psycannon Squads
4 Dreadknights w/H. Incinerator & Teleporter
2 10 Man Interceptors w/ 2 Incinerator if I can find 30pts to drop otherwise I'll probably drop 2 from one squad and upgrade all the guns to psycannons since they'll be in the position to use them best at that point.

But more likely I'll be running GK's w/the Champions of Fenris detachment so I can take dreads as my compulsory choices in my allied force for ranged support and then run the normal force org so I can have 3 DK's. Also hoping for some good formations that maybe include DK's

Want it be a problem that in your list you don't have any objective secured units ??

OBSEC is overrated unless you're playing Maelstrom missions.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
OBSEC is overrated unless you're playing Maelstrom missions.

Well i guess we have totaly different opinions on that. On relic and kill point missions i accept your view, but not on the rest of the normal missions.

And a lot of GTs are incorporating some versions of maelstrom (like BAO and ETC) or other version where scoring is important (like Nova)

What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..

Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.

Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.

Brutishcard wrote:
What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..

With gate and AP2 i think he's ok. Problem is the LOW-slot, getting enough warp charges to do anything and not making paladinds troops. Even though he got cheaper, it's a lot of points, like 2 libbys.

Brutishcard wrote:
What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..

I think he's neat, that's the best word for it. He's better in combat than the previous iteration, but all the GM took a hit with the loss of grand strategy.

The problem is that being unable to charge out of gate means he'll suffer from similar problems to Typhus -- big, slow and something people will just avoid rather than trying to deal with.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.

Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.

I seem to disagree all the time

Say hello to big IG blobs, or necron warriors jumping out from flyers, sw troops and deticated transport flyers etc, eldar jetbikes and wave serpents swooping in one at a time at the objective. In my games in 7.ed obejctive secured has been really important.

 Auswin wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:
What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..

I think he's neat, that's the best word for it. He's better in combat than the previous iteration, but all the GM took a hit with the loss of grand strategy.

The problem is that being unable to charge out of gate means he'll suffer from similar problems to Typhus -- big, slow and something people will just avoid rather than trying to deal with.

well he can be put into the NSF detachment and be your Warlord to grant a Hatred Daemons bubble. I thin if you were to have him in a squad of Pallies like before, deep striking with the 4 Psycannons and then running to escape Demolisher Cannons and then shooting would work wonders. He's gotten better with the Titansword being AP2 and Str 7 or 9 depending on Hammerhand, but the lower toughness, BS and WS are annoying but not game breaking. He's worse against Daemons and Psykers with less than a 2+ save. That's about it.

Tyfus wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.

Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.

I seem to disagree all the time

Say hello to big IG blobs, or necron warriors jumping out from flyers, sw troops and deticated transport flyers etc, eldar jetbikes and wave serpents swooping in one at a time at the objective. In my games in 7.ed obejctive secured has been really important.

Honestly it depends on what you run. But with the above GK list IG wouldn't be around by turn 5. Necron Warriors would need bottom of turn and for it to end that turn. Jetbikes can be chased down by jump pack dreadknights w/H. Incinerators or by interceptors. Wave Serpents can't avoid the DK's. Not to mention that you can screen objectives to keep people 3" away. Obsec is good. It's not something I build my lists around.

And don't forget everyone that for just 20pts you can buy a comm-link now for re-rolls. So turn 1 your really could drop your entire army in on top of people (less the dude using the com-link) if you wanted to go that route.

 Hulksmash wrote:


Honestly it depends on what you run. But with the above GK list IG wouldn't be around by turn 5. Necron Warriors would need bottom of turn and for it to end that turn. Jetbikes can be chased down by jump pack dreadknights w/H. Incinerators or by interceptors. Wave Serpents can't avoid the DK's. Not to mention that you can screen objectives to keep people 3" away. Obsec is good. It's not something I build my lists around.

And don't forget everyone that for just 20pts you can buy a comm-link now for re-rolls. So turn 1 your really could drop your entire army in on top of people if you wanted to go that route.

Exactly, at this point its too easily countered to be something that you absolutely must have, its more of a nice bonus. All I have to do is get you out of that 3" bubble, and if you're using a blob squad it was unlikely I was going to get that objective anyway without some serious attention dedicated towards it.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/08/19/rumor-it-grey-knight-codex-rules-confirmations/

In case you missed it, all the pages are at the bottom of the page. Get it before the lawyer death squads take it down.

I believe about 20% of this.... The pages looks funny to me. Plus all inquisitorial units gone? What are they filling the book with then? Plus my Inquisitorial downloaded codex didn't come with any points values, you have to reference the Grey Knights book to get point values. Maybe my downloaded codex is the only one like that /shrug.

Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.

We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.

Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...

Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.

Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.

And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).

I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.

Diablix wrote:
Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.

We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.

Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...

Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.

Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.

And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).

I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.

I see people moan over lack of new units, stuff getting ripped out of the codex, and lack of balance. Not that they want GK to be more OP. And GK havent't been OP since 5.ed. But at the start of 7-ed after the FAQ i think they was at the right level.

And by the way - GK don't have any +1 inv bubble of 12". The sactuary +1 inv is only on psyker (and his unit). The demons however have a nice 12" bubble of +1 inv and no scatter in the cursed eart power. Of course they are bouth warp charge 1, so so much for GW balance.

Turn one reserves for deep striking?? Yes please. My army became useable again!! Awesome!!

Tyfus wrote:

I see people moan over lack of new units, stuff getting ripped out of the codex, and lack of balance. Not that they want GK to be more OP. And GK havent't been OP since 5.ed. But at the start of 7-ed after the FAQ i think they was at the right level.

I read a lot of whining about a nerfed useless codex, with people already swearing they will burn their GK army sacrificing it to the Dark Gods.
I read a very few people telling what you are stating. And honestly:

1) No new units: ok, I understand and agree on that. Frankly I don't feel like the Imperium is lacking choices, though. And it seems to me that GK alone already have any kind of toy bar drop pods.
2) Removed units: most of them were Inquisition units, that are pretty much available as a dataslate / allies. And don't tell me you have to buy another book, they are pretty much the same as before, you can live without the new book.

And by the way - GK don't have any +1 inv bubble of 12". The sactuary +1 inv is only on psyker (and his unit). The demons however have a nice 12" bubble of +1 inv and no scatter in the cursed eart power. Of course they are bouth warp charge 1, so so much for GW balance.

Yes, you're right, the bubble is only about daemons and difficult terrain (nothing useful, I agree).
However the Grey Knights have so many warp charges that you can easily spread it out to everyone needs it without much efforts.
And complaining about balance against daemons does not make sense at all, no one says that daemons or eldar are way too effective. But they are an old codex, and you don't fix an overpowered codex by releasing another one. So yes, daemons are too good, let's hope they will tune it down to the right level with the new codex.

By the way, before you say that Cursed Earth is a BRB book and daemons will have it nevertheless: yes, it's true, but since it will be their power sphere it is possible that the overall balance of the codex will take that in account. I know, it's GW, so it's unlikely, however I feel it's unfair to complain about something they probably didn't even start working on yet.

Diablix wrote:
Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.

We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.

Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...

Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.

Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.

And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).

I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.

1. Santuary is not a bubble.
2. They can't put "a lot" of S7 rending on the board now. The change to salvo renders psycannons expensive and terrible on PAGK.
3. How are you generating "20+ warp charges" without effort? Even combat squad shenanigans and two ML3 librarians wont get close to that in a reasonably pointed game. The loss of psychic pilot on tanks and transports ensured that.
4. Paying for a storm bolter and force sword on every troop isn't a benefit, it's a tax that's occasionally useful. There's a reason power weapons are largely out of the meta. AP3 simply isn't that great against anything but MEQ. You're every over-paying to kill easy stuff, or not hitting other things hard enough. It's a similar reason why Howling Banshees are lackluster, you're overpaying for power weapons on a squad that doesn't need that many. Furthermore, losing psybolts took away the one force multiplier GK had in the shooting phase. That helped offset their low model count.
5. Falling in line with Orks is not a good thing. AM and SW are vastly more competitive than either Orks or GK, largely because they have things the other two lack -- options.