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 Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: The reason you're not trying to bring down governments despite your great-grandparents losing their lands might be because you are living a fairly comfortable life in Britain, not still trapped in the same place they were with the people who took the land in question a stone's throw away. It's a little difficult for the Gazans to move on without leaving the area, something the desperate poverty and limitations on movement makes pretty damn difficult.

You seem pretty dead set on having no empathy for the Gazans though, so I may be through arguing with you on this point.

If I'm coming across as having no empathy for the Gazans, then that isn't my intent, and I'm giving off the wrong impression.

Conflict and poverty are horrible things. I was evicted from Zimbabwe with my entire family when I was a kid due to Mugabe's thugs threatening to shoot anyone caught living in my neighbourhood. I remember packing everything we could find in five minutes and travelling to a friends house outside of the dangerzone because we had no idea what was going to happen next. I've seen firsthand levels of poverty and starvation that people in the West are barely capable of intellectually conceiving. I once saw a man gunned down for the outrageous crime of being drunk and near President Mugabe's house at the wrong time of day.

I know just how tenuous and fragile the rule of law can be, and just how much for granted most people in Britain take things. So please, don't point at the fact that I now live in the UK and imply that my sheltered upbringing makes me unable to understand these things.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians in the West Bank, and the way they get forced off their land. I have a lot of time for Palestinians who get treated as second class citizens within Israel, and strongly feel that Israel needs to get it's game together there before it can be truly called a democracy. I believe that Israel should be a secular state, not a Jewish one. I believe that Gazans should be able to go to University, and not be blockaded in. I side with the Palestinians on many issues.

But at the same time, I look at Gaza Strip, and I see repeated attempts by Israel over the last twenty years, since the Accords of Oslo, to make Gaza into a self-governing, peaceful, independent nation. They dismantled their settlements. They make no claim to want to own it. Indeed, had they the choice, they'd ignore it altogether.

But the Gazans elected Hamas. They have continued to support and sustain Hamas. The ultimate reason Fatah got ousted was because Hamas had more support there than Fatah did. Violence was only part of that equation. And when your governing power is determined to war with a stronger power, the people will suffer. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish that Hamas didn't insist on stockpiling missiles inside hospitals and firing mortars next to schools. But at the same time, I understand that for the Israeli's to have any hope of safeguarding their citizens, citizens who currently spend half their day sitting in shelters, their lives disrupted whilst they wait for the all clear, they must strike back at those attacking them.

Having empathy for the Palestinians, is ultimately very easy. You look at a few pictures of casualties, and go 'Isn't this terrible!' Having empathy for those having to ditch their car in the middle of the road and go running for the nearest shelter in a panic every day is a lot harder, because there's a lot less obvious bloodshed and trauma. But empathy is required nonetheless.

I'm looking at the same situation and drawing very different conclusions, Ketara.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm looking at the same situation and drawing very different conclusions, Ketara.

Fair enough. The world would be a boring place if all were alike. I would however, appreciate you not accusing me of having no empathy. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't both abhor the waste of human life in situations like this.

I'm sorry for doing that. When you make statements about having no sympathy for the Gazans, it gets my back up, because of the polarised debate around this issue. The way you expressed yourself above is much clearer, and I shouldn't have assumed the worst the way I did.

I'll try and keep my temper in check in future- this issue seems to be particularly bad for getting me wound up and cranky.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify- I'd probably have stopped posting in sheer irritation in your position.

So were in to full fledged shelling of Gaza now then eh?

Well that's great. Israel sure likes perpetuating this conflict.

 Bullockist wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

I will say even with support vietnam.

Just going to pick this out to say something I noticed last night. I'm heavily into boardgames and was looking into one that has come out recently about Vietnam (Lake of Fire or something). Did you know that the flavour text says the massacre was of 22 civilians?

Big difference from a day of machine gunning and raping that ended in 300+ deaths.

Back on Israel and Hamas, Hamas is full of fething gak and I fething despise them. A terror group that managed to get into power over Israel making a mistake and not adhering to a peace deal, and then making it impossible to be removed from power so they can keep hitting the big bad Izzie. Hamas don't give a flying gak about the people of Palestine.

Israels leadership I also have a distinct dislike for, but it's a lot less currently than with Hamas. On both sides though, I just feel bad for the people being used by their respective leaders. Israel just have the ability to defend and attack far better than anything Hamas could hope for.

On a complete side note, I would love to visit Israel some day. And even though its purpose is depressing, I would love to see the Iron Dome in real life.

Gonna have to disagree, if it was your countrty taken over and the occypying ( i cannot spell ) power treated your people like gak over 3 generations how would you react?
I'd be with hamas
you have some witches maiming your populous or saomeone who might get you free...after 50 years that has to seem like a good deal. I've read books by left wing Israelis and it isn't kind to the state.

And If I were Israel I would have firebombed your ass by now with nothing absolutely nothing being alive in Gaza now. Whats your point?

Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

Thats not bluster. Why do you think thats bluster? Empires used to do that all the time.

This will not end until one side or the other is dead or they have agreed to become one nation. Hamas wants to exterminate Israel. Many in Israel want to exterminate Hamas. The people who are smart just get the hell out of there.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

Thats not bluster. Why do you think thats bluster? Empires used to do that all the time.

This will not end until one side or the other is dead or they have agreed to become one nation. Hamas wants to exterminate Israel. Many in Israel want to exterminate Hamas. The people who are smart just get the hell out of there.

Doing that now in an age of Nukes usually means far worse cause and effect.

Or at least when you go from Skirmishes to full blown War.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

Thats not bluster. Why do you think thats bluster? Empires used to do that all the time.

This will not end until one side or the other is dead or they have agreed to become one nation. Hamas wants to exterminate Israel. Many in Israel want to exterminate Hamas. The people who are smart just get the hell out of there.

And where would they go? are you offering to take them in and let them move next door?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This thread unexpectedly went back to (mostly) being reasonable.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

Thats not bluster. Why do you think thats bluster? Empires used to do that all the time.

This will not end until one side or the other is dead or they have agreed to become one nation. Hamas wants to exterminate Israel. Many in Israel want to exterminate Hamas. The people who are smart just get the hell out of there.

And where would they go? are you offering to take them in and let them move next door?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Once upon a time, America cared less about where people came from.

Today, we cannot even decide what to do with people coming here and/or how to classify them.

This was interesting. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/31/world/middleeast/in-gaza-a-pattern-of-conflict.html

 WarOne wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Hey look, it's that inhumane, insane bluster again!

Thats not bluster. Why do you think thats bluster? Empires used to do that all the time.

This will not end until one side or the other is dead or they have agreed to become one nation. Hamas wants to exterminate Israel. Many in Israel want to exterminate Hamas. The people who are smart just get the hell out of there.

And where would they go? are you offering to take them in and let them move next door?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Once upon a time, America cared less about where people came from.

Today, we cannot even decide what to do with people coming here and/or how to classify them.

Right near the Statue of Liberty we had Ellis Island. Where vast majority immigrants were examined, filed, and processed into the US

As for Hamas and Israel. How many here have lived under the situation. Very and I mean very few of us have live under rocket and mortar attacks where a good chunk of indig population willing to kill you

sirlynchmob wrote:
And where would they go? are you offering to take them in and let them move next door?

An awful lot of Palestinians have emigrated to the US, yes.

But no. I think their Arab neighbors who screech about the Palestinian cause and the abomination that is Israel day in and day out should take them. Except they won't. Their borders are harder to get across if you're a Palestinian than, ironically, Israel's.

Most of the arabic neighbours couldn't care less about the Palestinian people except as a brickbat to throw at the Israelis. To them, the Palestinians are nothing more than a convenient verbal weapon they can utilise at the UN. Beyond that, they quite simply do not want to know.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28628682#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa


Looks like the UN got nailed again. Thus far IDF has not commented on this one, but frankly we're deep into 'making war on civilians' at this point.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28628682#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa


Looks like the UN got nailed again. Thus far IDF has not commented on this one, but frankly we're deep into 'making war on civilians' at this point.

That is exactly what is going on. I can picture it now, over at Israeli General HQ....

'Hey sir! There's a group of orphans with terminal cancer congregating at this location!
'Excellent work Captain Yakov! Take half a dozen aircraft and kill every last one of them! Make it rain with blood! Don't you just love making war on civilians?'
'Sir, it's the only reason I get up in the morning'.

I am so damn glad I don't live over there in the middle of all that crap. On the Palistinian side, I envision the fear of having people next door storing weapons in their house, or in a school, hospital, etc. and making attacks from those buildings, endangering the children within. I also try to imagine the degree of frustration and hate there must be of having been displaced when Israel was refounded and land that had been in the family for generations, taken.
On the Israeli side, having no where else to feel attached to after enduring centuries of pograms and also having had land taken and neighbors they thought were friends turning on them like animals, feeling like Israel is their hope and promise for survival.

A bit of a list on Jewish persecution:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

I'll be straight up and say my sympathies lie mainly with Israel, but, I don't enjoy seeing what is happening to the Palistinians, either.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:
I think it needs to be considered that trhe Palestinian people have no part of this (omg it's the one issue I'm serious on ) and suffer accordingly.
Egypt attacked Israel, Israel occupied gaza. 50 years on they are still there. Making the population live like gak.
If that was my country I KNOW where I would be.

You guys from the US . Why is Israel integral to US defence? I believe I read this this week, if not before.
From my point of view Israel is anti- US interest in the region as it gets EVERYONE else offside in the region.
Why support 1 country that gets everyone else in the region offside?

Israel left Gaza in 2005. So...you're completely wrong. Sorry.

Usual BS answer there Nuggz.

Technically Israel left gGaza in 2005, as in they moved out settlers, and it a remote technicality too.

However they did not:
- dismantle roadblocks
- stop overflying with military aircraft at will
- stop sending in tanks and troops at will
- stop blockading the region of essential goods, and Israel still maintains a blockade list of goods it will not allow into Gaza, most of which are harmless like paper.

Israel hasn't left Gaza, its merely pulled the settlers out and got its mouthpieces to say it has left Gaza,

Israel will have pulled out of Gaza when Gaza is free, when people can come and go and trade without Israeli interference. When Israel stops blocking the Gazan's and other Palestinian's right to representation and sovereign status.

 Ketara wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: The reason you're not trying to bring down governments despite your great-grandparents losing their lands might be because you are living a fairly comfortable life in Britain, not still trapped in the same place they were with the people who took the land in question a stone's throw away. It's a little difficult for the Gazans to move on without leaving the area, something the desperate poverty and limitations on movement makes pretty damn difficult.

You seem pretty dead set on having no empathy for the Gazans though, so I may be through arguing with you on this point.

If I'm coming across as having no empathy for the Gazans, then that isn't my intent, and I'm giving off the wrong impression.

Conflict and poverty are horrible things. I was evicted from Zimbabwe with my entire family when I was a kid due to Mugabe's thugs threatening to shoot anyone caught living in my neighbourhood. I remember packing everything we could find in five minutes and travelling to a friends house outside of the dangerzone because we had no idea what was going to happen next. I've seen firsthand levels of poverty and starvation that people in the West are barely capable of intellectually conceiving. I once saw a man gunned down for the outrageous crime of being drunk and near President Mugabe's house at the wrong time of day.

I know just how tenuous and fragile the rule of law can be, and just how much for granted most people in Britain take things. So please, don't point at the fact that I now live in the UK and imply that my sheltered upbringing makes me unable to understand these things.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians in the West Bank, and the way they get forced off their land. I have a lot of time for Palestinians who get treated as second class citizens within Israel, and strongly feel that Israel needs to get it's game together there before it can be truly called a democracy. I believe that Israel should be a secular state, not a Jewish one. I believe that Gazans should be able to go to University, and not be blockaded in. I side with the Palestinians on many issues.

But at the same time, I look at Gaza Strip, and I see repeated attempts by Israel over the last twenty years, since the Accords of Oslo, to make Gaza into a self-governing, peaceful, independent nation. They dismantled their settlements. They make no claim to want to own it. Indeed, had they the choice, they'd ignore it altogether.

But the Gazans elected Hamas. They have continued to support and sustain Hamas. The ultimate reason Fatah got ousted was because Hamas had more support there than Fatah did. Violence was only part of that equation. And when your governing power is determined to war with a stronger power, the people will suffer. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish that Hamas didn't insist on stockpiling missiles inside hospitals and firing mortars next to schools. But at the same time, I understand that for the Israeli's to have any hope of safeguarding their citizens, citizens who currently spend half their day sitting in shelters, their lives disrupted whilst they wait for the all clear, they must strike back at those attacking them.

Having empathy for the Palestinians, is ultimately very easy. You look at a few pictures of casualties, and go 'Isn't this terrible!' Having empathy for those having to ditch their car in the middle of the road and go running for the nearest shelter in a panic every day is a lot harder, because there's a lot less obvious bloodshed and trauma. But empathy is required nonetheless.

Exalted... pretty much sums up where I'm coming from, but in a much more concise, tactful manner.

 Orlanth wrote:


Usual BS answer there Nuggz.

Technically Israel left gGaza in 2005, as in they moved out settlers, and it a remote technicality too.

However they did not:
- dismantle roadblocks

So you're saying that there are Israeli police/soldiers manning roadblocks within Gaza Strip all year around? Can I have a source on that please?

- stop overflying with military aircraft at will

Fair enough on that one, although I'm not entirely sure that ignoring airspace rights quite equates to occupying Gaza.

- stop sending in tanks and troops at will

They only send in troops when they have to, aka when Hamas starts firing off missiles into Israel. Bad things tend to happen to Israeli squads that wander around backstreets in Gaza. Troops are not a constant presence there, except when hostilities have been engaged in.

- stop blockading the region of essential goods, and Israel still maintains a blockade list of goods it will not allow into Gaza, most of which are harmless like paper.

See, I still sort of agree with the Israelis on this one. The people were free to elect a Government, and they elected a Government dedicated to the overthrow of Israel. But that action had consequences, because being an openly hostile Government to your neighbours means that sometimes they enact blockades. If you don't want a blockade, don't elect a hostile Government.

Israel hasn't left Gaza, its merely pulled the settlers out

Wait, what? They've pulled out all their guys, but they haven't left?

Israel will have pulled out of Gaza when Gaza is free,

They rule themselves. So they're free in that regard.

when people can come and go and trade without Israeli interference.

I think you need to differentiate between a 'blockade' and an 'occupation'. The two are different things. The Israelis left Gaza. Just because they continue to have an effect on the economy of Gaza doesn't mean they own or occupy Gaza.

When Israel stops blocking the Gazan's and other Palestinian's right to representation and sovereign status.

See, I'm against Israel continuing to block Palestine being recognised independently at the UN. I just don't equate that with Israel occupying Gaza. I just see it as.....well, Israel blocking recognition of Palestine at the UN.

 Ketara wrote:

That is exactly what is going on. I can picture it now, over at Israeli General HQ....

'Hey sir! There's a group of orphans with terminal cancer congregating at this location!
'Excellent work Captain Yakov! Take half a dozen aircraft and kill every last one of them! Make it rain with blood! Don't you just love making war on civilians?'
'Sir, it's the only reason I get up in the morning'.

It's certainly better than the conversation after the "action" is done....


"I love the smell of napalm in the morning! This one time, they were dug in real deep, in a hospital and a school.... It smells like... Victory"

Who is this Sean Hannity witch and why has nobody shot him?

 Medium of Death wrote:




Who is this Sean Hannity witch and why has nobody shot him?

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization... yes or no?

I say:

Well you being on the same level of Hannity isn't surprising.

Congratulations?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Well you being on the same level of Hannity isn't surprising.

Congratulations?

What level is that?

That we share the same opinion? Cool.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28632287

It gets better and better...

IDF's justification is that three members of Islamic Jihad were seen near by on a motorcycle. Admittedly, that's one fairly overloaded bike, but giving them the benefit of the doubt on that there's still a massive level of WTF....


Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

Gaza...



is looking kinda familiar....






"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

Gaza...



is looking kinda familiar....



"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Yes. There are no Hamas missiles. There are no infiltration tunnels designed to have people pop out and kill civilians. It is an illusive political fabrication designed to justify war, but using your superior skills, you have seen what we cannot.

"The truth." Dumbledore sighed. "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution."
— J.K. Rowling (Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (Harry Potter, #1))

 Ketara wrote:



Yes. There are no Hamas missiles. There are no infiltration tunnels designed to have people pop out and kill civilians.

Let's put some context into this however.

Thus far, Hamas' rockets have killed exactly 1 Israeli civilian. Another one was killed by mortar fire on an Israeli military checkpoint. There have been a total of ~65 Israeli dead, a majority of those are IDF that entered Gaza. Thus far every emergence from a tunnel into Israeli territory has been either immediately noticed and destroyed, or have only thus far engaged IDF targets.

Meanwhile there have been 1200-1800 Gazan's killed, with most sources considering the bulk of those as civilian casualties, even the IDF won't confirm a majority of those killed aren't civilians.

I mean, I'm not saying Hamas aren't some serious scumbags, they are, but ah...something is off here.