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Maybe some of you more experienced painters can shed some light on the issue I'm experiencing.

I recently got myself Belial and started to paint him up. Not liking the "grimey" look acrylic washes cause even when careful, I went into oil washes. While I in the meantime grasp the basic concept, the result is pretty inferior for my tastes.
The bone colour goes, it seems, rather badly with brown. It looks more like a crust of dirt that collected in the recesses. This was especially noticeable in the back vents on the rear armor - it looked like someone stuffed some brown earth in there, was not even close to an even shading.

The steps I took:
1. prime
2. wait 24 hours
3. apply base coat (Ushabti Bone) to the armor areas
4. apply a gloss varnish via airbrush ('Ardcoat)
5. wait 24 hours
6. apply the oil wash as a pin wash (Maimeri Vandyke Brown with mineral spirits)
7. wait 1h, clean up
8. Tremble and despair

Wish I'd have taken a pic or two before throwing into some Simple Green in a fit of rage...

Edit: Also the thinner used for the oil wash should NOT attack the varnish, right? Cause I had it happen that, even after 24h+ drying time, the thinner dissolved the varnish and I accidentally rubbed of some of the underlying colour..

First of all, that paint isn't an oilpaint, its a vinyl/acrylic. This might have a bit to do with the problem with the pigments.

When it comes to the mineral spirits dissolving the varnish I have heard that this is the way it is. It might be better if you apply a good coat of varnish, perhaps two passes. And you should not rub to long in the same spot to help with dissolving the varnish.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize the search added a word. It's only the polycolor that isn't an oilbased paint.

Don't have any experience with Oil washes, but back to the Acrylics.

White/PVA Glue adds some 'pulling' properties to the mix.
Dish Soap adds a 'repulsion' effect to the mix forcing the wash off the raised bits (don't use Soap with a Degreaser in it).

Other players have recommended using various mediums, or even Floor Wax but I can't offer any advice beyond that they exist.

I've agree that they can look 'Grimey', but after some tips from other painters I learned it's usually from applying to little wash. I learned a few 'Control' techniques by applying a liberal amount of the wash, and then 'draining' the brush on a paper towel before using it to soak up the areas where I wanted to remove the excess wash. Having a clean cup of water around to wash off the ink on the other parts also helped get me a clean look.

Alternatively, Liquitex makes a fantastic range of acrylics that have a great pigment count for making my own washes. I usually keep a tube of 'Paynes Grey' Awesome black wash with just a tint of blue to simulate natural shadows, which is why the artist made the color in the first place.
'Burnt Sienna' for my Reds, and 'Raw Umber' for my Earth tones.

Liquitex also makes inks and they're really high in Pigment count. I purchased the Yellow one, to try it out and it functions more like a stain, and wasn't very good for washing. Did make an excellent 'Guide Coat' on White Primer. Don't recommend it, but only mentioned it in case you go check out the Acrylics and see it there.

I would ditch ardcoat in favor of Testors glosscote. You can airbrush or use rattle cans. I've used the latter without issue. You want to give the model a really good coat of varnish, two or three coats sprayed evenly just to make sure you hit all the nooks and crannies of the model. There is a good amount of people that swear by Johnson's Klear (floor wax), including veteran military modelers, but I have no experience with it. Supposedly it is also amazing.

Another issue that might be happening is that you're using too much mineral spirit when cleaning up the model. You actually need very little spirits on the brush, as too much will remove almost all of the oil paint.

Lastly, at least in my experience, I've had the blotchy effect occur when the oil paint has dried/set too quickly and I didn't realize it, and when I've gone to clean up or manipulate the oils it basically turned into me scrubbing the model with a drybrush. I use student's oils because I'm cheap (I think they may actually dry faster), and I can usually start cleaning up or manipulating the oil wash on the model within 30 minutes. I learned all of this through trial and error. Every paint line has different properties and you simply learn how they work through experience.

thanks for the advice, but I can already tell that none of those did hit the mark unfortunately.

Maimeri Classico is the same colour Buypainted uses... and we can tell they work, so it's not this

Interesting info on the acrylics. I want to get oil washes to work for me, so I'll give it some more shots... But if I just can't get it right, I'll def. go back to old faithful, stainy and re-build basecolour acrylics :/

Unfortunately those seem to be all US based brands and products.. saw them referenced more than once, but nothing I can get here in overseas. Just getting Simple Green for stripping resin burns a hole in your pocket... 20$ for a bottle! So this stuff is out of the question.
It's not the settling or scrubbing either - the back vents on terminator armor are quite narrow, and there is hardly any scubbing to be done there. I got me some high quality odourless white spirits today (W&N Sansodor), they seem to be a more mild solvent that takes longer to attack acrylics and dries slower - maybe it will help.

I'll go over the process again in the next days and if the issue rears its ugly head again I'll be sure to snap a pic.

IIRC mineral spirits will attack varnish. just not as much as it would on acrylic paints.

If you are pin washing it shouldn't really need too much cleaning. especially with a proper coat of gloss varnish.

Try it again and take pictures

Maybe you should clean it up faster, so that the pigments of the wash can't set on the surfaces you don't want them.
I just started to use oil washes and had the same problem: no sharp edges and it looks more like dirt in the gaps...
I did the same steps you mentioned(including step 8 several times....) but it never looked good. On my last test model, i cleaned it up immediately and the result looks much sharper and cleaner. Still not perfect, but much better.
I also bought a new thinner(a special product from Schmicke Malerbedarf called Terpentinersatz) yesterday, which should be very gentle to the acrylics.
Take some pics and let us know how it turned out.
Keep it up

I use oil washes only and I think you are close to getting good results. I use Mona Lisa brand which is artist grade mineral spirits and that's all I have ever used. I use very cheap oil paint...nothing fancy like Winsor Newton etc.

I do 5 models and then clean up with a gently rolling motion with the cotton swap soak heavily in mineral spirits. If you are scrubbing, you have probably waited too long and will need to need to roll over it several times to attempt to get the wash off of hightlights. I have never had an issue with rubbing off a base coat when using this method.

Also, not sure where you are buying Simple Green but $9.99 at Costco gets you a huge jug/spray bottle combo pack which lasts forever. Also, when stripping with Simple Green, I only use hot water and a splash of the cleaner....never full strength.

Good luck and keep going.

From the looks of it he is in Germany, so he doesn't have access to it the way we do here in the US (and maybe Canada?)

I also went to the German website for simple green, and a small bottle of it is 13 Euros :(

I've heard of people recycling their simple green after stripping by running it through a filter, such as a sieve or coffee filter. Apparently it loses some potency if you repeat this process too many times, but taking this into consideration could help justify that hefty price tag?

Boba Fett wrote:Maybe you should clean it up faster, so that the pigments of the wash can't set on the surfaces you don't want them.
I also bought a new thinner(a special product from Schmicke Malerbedarf called Terpentinersatz) yesterday, which should be very gentle to the acrylics.

Will try, but this time I'llbe very careful. I did some airbrush highlighting with Belial and I'm gonna go hulk smash if I have to strip him again!
Fun thing is: I've used exactly the same product I'll try the W&N one, a quick test seemed like it's even less harming than the Schminke version.

Rickfactor wrote:I use oil washes only and I think you are close to getting good results. I use Mona Lisa brand which is artist grade mineral spirits and that's all I have ever used. I use very cheap oil paint...nothing fancy like Winsor Newton etc.

So I need to be more gentle... Got that. Sansodor should help with that too. Problem however is if you don't have flat surfaces. Good example: the legs on Terminators. See (random found) attachment. With areas like these, you can't really get a cotton bud in there.. getting a good line is rather difficult, especially with even more hidden models like Belial.

AngularDeath wrote:
I also went to the German website for simple green, and a small bottle of it is 13 Euros :(

Exactly Most of the time I just use 98% alcohol to strip minis... just a few seconds removes the upper layer easily, but it doesn't peel off like SG does. It's more of a pain to clean and ultrasonic doesn't help.
From time to time I just need to get some SG, even if it hurts the wallet... But coffee filtering is worth a shot until I find something that replaces it.


However I still don't know what the issue is with the oil wash.
Maybe I didn't describe it well enough (quite likely). It's not like I can't clean it up, it's more after the pigment settles it looks.. just uneven. Not like a coat of paint, but more a grainy appearance. Like if you took the model and rubbed earth into the recesses. Maybe the DW colour scheme is especially unfriendly, going over a pretty light colour with a brown..
Which reminds me of something... I still do have an old ruined LR that I tried this with (stupid, I know)... Impossible to strip, so its a wreck. But it has the oil paints on it with the same effect. THAT is something I could snap a pic of and post it in a few hours once I get home!

Ok, time to correct some misinformation.

1. Oil washes WILL affect ANY type of clear coat that is lacquer or enamel based, in other words any product that is using some kind of chemical reaction to cause the material to dry, oil based products, "Ard Coat" is such a product. You need to use an acrylic water based clear coat between the Ard Coat and the oil paint, many will use a product called future floor polish, I know it is available in the UK/Europe but under a different name. Do a google search for "Swanny's complete future" and you will find a great article on its uses.

Second the "grainy" texture you are getting as the oil dries is a by product of thinning the oil paint to much, it is really difficult to say what the proper ratios are as each color is different, you will need to play around with it, but I am certain you are using to much thinner and not enough paint.

A.

Also, try out some different brands of odourless turpenine. I've noticed thequality can differ substantially. Also, more expensive paints tend to have better pigments, which might mean they're finer and thus diffuse better in the mix.

I don't a picture of my turpentines available, but here are the oil paints I use:

Redfinger wrote:Ok, time to correct some misinformation.

1. Oil washes WILL affect ANY type of clear coat that is lacquer or enamel based, in other words any product that is using some kind of chemical reaction to cause the material to dry, oil based products, "Ard Coat" is such a product. You need to use an acrylic water based clear coat between the Ard Coat and the oil paint, many will use a product called future floor polish, I know it is available in the UK/Europe but under a different name. Do a google search for "Swanny's complete future" and you will find a great article on its uses.

Second the "grainy" texture you are getting as the oil dries is a by product of thinning the oil paint to much, it is really difficult to say what the proper ratios are as each color is different, you will need to play around with it, but I am certain you are using to much thinner and not enough paint.

A.

1. What WHAT? Are you seriously telling me that EVERYTHING I read about oil washes basically lacked this VERY vital information? I've read dozens of threads and watched at least half a dozen videos and how to's and basically everyone was "apply a gloss varnish"... And aren't all Citadel brand colours water based? You pretty much shook my entire painting world here... Why isn't this mentioned far more often? l'll dig into that article and see what I can glean from it.

2. Oh thank ye, blessed lord! This is piece if information is what I have been looking for!

Meph wrote:Also, try out some different brands of odourless turpenine. I've noticed thequality can differ substantially. Also, more expensive paints tend to have better pigments, which might mean they're finer and thus diffuse better in the mix.]

Thanks, I'm trying a diff brand the next day or 2 (of thinner). The next I'll try is odourless, the other one was "only" erhm.. less... smelly?
Concerning oil colour, I choose the same as Buypainted, so I'm pretty sure the paint itself is fine.

I went to buy some better paints and better mineral spirits myself today to continue my own quest... but they were closed for summer... fortunately they thing that summer ends on monday

Citadel paints are water based, but the Ard Coat is a lacquer.

I use oils extensively, not being arrogant here, but I was prop ably one of the first people to start posting my minis that had been doin with oils on dakka here, prior to that I saw very few posts on the matter, not saying I am a trend setter by any means, just been doin it a while.

That being said there are corners you can cut to make things work. I have used oils directly on acrylics and on lacquer based coats with some success, but it was small areas, large washes like this really do benifit from a gloss coat. There are products by Vallejo and Tamyia that are water based and will leave a gloss finish.

Ask any other questions should you have them!

A.

I thought the whole thing with thinners/spirits eating your varnish or paints (depending on the type and pigments, etc.) was general hobby knowledge at this level, which is why everyone advocates giving the model a good gloss coat of gloss varnish. The gloss creates capillary action that allows the oil wash to run its course over the model, quickly filling any recesses, and I've found that you need very little of the wash when applying it to your models. If the model has a gloss coat, the real trick after that is getting the consistency of your oil wash right or to your liking, at least in my experience.

I've used Testor's glosscote as my gloss varnish and Winsor & Newton mineral spirits to make my oil washes for my vehicles and have had no issues. I don't think a water based acrylic varnish is absolutely necessary as long as you're not throwing the model into a tub of paint thinners when painting or oil washing. It makes complete sense from a chemistry standpoint, however.

Redfinger wrote:Citadel paints are water based, but the Ard Coat is a lacquer.

That being said there are corners you can cut to make things work. I have used oils directly on acrylics and on lacquer based coats with some success, but it was small areas, large washes like this really do benifit from a gloss coat. There are products by Vallejo and Tamyia that are water based and will leave a gloss finish.

Ask any other questions should you have them!

A.

That would explain so much. Every tutorial always was like "acrylics are completely safe with a glos coat" and I was like "'Duh, fo shizzle?"
I don't doubt you in any way, you certainly seem knowledgeable enough. But this would explain so many issues I had... I've been trying to get oil washes to work for me since... uh.. *checks posting history* 10/2013 and I was all struggling all the time. I always thought I'd have gotten the wrong thinner with it dissolving my gloss coat...
No tutorial EVER said that specifically need to use a water based varnish. It's so obivious in hindsight, but a HUGE trap. There are many painters that struggle with oil You should definately write an article about that here, could help so many aspiring painters. The frustration I felt... God-Emperor...
So let me get this straight.
Obviously 'Ardcoat is not applicable for this technique. If I get my hands on a water based varnish, I do not need another coat? Since someone mentioned acrylic-future polish - gloss varnish in this thread?
But.. hm.. If water based acrylics are not dissolved by white spirits, why did it rub off the miniature then? Guess it was just mechanical force rubbing it off...
Anyway, I'll definately go and hunt down a future floor polish substitute I found in the article you linked (and in the meantime look for other stuff). Unfotunately no store I know of stocks Vallejo, only Revell and Citadel. Time to order via internets

AngularDeath wrote:I thought the whole thing with thinners/spirits eating your varnish or paints (depending on the type and pigments, etc.) was general hobby knowledge at this level, which is why everyone advocates giving the model a good gloss coat of gloss varnish. The gloss creates capillary action that allows the oil wash to run its course over the model, quickly filling any recesses, and I've found that you need very little of the wash when applying it to your models. If the model has a gloss coat, the real trick after that is getting the consistency of your oil wash right or to your liking, at least in my experience.

I've used Testor's glosscote as my gloss varnish and Winsor & Newton mineral spirits to make my oil washes for my vehicles and have had no issues. I don't think a water based acrylic varnish is absolutely necessary as long as you're not throwing the model into a tub of paint thinners when painting or oil washing. It makes complete sense from a chemistry standpoint, however.

I got the drift that I need gloss coats. Works reasonable, but I didn't catch the laquer part. Problem is, again, that US products like Testors are hard to get here in Germany, so you can't just read up, walk 5 mins and get the product everyone uses.. from which many issues arise.
But is Testor's not a laquer, too? Shouldn't it be dissolved?
And since I'm home now, I'll go snap a pic of the old LR... If my phone decides using the camera is an option after it charged.
Finally, pic attached.

 Redfinger wrote:
Citadel paints are water based, but the Ard Coat is a lacquer.

Citation on that?

I don't typically disagree with you, but I do not think that is accurate. As far as I know, the 'Ardcoat that comes in the pot is no different than the offerings from Vallejo, Liquitex, and others except for the higher cost. I should note, however, that I have never used 'Ardcoat or any of the other "Technical Paints" they offer so I have no first hand experience with it but this is what GW says about it:

Games Workshop wrote:This pot contains 12ml of 'Ardcoat, one of 4 Technical paints in the Citadel Paint range. As with all of our paints, it is a non-toxic, water-based acrylic paint designed for use on plastic, metal, and resin Citadel miniatures.

Sorry, I assumed you were using the "spray can" of ard coat, not a brush on kind. Indeed the brush on is water based, why it is rubbing off I cant say.

As far as your picture goes, ya, you are probably thinning the oil too much. I have also found that the more smooth the gloss coat, the better the oil wash works.

A.

Well, thats too bad... Maybe the Vallejo one works better than the 'Ardcoat. But still, my original question was answered, which is pretty much anything I needed